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October 2008: The Devil's Brood by Sharon Kay Penman

A monthly discussion on varying themes guided by our members. (Book of the Month discussions through December 2011 can be found in this section too.)
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boswellbaxter
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Post by boswellbaxter » Sun October 12th, 2008, 11:47 pm

From what I've read about the historical Berengaria, she was anything but stupid or sweetly insipid. Elizabeth Hallam in the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes, "She emerges from the sources as an intelligent, pious, and quietly determined person, tenacious in adversity, an active ruler of her lands, well able to gain and use allies and defenders, and strikingly generous to the religious orders even by the standards of her day."

Unfortunately, intelligence, piety, and quiet determination aren't "sexy" qualities, so it's all too easy for historical novelists to dismiss Berengaria as a nonentity, especially in contrast to her more more flamboyant and colorful in-laws.
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Ash
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Post by Ash » Sun October 12th, 2008, 11:53 pm

Speaking of Here Be Dragons, what I think will be fascinating is that this next book will bring it all full circle; to King John's daughter and Llywellyn the Great. It might just give me an excuse (like I need one) to read that book again...

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Mon October 13th, 2008, 12:17 am

[quote=""boswellbaxter""]From what I've read about the historical Berengaria, she was anything but stupid or sweetly insipid. Elizabeth Hallam in the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes, "She emerges from the sources as an intelligent, pious, and quietly determined person, tenacious in adversity, an active ruler of her lands, well able to gain and use allies and defenders, and strikingly generous to the religious orders even by the standards of her day."

Unfortunately, intelligence, piety, and quiet determination aren't "sexy" qualities, so it's all too easy for historical novelists to dismiss Berengaria as a nonentity, especially in contrast to her more more flamboyant and colorful in-laws.[/quote]

Hmmm. Perhaps Penman can bring a perspective on her that we've not yet seen in a book.

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Mon October 13th, 2008, 12:28 am

For a very good account of the third crusade, I really do recommend Zoe Oldenbourg's work in The Crusades, which has a lot of details that most historians and novelists skip over.
I'll have to look for that. I started one of ZO's books, World is Not Enough, but bailed on it -- nothing wrong with the writing but I flat out didn't care for the main characters enough to stick with it.
Poor Berengaria! I loved that line out of Here Be Dragons where John thinks that if anyone cut her, she'd bleed pure sugar.
I'll have to watch for that next time I read HBD. As for John, it's going to be a lot of fun in the next book seeing what Penman does with his delicious evilness. I suspect he'll get all the best lines this time - forget Richard :D

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Post by Ash » Mon October 13th, 2008, 3:33 am

Yikes, based on the last chapter or so, I don't think John is quite so evil. I know the story about Richard during the crusades, but I didn't know about these other acts of cruelty in France. John obviously was taught by masters.

Boy is that family screwed up. What I am loving is seeing Geoffrey as a real person, and seeing him playing off everyone against each other. And I love how Penman shows us a sociopath's mind, what Hal is thinking, how he comes up with his assumptions, how his paranoia and low self worth feed into everything he does. I also love seeing into Henry's head, and realizing what a complex man he was.

My only complaint is that because I read ECs Greatest Knight, I know what happens to Hal, so I am not going to be surprised. Ah well, less stress that way

Oh, re Marguerite: EC paints her as a very different character. I'd be curious if anyone knows anything about her based on primary sources.

Forgive my ignorance, but my knowledge of French history really is abysmal: when did France become France? Was it under Napolian? And what were the lands before they became under the control of England (separate contries in their own right, vassal lands of the French king?)

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Mon October 13th, 2008, 10:22 am

[quote=""boswellbaxter""]From what I've read about the historical Berengaria, she was anything but stupid or sweetly insipid. Elizabeth Hallam in the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes, "She emerges from the sources as an intelligent, pious, and quietly determined person, tenacious in adversity, an active ruler of her lands, well able to gain and use allies and defenders, and strikingly generous to the religious orders even by the standards of her day."

Unfortunately, intelligence, piety, and quiet determination aren't "sexy" qualities, so it's all too easy for historical novelists to dismiss Berengaria as a nonentity, especially in contrast to her more more flamboyant and colorful in-laws.[/quote]

Absolutely. That's my impression as well Boswell. King John seems to have been fond of her and visited her after Richard's death. Norah Lofts wrote about her in The Lute Player but I don't recall that much about the novel. I think there has been a general trend for novelists to portray her as a bit wet.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Mon October 13th, 2008, 12:06 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Norah Lofts wrote about her in The Lute Player but I don't recall that much about the novel. I think there has been a general trend for novelists to portray her as a bit wet.[/quote]

I've read The Lute Player. It was a bit dull.

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Mon October 13th, 2008, 12:09 pm

[quote=""Misfit""]I'll have to look for that. I started one of ZO's books, World is Not Enough, but bailed on it -- nothing wrong with the writing but I flat out didn't care for the main characters enough to stick with it.
[/quote]

I've got that one somewhere in the house. Started it but never got beyond Chapter 1. At the time it didn't grab me but it wasn't a wall banger and I thought it might just be me.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Mon October 13th, 2008, 12:19 pm

[quote=""Ash""]
Oh, re Marguerite: EC paints her as a very different character. I'd be curious if anyone knows anything about her based on primary sources.
[/quote]

Very little is known about her and certainly not her personality. She remarried Bela of Hungary in 1186 and died in the Holy land while on pilgrimage in 1196.
I took my own thoughts on her from the psychic researches I use and I didn't look at her personality in depth at that time; it was more of a snapshot. Perhaps French or Hungarian sources might have something on her - particularly the latter if she was their queen for ten years, but I found next to nothing in English.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Telynor
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Post by Telynor » Mon October 13th, 2008, 3:39 pm

[quote=""Ash""]
Boy is that family screwed up. What I am loving is seeing Geoffrey as a real person, and seeing him playing off everyone against each other. And I love how Penman shows us a sociopath's mind, what Hal is thinking, how he comes up with his assumptions, how his paranoia and low self worth feed into everything he does. I also love seeing into Henry's head, and realizing what a complex man he was.[/quote]

I think that most medieval kings and lords would come off as out-and-out psychopaths in our modern age. Richard, most certainly! Talk about an Oedipus complex, the boy had it in spades. Hal I see as a very needy person, with the inability to really think about what his consequences are, and trying to 'buy' the loyalty and affection that he craved from his parents. It must have been hard for him (and all those boys) to have such a controlling father, and a mother that was at turns indifferent and focused on Richard as her favourite. Instead, he seems to be one of those people who remains stuck as a teenager.

That insight into Henry at Thomas Becket's tomb when he goes to do penance -- that was a stroke of brilliance there. And Eleanor coping with isolation for the first time in her life.

I'd love to see someone work up something on Eleanor's grandfather, William the Troubadour.
Last edited by diamondlil on Mon October 13th, 2008, 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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