Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings

[Divia]

Jefferson died deeply in dept. Perhaps he thought his children would sell Sally and get some $$. Granted she was only a woman, but she had a few good years left.
Just throwing it out there. Much like Michy my glasses aren't rose colored.

[Michy]

[quote=""Matt Phillips""]If someone sincerely espouses philosophical ideals but falls short of perfect adherence to them in personal practice because of limits on what's feasible for them to do given the time and place in which they lived, I don't think that makes them a hypocrite. It makes them human. A hypocrite is someone who espouses ideals publically that privately they don't believe at all. And as far as I know, that definition applies to none of the Founding Fathers.[/quote] Again, I'm not calling Jefferson or any of the other FFs hypocrites; I truly don't believe they were. However, even given the context of his times, I still think Jefferson could have done better by his slaves than he did. Particularly with regards to the woman with whom he carried on a long-term relationship and by whom he fathered children.

[quote=""Divia""]Jefferson died deeply in dept. Perhaps he thought his children would sell Sally and get some $$. Granted she was only a woman, but she had a few good years left.
Just throwing it out there. Much like Michy my glasses aren't rose colored. [/quote] That is my theory, as well. But perhaps if he had lived more within his means (spent less $$ on rare books and French wines) he would have had the financial wherewithal to free more than just a handful of slaves.

But then, if he hadn't amassed his collection of books we wouldn't have the Jefferson library room at the Library of Congress today where you can go and view those wonderful old books (the ones that survived the fire, that is). So there you go.......

[LoveHistory]

Matt--yes, that's why I mentioned my rose-colored glasses. I'm not an optimist by nature but I am somewhat of a romantic.

Going on my theory that there was a love relationship involved:

Random person: Tom, why not go ahead and give Sally her freedom? Then she can stay if she wants to, or leave if she wants to.

Jefferson: Do you know how dangerous it is for a free black woman in the south? She could go north of course, but some of the biggest racists in this country live in the north. They have more ridiculous ideas about the blacks than many southerners do. And have you any idea what people would say, think, and even do if she was free and chose to stay with me? That would put her in danger, and the children too. I have a responsibility to protect the people I care about. The Almighty will put it all right in the end.

It's very easy for us to say that actions speak louder than words from the safety and comfort of the 21st century. Even Robert E. Lee was against slavery, and against seccession as well. But if those who inherited slaves freed them there would have been hell to pay for the freed slaves (most of whom would have been captured and sold right back into slavery by the less than honorable) and for the men who had freed them. By keeping their slaves they could ensure that they weren't abused, starved, overworked, raped, tortured, separated from their children, and everything else that went on on the worse plantations in the south. Freeing their slaves would also have left the men open to ridicule and taken away their influence among their fellow southerners, which means their opportunities to work for the benefit of others (including the slaves) would have been at an end. It's also possible the Civil War could have happened sooner because there wouldn't have been nearly as many people trying to prevent it. Sometimes we all have to choose between the lesser of two evils (in election years for instance). And sometimes we do things that go against our consciences. Hopefully not often, but it does happen. Why hold men of the past to a higher standard?

I was under the impression that all of Jefferson's slaves were freed upon his death. I could be mixing him up with someone else. However his opinions on the issue of slavery are well documented. To say that he didn't think it was wrong is fine, but the facts do not bear that out. Yes he was human and made mistakes, and it's even possible that he did take advantage of Sally because he could. But that still doesn't mean he really thought of her or anyone else as property.

I have to say I love the idea that she wrote a lot of his stuff. Though she was too young to have written the declaration. 1776 is one of my favorite movies. I know it's largely from the imagination of one person, but I think it's probably as close as we can come to knowing what actually went on (minus the musical numbers of course).

[Matt Phillips]

[quote=""LoveHistory""]I was under the impression that all of Jefferson's slaves were freed upon his death. I could be mixing him up with someone else. [/quote]

Perhaps Washington? He freed all his slaves in his will and also provided pensions for the older ones and training for younger ones.

1776 is one of my favorite movies. I know it's largely from the imagination of one person, but I think it's probably as close as we can come to knowing what actually went on (minus the musical numbers of course).

Actually I'd highly highly highly recommend the HBO series John Adams, based on the David McCulloch book. It's not without its inaccuracies, simplifications, compressions, etc., but in terms of a big or small screen narrative of the debate over independence, it's hard to top. We've made watching the Declaration of Independence episode an annual 4th of July tradition! It's also great in tracing John Adams' evolution from moderate to revolutionary in the years before and in the rise and fall and restoration of his friendship with Jefferson. The actors who played the Adamses, Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin really nailed their parts.

[Divia]

[quote=""LoveHistory""]Matt--yes, that's why I mentioned my rose-colored glasses. I'm not an optimist by nature but I am somewhat of a romantic.

Going on my theory that there was a love relationship involved:

Random person: Tom, why not go ahead and give Sally her freedom? Then she can stay if she wants to, or leave if she wants to.

Jefferson: Do you know how dangerous it is for a free black woman in the south? She could go north of course, but some of the biggest racists in this country live in the north. They have more ridiculous ideas about the blacks than many southerners do. [/quote]




Northers weren't as dependent on slaves or slavery as the south was, that is why we see it end in the North quicker than the south. What were these ridiculous ideas? Jefferson died in July 4, 1826. Slavery had ended in many Northern states.

