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Anachronisms

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Anita Davison
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An Attempt to Avoid.....

Post by Anita Davison » Tue December 16th, 2008, 10:39 pm

...an anachronism.

Does anyone know when the term, 'He bats for the other side' was first used In England to describe a gay man?

I want to use this in a Victorian novel but I cannot find out when it originated - :confused: anyone have any ideas???
Anita Davison
Proofread carefully to see if you any words out ~ Unknown

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Tue December 16th, 2008, 11:31 pm

[quote=""gyrehead""] That and the "mom" and "dad" that some authors throw into their early medieval work.

[/quote]

Dad is medieval, but because it sounds modern, it can have the effect of dragging readers out of the story, even though it's correct. It's recorded i.e. written down from 1500, but has probably been around much longer than that.
I have several medieval recipes for Lasagne. I'd have to check on their dating, but I think they were around long before Marco Polo.
I am pondering whether to use Dad in some form in my next work. It's in the rough draft for a toddler just learning to speak, but it may not make the final cut. We shall see. If it does make the final cut, then detailed explanations are going into the author's note!!! :D
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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sweetpotatoboy
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Post by sweetpotatoboy » Wed December 17th, 2008, 12:07 pm

[quote=""Anita Davison""]...an anachronism.

Does anyone know when the term, 'He bats for the other side' was first used In England to describe a gay man?

I want to use this in a Victorian novel but I cannot find out when it originated - :confused: anyone have any ideas???[/quote]

I looked in the OED but there's no reference there to this phrase. It's often difficult to get dating for such expressions, as they are frequently in use in speech long before they make it into print. (and even when it is in print, there's always the danger of reading a modern meaning into it when it isn't there). There's nothing in Brewer's either... Sorry can't be of more help.

Anita Davison
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Post by Anita Davison » Wed December 17th, 2008, 3:17 pm

[quote=""sweetpotatoboy""]I looked in the OED but there's no reference there to this phrase. It's often difficult to get dating for such expressions, as they are frequently in use in speech long before they make it into print. (and even when it is in print, there's always the danger of reading a modern meaning into it when it isn't there). There's nothing in Brewer's either... Sorry can't be of more help.[/quote]

Many thanks for looking, I cannot find it anywhere either. Hopefully as it's so difficult to locate, I may be able to get away with using it.
Have a Good Christmas
Anita Davison
Proofread carefully to see if you any words out ~ Unknown

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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Wed December 17th, 2008, 3:49 pm

Hmm, I would say absolutely DON'T use it. Sounds far too modern, it would be jaring. Try some period slang if at all possible.

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sweetpotatoboy
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Post by sweetpotatoboy » Wed December 17th, 2008, 4:10 pm

I'm inclined to agree. Bear in mind that, in Victorian times (and WAY beyond), "batting for the other side" constituted a criminal activity. So, I somewhat doubt it would have been referred to as lightly/jocularly as that expression suggests.

Anita Davison
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Thanks

Post by Anita Davison » Wed December 17th, 2008, 5:35 pm

I know this was used in the 1920's and homosexuality was illegal then too.
I shall have to do some more research and find out how else it was referred to in public schools in the 1880's!!

Thanks for your advice, Happy Christmas Everyone
Anita Davison
Proofread carefully to see if you any words out ~ Unknown

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Post by Ash » Sat December 27th, 2008, 9:55 pm

Im reading a book about Queen Isabelle of Spain. Early in her marriage to Ferdinand, he complains about being her King; that other men will say he was a ‘King in Petticoats’. It didn’t strike me at first, but thinking on it - I associate petticoats with much later times than 1475. Was this an anachronism, or was it something that honeslty might have been said in that time period about a consort to the queen?

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MLE (Emily Cotton)
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Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Sat December 27th, 2008, 10:04 pm

[quote=""Ash""]Im reading a book about Queen Isabelle of Spain. Early in her marriage to Ferdinand, he complains about being her King; that other men will say he was a ‘King in Petticoats’. It didn’t strike me at first, but thinking on it - I associate petticoats with much later times than 1475. Was this an anachronism, or was it something that honeslty might have been said in that time period about a consort to the queen?[/quote]
One of the problems with 'verbal anachronisms' in this case, and in the case of all non-English-speaking countries, is that whatever King Ferdinand said, it would have been in Spanish. So the writer would be supplying a translation of his imagined comments. And of course, the translation would not be into the English of the day, since the modern reader would not be conversant with the usages and nuances. So the writer is, in effect, giving you a modern take on what a renaissance-era monarch would be saying.

to be perfectly correct, Ferd would say he was 'un Rey en enaguas'.

annis
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Post by annis » Sun December 28th, 2008, 5:48 am

I wonder what a Victorian version of "batting for the other side" would have been? The Victorians were very keen on the use of secret flower language, quite a bit of it relating to sex. Oscar Wilde once referred to a couple of young men of his acquaintance as "flowers of the narcissus kind" which was a clear reference to their homosexuality. The word "pansy" was used later, I think, more into the C20th, and may have been a corruption of the Victorian slang term "nancy" or "nancy-boy" which was used to describe someone homosexual.
Last edited by annis on Sun December 28th, 2008, 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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