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Watching a movie for inspiration

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sgn1
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Post by sgn1 » Mon December 5th, 2011, 8:38 am

"My six-foot friend's set of plate mail with chain mail gorget weighs sixty-five pounds."

Sounds about right! Eek :D

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Post by fljustice » Mon December 5th, 2011, 5:30 pm

[quote=""Shield-of-Dardania""]Plod, grind and slog till ya drop. And you could still get beat by a lighter armed but speedier and more agile opponent.

I can imagine a tired warrior drawing his last ounce of strength, going in for the kill, missing, then collapsing under the weight of all that metal, and then unable to get up again.

I wonder how much a standard basic set of armour would weigh. Say, chainmail, breast plate and helm, plus arm, shoulder and leg plates.

The Norman army was probably the most heavily armoured of its time, I believe. With the destrier riding cavalry its most impressive component, right?[/quote]

Plod, grind, and slog, indeed! The lightly armored Mongols literally ran rings around the mailed knights sent against them. They shot the horses and waited for the knights to tire. They destroyed every mailed army sent against them, including the cream of the French knighthood. They had a clear shot at marching to the Atlantic. Luckily for Europe, their Khan died and the troops withdrew for a civil war of succession. :eek:
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Post by Shield-of-Dardania » Tue December 6th, 2011, 11:31 am

That's the chink in their armour then. Figuratively speaking, of course. :D

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Post by parthianbow » Tue December 6th, 2011, 3:17 pm

[quote=""Shield-of-Dardania""]I wonder how much a standard basic set of armour would weigh. Say, chainmail, breast plate and helm, plus arm, shoulder and leg plates.[/quote]

A lot.

A Roman chain mail shirt weighs in at around 6-8 kgs. Shield 6-10 kgs. Sword, dagger, belt 4 kgs. Sandals 1 kg. Helmet 1-2 kgs.

A suit of armour would weigh at least the same as that, IMO.
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Kveto from Prague
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Post by Kveto from Prague » Tue December 6th, 2011, 8:26 pm

Interesting little tidbit on European plate mail. While the armour altogether may have weighed more than a chainmail shirt, it was actually felt much, much lighter. The reason was weight distribution. The weight of plate mail was evenly distributed about the body while chainmail put all of the weight on one's shoulders. So chainmail felt much heavier than plate mail. Knights in plate could move much faster than their earlier counterparts in chainmail.

Don't believe what you have seen from Hollywood and re-enactors who wear armour once in a blue moon. Men who wore it every day as part of their professions were able to move faster than we can imagine.
(I have tried on chainmail jerkins and the weight is considerable)

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Kveto from Prague
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Post by Kveto from Prague » Tue December 6th, 2011, 8:37 pm

[quote=""fljustice""]Plod, grind, and slog, indeed! The lightly armored Mongols literally ran rings around the mailed knights sent against them. They shot the horses and waited for the knights to tire. They destroyed every mailed army sent against them, including the cream of the French knighthood. They had a clear shot at marching to the Atlantic. Luckily for Europe, their Khan died and the troops withdrew for a civil war of succession. :eek: [/quote]

True, European knighthood had a lot of trouble with foes who would not meet them face-on. The cavalry charge was effective against enemies who didn't run away faster than they.

Oh, and the Mongols themselves met their match in the jungles of southeast Asia when they could no longer maneuver their horses in the thick forests. The Vietnamese jungle guerrilla tactics made short work of them. One of the reasons the Mongol empire made no headway there.

Wow, this thread really got away from its original topic :-)

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Post by Shield-of-Dardania » Thu December 8th, 2011, 7:20 am

I always love a digression. When guys veer off a topic, sometimes ya get the most fantastic things. ;)

Yess, the jungle was the natural fortress of many SEAn kingdoms.

Anyway. Of all their opponents, the Javanese were the most interesting in the way they dealt with the offspring of All-Go-Die Khan.

Emperor Kublai had sent envoy Meng Qi to the court of Kerta Negara, king of Singha Sari kingdom with a typical proposal, i.e. for the Javanese king to submit and pay tribute.

Kerta Negara branded Meng Qi's face with a hot iron, the normal punishment for a common thief, cut off his ears, then sent him packing back to Beijing, by then the Mongol empire's capital.

Kublai responded with 20,000 fighters on 1,000 ships. By the time they arrived, Jaya Katwang, king of vassal kingdom Kediri, had risen against Kerta Negara, killed him and usurped his kingdom.

Raden Wijaya, son-in-law of Kerta Negara, received the invading Mongols as allies, pledged his vassalage, and told them (lied to them) that the culprit to be punished was Jaya Katwang (the new king of Singha Sari), who, unbeknownst to the new batch of Mongols, actually had nothing to do with Meng Qi's fate.

The combined armies of Raden Wijaya and the Mongols routed Jaya Katwang's army. Raden Wijaya then requested permission to return to his newly founded home kingdom, Majapahit, to prepare tribute, while leaving the Mongols in Singha Sari to celebrate their victory. When 200 unarmed Mongols went to Raden Wijaya's court to collect the promised tribute, they were ambushed and destroyed by Raden Wijaya's soldiers.

Raden Wijaya's main army pressed onward back to Singha Sari, pretended to join in the victory celebrations with their Mongol 'allies' for a while, then turned on them and attacked them with all their strength.

The bewildered, boozed-out Mongols had to beat a hasty retreat and put out to sea fast, because the North Easterly monsoon winds to carry them home was due to end soon, which would leave them vulnerable in unfamiliar, hostile terrain for the next 6 months. They lost 3,000 of their best fighting men, and never came back again. While Majapahit later rose to become the new most powerful kingdom of Java.
Last edited by Shield-of-Dardania on Fri December 9th, 2011, 1:14 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Post by annis » Thu December 8th, 2011, 11:26 pm

Posted by FLJustice
Luckily for Europe, their Khan died and the troops withdrew for a civil war of succession.
I've just been reading about this in Colin Falconer's entertaining epic historical adventure, Silk Road, which deals with the Crusaders' singular lack of success against the Mongols and the war of succession which left Kublai Khan the winner and redirected Mongol attention into Asia.

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sgn1
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Post by sgn1 » Tue December 13th, 2011, 11:33 am

Shield - saw this and thought of you. Watch for the swordfight in the corridor - lovely pacing c 0.13:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJILmOLRbRc

That's just the trailer, looking forward to the whole thing on Saturday! (nb, in the UK ...)

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Post by DeAnnaCameron » Tue December 13th, 2011, 4:21 pm

I love watching period films for writing inspiration. For my novel about a fictional vaudeville theater in Old New York, a few of my favorites were HOUSE OF MIRTH for the sharp and witty dialogue, TOPSY TURVY and THE PRESTIGE for theater experience, and THE GREAT ZIEGFELD for insight into that character, since he plays a role in my story.

I think it's prudent to put some time between the watching and the writing, though, so that what you see and hear has a chance to percolate and distill into your own story and voice.

I find Wikipedia's list of historical films especially helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hi ... rama_films
DANCING AT THE CHANCE, love and vaudeville in Old New York (Berkley/April)
THE BELLY DANCER, a novel of the 1893 Chicago World's Fair (Berkley/out now)
www.deannacameron.com

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