October 2008: The Devil's Brood by Sharon Kay Penman

LCW · Post by **LCW** » Fri October 10th, 2008, 7:58 pm

[quote=""Misfit""]I agree, and Eleanor is getting quite a humbling right now. I still can't quite get her rationale for spurring her sons on to this rebellion against her husband. Hal is just flat out too irresponsible to rule anything.[/quote]

My impression is that she was counting on the nobility who were supporting their cause to be the real brains of the operation. Although King Louis is a big exception to that one!! I think she felt that Henry was stifling Hal and was being unfair to Richard with regards to Aquitaine. She also held a lot of resentment towards Henry about her own claim to Aquitaine since she was the rightful ruler but Henry didn't allow her to rule it as she saw fit. Also, I think when Henry had the Count (?) of Tolouse do homage to himself, Hal, and then Richard as an afterthought meanwhile leaving her, the rightful Duchess of the lands, completely out of it was more than an insult to her. IMO, at least from what the way the book describes it, that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back!

I'm loving it and have had to pull myself away from it each time!! I never read first thing in the morning but since my dog is recovering from surgery we couldn't do our morning I walk so I used the hour curl up with a cup of coffee and Devil's Brood instead! It felt downright decadent on a weekday!

LCW · Post by **LCW** » Fri October 10th, 2008, 8:03 pm

[quote=""boswellbaxter""]I was also pleased to see more emphasis on the historical figures and less on Ranulf and Rhiannon--I found them to be somewhat intrusive in Time and Chance.[/quote]

I agree! I thought they fit very well into the story line, esp. Ranulf, in When Christ and His Saints Slept but in Time and Chance it felt like they were just leftovers from the first novel!

Misfit · Post by **Misfit** » Fri October 10th, 2008, 8:30 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Would that be Geoffrey who went on to become the rather stroppy Archbishop of York when he grew up? Yes, there was an illegitimate one called Geoffrey.[/quote]

Just got my own question answered. Picked the book back up and Geoff is referred to as "bishop elect".

Misfit · Post by **Misfit** » Fri October 10th, 2008, 8:33 pm

Also, I think when Henry had the Count (?) of Tolouse do homage to himself, Hal, and then Richard as an afterthought meanwhile leaving her, the rightful Duchess of the lands, completely out of it was more than an insult to her. IMO, at least from what the way the book describes it, that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back!

I agree there but it seemed to me like it all started before that? Louis is quite something and I love the way Henry deals with him -- although I'm pretty much of the opinion so far that Henry gets all the best lines in this book.

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Fri October 10th, 2008, 11:04 pm

[quote=""Misfit""]I still can't quite get her rationale for spurring her sons on to this rebellion against her husband. Hal is just flat out too irresponsible to rule anything.[/quote]

I am passed the 'rebellion' section and am scratching my head as well. I've known for a long time that she did this, but I don't get the rationale either - unless its the bitterness of the role that she has been put in, not being in charge. Henry's reaction is so stunning that if I didn't have sympathy for him I did now. If she indeed loved him, what was that all about?

But even more than that I am scratching my head why in the world Henry would make Hal king. Its obvious, in the books I've read, that he is totall irresponsible, and has no clue what it would mean to govern. I know it was a continental tradition, but what would the advantages be?

EC I understand why you wouldn't want to read it. But it is interesting because both of you have different focus. Your on Marshall and Hal have helped me understand what is happening between Henry and the King, with Marshall in the background. It doesn't mean either of you are wrong or right about your conclusions, but together they add to understanding of the situation.

Misfit · Post by **Misfit** » Sat October 11th, 2008, 12:17 am

I'm about half way through and Henry and Eleanore have just had a very interesting game of tell the truth. Still though any rationale given just makes no sense, at least to me, and I agree with Ash that Henry made a huge mistake giving Hal so much power.

I'm past page 350 and finally we're starting to see young John come into his own.

LCW · Post by **LCW** » Sat October 11th, 2008, 12:52 am

I'm somewhere on pg. 350 too and I have say I'm still on Eleanor's side!! Although I totally get why Henry, in his Kingly narcissism, was so blindsided by Eleanor's betrayal. I'm sure it was esp. painful since he did trust her so completely but marrying Eleanor is what gave him such a vast Kingdom and he completely takes her for granted and doesn't give any thought as to how she feels or how his actions affect her. If he wasn't so self-absorbed he would've been able to see that his wife was not a woman to be trifled with in that way!!

Misfit · Post by **Misfit** » Sat October 11th, 2008, 2:10 am

To be honest, I still haven't decided which parent (if not both) are to blame for problems of their children. I think they've both made mistake and molly-coddled them. Time and the pages of a book will tell.

EC2 · Post by **EC2** » Sat October 11th, 2008, 11:32 am

Hal was given the kingship in his father's lifetime not just to keep up with the French but because of Henry's insecurity over what happened to him in the past during the civil war. It was to secure the throne in the event of Henry's death. Hal was 'given' power in order to boost his standing, but a lot of it seems to be by word only rather than allowing him free rein - which was one of the reasons Hal chaffed.
If children learn from their parents and often repeat their mistakes, then perhaps we have to look at the parenting skills (or lack of them) in Henry and Eleanor's upbringing. I haven't particularly looked at how Eleanor's parents went on - didn;t her father die young? but the Empress is supposed to have been responsible for a lot of how Henry applied his policies - keep people hungry and dangling for morsels (which is exactly what Henry did to Roger Bigod) and which would accord with him giving Hal power on paper but not wanting to relinquish his hold - can't blame him when revenues just ran through Hal's hands like water. However, Hal by all accounts was supposed to be a charmer who could talk the talk, even if he didn't want to walk the walk - too much like hard work and everyone loved him. A bit like Princess Di I suppose. There was the public persona and then there was the reality.
I wonder how much input the parents had with their children when they were younger and how much was left to tutors and other household departments. Just rambling here

Misfit · Post by **Misfit** » Sat October 11th, 2008, 1:43 pm

What a dysfuntional family, but I do feel that the parenting skills (or lack thereof) of Henry and Eleanor contributed greatly to this mess, especially Hal and John.

I'm trying to figure out a play of words on The Family Feud (remember the old game show?) when I write my review