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Who do you think did in the princes in the tower?

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Libby
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Post by Libby » Sat January 17th, 2009, 6:25 pm

[quote=""EC2""]As a Lancastrian born and bred I am not so sure about that! LOL! :D [/quote]

Well you know that I'm a Lancastrian born and bred as well, EC and I used to believe the story that Richard was a wicked uncle and a tyrant king. But then I began to research the Wars of the Roses and like St Paul on the road to Damascus I had a complete and utter change of opinion. I've read authors who are for and against him and weighed up the opinions and the evidence. I've visited Middleham and York and talked to people about him and I think that a man who was, and still is, held in such high esteem by people who knew him well and dealt with him on a regular basis cannot possibly deserve the reputation that popular history has given him, partly because of what seems to have been a protracted smear campaign and the popularity of Shakespeare's fictional version of events.

You won't find anyone in Yorkshire who has a bad thing to say about him - and there are a good number of Lancastrians (those with historical knowledge of the period) who will also acknowledge that he was a good and fair man who doesn't deserve to be remembered as a villain. He ruled as a lord of the north in that area for many years and I believe that collective memory of him as a good and decent and clean living man is not something that can easily be dismissed. I believe that collective memory and what is passed down from generation to generation probably has more truth than some of what has survived in writing - given that the survival of what is written may be more selective. And when you consider that most of the influential men of York defied Henry VII to sign their names to a document that deplored the murder of Richard, possibly knowing that they were putting their lives on the line, then you have to acknowledge that support for Richard from people who knew him was very, very strong.

The people who plotted against him seem to have done so for their own gain, and rumours about him only spread in the south of the country and abroad where people didn't know him. The Stanleys have a lot to answer for. They were a big factor in Richard's downfall. As a Lancastrian I ought to be supporting them, but I'm not. My family originally come from Yorkshire anyway so I've been told. :D
By Loyalty Bound - the story of the mistress of Richard III.

http://www.elizabethashworth.com

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Sat January 17th, 2009, 7:02 pm

Actually I tend to sit on the fence. I've listened to arguments on both sides of it. Richard III was evidently not an evil hunchback with nothing but child murder on his mind, but neither was he Saint Richard as some would have us think. I had stints in both camps when I was younger (I was taught he was the bad guy at school and then I read various bits of work that gave him ye false halo) and I have come out the other side and am neither one nor the other.
I do think it's long past time for a good, balanced novel on Henry VII though.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

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Libby
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Post by Libby » Sat January 17th, 2009, 7:51 pm

[quote=""EC2""]
I do think it's long past time for a good, balanced novel on Henry VII though.[/quote]

You keep saying that! :D I think you may have to tackle it yourself.
By Loyalty Bound - the story of the mistress of Richard III.

http://www.elizabethashworth.com

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Sat January 17th, 2009, 8:09 pm

[quote=""Libby""]You keep saying that! :D I think you may have to tackle it yourself.[/quote]

Nah, it would involve way too much research into a period others know a lot more about! Do you fancy it Boswell?

I'm heading earlier next time - Edith Swan Neck

Years and years ago (1972) the BBC did an excellent drama series on Henry VII but it seems to have been forgotten. The Shadow of the Tower was excellent.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0380953/
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Sat January 17th, 2009, 8:37 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Actually I tend to sit on the fence. I've listened to arguments on both sides of it. Richard III was evidently not an evil hunchback with nothing but child murder on his mind, but neither was he Saint Richard as some would have us think. I had stints in both camps when I was younger (I was taught he was the bad guy at school and then I read various bits of work that gave him ye false halo) and I have come out the other side and am neither one nor the other.
I do think it's long past time for a good, balanced novel on Henry VII though.[/quote]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that Richard was on the whole a good person and conscientious leader, but not above some dirty dealings and so on.

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Post by Misfit » Sat January 17th, 2009, 8:40 pm

I'm heading earlier next time - Edith Swan Neck
Really and truly??? That would be very cool.

There really must be some middle ground on Richard. All the novels coming out these days make him so divine and pure its just over the top, but I doubt he's that evil hunchback the Tudors made him out to be either.

I think BB's got something in the works on the Wars of The Roses. When we'll see it though.....

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boswellbaxter
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Post by boswellbaxter » Sat January 17th, 2009, 8:40 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Nah, it would involve way too much research into a period others know a lot more about! Do you fancy it Boswell?

I'm heading earlier next time - Edith Swan Neck

Years and years ago (1972) the BBC did an excellent drama series on Henry VII but it seems to have been forgotten. The Shadow of the Tower was excellent.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0380953/[/quote]

Somewhere down the line, it might be fun!

Will have to see if Shadow of the Tower is on DVD, now that I have a DVD player that will play UK disks!
Susan Higginbotham
Coming in October: The Woodvilles


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Christina
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Post by Christina » Sat January 17th, 2009, 10:52 pm

LOL EC2 and Libby :-) My father is Lancastrian, my mother Yorkist so I guess there's a whole Tudor rose in there somewhere!

I think there is something of a backlash against what history has done to Richard. Yes, Volgadon, I agree that there were dubious dealings going on - it kind of went with the job of being king in those days (or in power today!). But I do think, weighing up the odds in a period with which I am not really qualified to speak, Henry had more to gain by the murder of the princes than Richard did. Richard had done a great deal of good - particularly for the North. He had set up courts of law in English, rather than Latin so people knew what they were accused of; had done away with many taxes, and a great deal more that actually helped people. Henry's claim to the throne was so weak that he could only take it by force. He was so nasty to poor Katherine of Aragon...and his son, Henry VIII was even worse...Of all the Tudors, only Elizabeth comes out as okay and the dynasty was so short-lived that, if one believes in karma, one cannot help but think....hmmm about Henry VII's vast ambition...

It would be really interesting to read a novel about Henry VII, if someone will write one :-)

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boswellbaxter
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Post by boswellbaxter » Sun January 18th, 2009, 12:18 am

[quote=""Misfit""]Really and truly??? That would be very cool.

There really must be some middle ground on Richard. All the novels coming out these days make him so divine and pure its just over the top, but I doubt he's that evil hunchback the Tudors made him out to be either.

I think BB's got something in the works on the Wars of The Roses. When we'll see it though.....[/quote]

Hopefully it'll be finished by the middle of this year. Told by Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham, and his wife, Katherine Woodville, sister to the queen. When it gets tidied up I'll put an excerpt on my website.

Other than The Sunne in Splendour, I thought Reay Tannahill's The Seventh Son was a pretty good portrayal of Richard--sympathetic but not a whitewash like some of the sappier portrayals of him. I like Brenda Honeyman's novel about him too--published as Richard Plantagenet and as Richard by the Grace of God.
Susan Higginbotham
Coming in October: The Woodvilles


http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/
http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Sun January 18th, 2009, 12:46 am

[quote=""boswellbaxter""]Hopefully it'll be finished by the middle of this year. Told by Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham, and his wife, Katherine Woodville, sister to the queen. When it gets tidied up I'll put an excerpt on my website.

Other than The Sunne in Splendour, I thought Reay Tannahill's The Seventh Son was a pretty good portrayal of Richard--sympathetic but not a whitewash like some of the sappier portrayals of him. I like Brenda Honeyman's novel about him too--published as Richard Plantagenet and as Richard by the Grace of God.[/quote]

Cool, sounds good. I've had The Seventh Son on my list for ages, but the library doesn't have it. Will have to try for another ILL soon.

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