In 1799 the(New York) Legislature passed "An Act for the Gradual Abolition of Slavery" with only token opposition. It provided for gradual manumission on the Pennsylvania model, which allowed masters to keep their younger slaves in bondage for their most productive years, to recoup their investment. The law freed all children born to slave women after July 4, 1799, but not at once.

the institution of slavery was not legally abolished until the 1780s, in direct response to the new Massachusetts Constitution.

It was admitted to the union in 1791, with a state constitution that also contained the slavery ban. The 1777 constitution entitles Vermont to claim to be the first U.S. state to have abolished slavery.

In 1804 the New Jersey Legislature passed "An Act for the Gradual Abolition of Slavery."

[Ludmilla]

Northers weren't as dependent on slaves or slavery as the south was, that is why we see it end in the North quicker than the south. What were these ridiculous ideas? Jefferson died in July 4, 1826. Slavery had ended in many Northern states.

True, but the economy of the north had never been as dependent on slavery as in the south. The black population in the south was huge compared to the north. Many northerners were quite simply unwilling to live with and employ blacks that moved there.

Perhaps Washington? He freed all his slaves in his will and also provided pensions for the older ones and training for younger ones.

Yes, it was Washington, and he spent years figuring out just how he might accomplish it. Martha was dependent on their slaves, and it was actually upon her death that their slaves were freed. Per the will, from Joseph Ellis's biography of George Washington:

Upon the decease of my wife, it is my Will & desire that all the slaves which I hold in my own right, shall receive their freedom...I do hereby expressly forbid the Sale, or transportation out of the said Commonwealth of any slave I may die possessed of, under any pretence whatsoever.

Now, to give you an idea of the complications that Washington deliberated with regard to his own situation--some of which is speculative--Ellis tells us:

...there is reason to believe that Martha did not share her husband's principled aversion to slavery or agree with his emancipation plan. As noted earlier, that scheme created problems for her dower slaves, which she fully intended to pass on to her surviving heirs in the Custis and Dandridge lines as part of her estate. (Indeed, in a strictly legal sense Martha did not own the dower slaves. They were part of the Custis estate which had to be passed on to her descendants.)

It's my understanding that Jefferson did encourage silence on the issue of slavery. He saw no solution to the dilemma in his own generation. It was a conundrum and a blight on the legacy he had helped shape. He and Adams did exchange a few thoughts on the Missouri Compromise in their letters to one another. Jefferson wrote to Adams:

The question remains to be seen: but not I hope by you or me. Surely they will parlay awhile, and give us time to get out of the way.

I haven't read enough about Sally Hemings to form a well educated opinion on the kind of relationship she had with Jefferson. Obviously a relationship between master and slave would be different than between white husband and wife. Jefferson was ahead of his time in many respects, but still very human and a man of his times with respect to slavery. I don't think that means that the relationship could not have been a caring one.

So although the desire for freedom is universal and age-old, so is the desire to belong.

Very true. Many women will choose security over freedom, esp if there are children involved.

[Divia]

[quote=""Ludmilla""]

Very true. Any many women will choose security over freedom, esp if there are children involved.[/quote]

We shall never know if it was offered to her. However I do think it is interesting to say that a slave woman would rather continue to be a slave than to be free. And how secure were her children, really? They could have been sold off just as easily as any other slave child. would she have gambled...stay with the family and hopefully her children stay with her...or be free and let her kids handle themselves.

Was this sallys situation? We dunno. I don't think she was given the choice. Jefferson was done using her and he would allow his kids to use her however they wanted.

Edit: I will say I went to Jefferson's home 10 years ago or so. It was funny because I remember them saying "And jefferson treated his slaves well. he feed them and clothed them." Im in the background going "Well duh of course he would. He wasn't about to let his investments DIE. You wouldn't let your horse waste away in a pasture either." My boyfriend at the time was like shhh hush...shhh!

[Ludmilla]

[quote=""Divia""]We shall never know if it was offered to her. However I do think it is interesting to say that a slave woman would rather continue to be a slave than to be free. And how secure were her children, really? They could have been sold off just as easily as any other slave child. would she have gambled...stay with the family and hopefully her children stay with her...or be free and let her kids handle themselves.

Was this sallys situation? We dunno. I don't think she was given the choice. Jefferson was done using her and he would allow his kids to use her however they wanted.
[/quote]

Personally, I don't think Sally was given the choice, and when I state that a lot of women choose security over freedom I'm making a broad generalization about women in general. Being a slave naturally complicates what is already a complicated situation.

However, there has been a tendency in modern thought to villify Jefferson over the issue and I agree whole-heartedly with LoveHistory's statement:

I suppose it's normal considering the world in which we currently live to not bother thinking the best of leaders past or present. And sometimes it's satisfying (in a mean way) to see those who espouse the noblest ideals proven to be human and even hypocrites. We like seeing hypocrites fall. That's human nature.

[Divia]

But here's the thing. I'm not making Jefferson a villain. He was a man of his time. Nothing more nothing less.

[Divia]

Barbara's novel is bargain Price:

http://www.amazon.com/Sally-Hemings-Nov ... 492&sr=8-1

This might be a very interesting book to do as BOTM.