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A Place Beyond Courage

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Fri March 20th, 2009, 9:33 pm

Ash, glad you enjoyed 'Courage'.
From my perspective I don't think I portrayed John as almost too perfect at all. I'd say he was flawed and I showed those flaws - but as I say, that's my perspective and I thoroughly respect your opinion.
Was talking to SKP the other day and she said she thought this was my 'Richard III' novel as far as redressing a balance went.
Aline... I met Aline in the ether, same as Sybilla and I wrote as I found. With a bit of hindsight and ongoing research, I would say that perhaps I would give Aline just a little more variety in her character but that the basic characteristics would not change. I also feel now, to quote an English phrase that she 'wasn't all there with her cough drops,' i.e. she was a bit simple - but she was an heiress and needs must when you're an ambitious guy and you've hit the glass ceiling at court. I do think that as 21stC readers we tend to gravitate towards strong women from history - as many of them indeed were, but that there were mice too, and Aline was one of them. Even in this day and age they are still around - I know a couple of them and one in particular would be very similar to Aline if you took her and set her down in the 12thC.
John's older sons. Walter died in manhood before his father - cause unknown. Gilbert survived his father by a couple of years to become the Marshal but he too died and John's eldest son John took over. I've recently been reading the pipe rolls of Henry II and Gilbert and his half brother John seemed to have been in some sort of dispute or monetary remunatory transactions concerned with the division of their father's lands after his death in 1165. It gave me a poignant shock to read of John Senior: 'Sed Mortuus est.'
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Telynor
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Post by Telynor » Sat March 21st, 2009, 3:52 am

Aline, I think, was very much a product of her times -- she was very obdient, and considering how religious medieval culture was, her behaviour wouldn't have seemed odd at all. I do think she would have been far happier as a nun, rather than being a secular lady. (Medieval monasticism is one of my interests, I fear)

This is one of the reasons why I like EC's novels so much. All too often writers ditch religion in fiction, and either go to extremes in one direction or another. Either religion is controlling and bad, or it's so drenched in sweetness that I end up throwing the book at the wall. One of my pet peeves is how Judaism in the medieval period gets chewed up and -wrong,- and the same thing with religion for the everyday person. I suspect that the reality was much closer to what we have today, with some people being very devout, others hardly at all, and every thing in between -- and a lot of people making a show of believing to fit in with the community around them.

Ash
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Post by Ash » Sat March 21st, 2009, 2:34 pm

Was talking to SKP the other day and she said she thought this was my 'Richard III' novel as far as redressing a balance went.

Funny, I was thinking the same. No, I enjoyed him, and enjoyed how you presented him. There were just a few times I thought he was too good to be true.

I met Aline in the ether, same as Sybilla and I wrote as I found.

You mention this in your author notes and I don't think I quite understand. Coud you explain more?


I do think that as 21stC readers we tend to gravitate towards strong women from history - as many of them indeed were, but that there were mice too, and Aline was one of them. Even in this day and age they are still around - I know a couple of them and one in particular would be very similar to Aline if you took her and set her down in the 12thC.

You are probably right. I guess I tend to avoid such people or aren't in situations where I might meet them! I do understand why he married her, and why he had to divorce her.

John's older sons. Walter died in manhood before his father - cause unknown. Gilbert survived his father by a couple of years to become the Marshal but he too died and John's eldest son John took over.

Oh - I just made a connection to another book, Marriage of Megotta. Have you read this? The young boy in the story is their nephew and even mentions this happening.

It gave me a poignant shock to read of John Senior: 'Sed Mortuus est.

Translate please?

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Sat March 21st, 2009, 3:02 pm

[quote=""Ash""]
I met Aline in the ether, same as Sybilla and I wrote as I found.[/I]

You mention this in your author notes and I don't think I quite understand. Coud you explain more?
Best thing to do for this is to go to this url at my blog which explains a bit about it
http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwic ... ntrol.html

There is also a lot more about it on my website at this url:
http://www.elizabethchadwick.com/akashic_record.html

It may sound mad, but I have more than four years' of evidence built up now and almost all of it gells. Currently just doing early work on the Empress Matilda and Brian FitzCount and it's proving spot on and and in depth thus far - in fact astonishingly so.
John's older sons. Walter died in manhood before his father - cause unknown. Gilbert survived his father by a couple of years to become the Marshal but he too died and John's eldest son John took over.

Oh - I just made a connection to another book, Marriage of Megotta. Have you read this? The young boy in the story is their nephew and even mentions this happening.
I have read The Marriage of Megotta (and enjoyed it a lot) but a long time ago, so the specifics are vague! To do with Hubert de Burgh isn't it?
It gave me a poignant shock to read of John Senior: 'Sed Mortuus est.

Translate please?
[/quote]

Basically 'He is dead.' :(
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Madeleine
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Post by Madeleine » Mon March 23rd, 2009, 12:30 pm

Just out of interest EC, do you know what John died of?

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Mon March 23rd, 2009, 4:39 pm

[quote=""Madeleine""]Just out of interest EC, do you know what John died of?[/quote]

No, sorry Madeleine, I don't. I did ask Alison to have a look and she said bad fish stew - as in bacterial food poisoning, but of course, although that explains it to me, it's not admissable in the historical record. he would have been around 60 years old at the time.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Madeleine
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Currently reading: "The Comforts of Home" by Susan Hill
Preferred HF: Plantagenets, Victorian, crime
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Post by Madeleine » Mon March 23rd, 2009, 5:53 pm

[quote=""EC2""]No, sorry Madeleine, I don't. I did ask Alison to have a look and she said bad fish stew - as in bacterial food poisoning, but of course, although that explains it to me, it's not admissable in the historical record. he would have been around 60 years old at the time.[/quote]

Thanks EC, it sounds a bit of an anti-climactic way to go considering all the battles he fought...I hope it was quick though.

sharon
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A Place Beyond Courage

Post by sharon » Mon October 12th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Hi, all. I just wanted to spread the word that Elizabeth has put up a biography of John Marshal on her blog, complete with photos (none of John, alas) and an interactive map. I suspect JM is very pleased with you, EC, smiling down from Heaven or up from Hell :) http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwic ... rshal.html

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Mon October 12th, 2009, 1:55 pm

[quote=""sharon""]Hi, all. I just wanted to spread the word that Elizabeth has put up a biography of John Marshal on her blog, complete with photos (none of John, alas) and an interactive map. I suspect JM is very pleased with you, EC, smiling down from Heaven or up from Hell :) http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwic ... rshal.html[/quote]

:o Thanks Sharon! I tell you, if I could obtain copyright, there would be illustrative pictures of John's modern lookalike Damien Van Zyl all over the place, but I suspect I'd need to be a million seller to afford the fees! So I've made do with my own photographs. As for John, I'm sure he'll know. Even beyond this world he's a hands on guy! :)
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Miss Moppet
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Post by Miss Moppet » Mon October 12th, 2009, 2:48 pm

wow, so Winston Churchill was descended from John Marshal! Was that through William and his daughters or one of John's other children?

ps: I just did an image search for Damien van Zyl. Thanks EC for brightening my day!

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