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Divia
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Post by Divia » Fri August 12th, 2011, 12:32 am

Thats a very PC answer and one I do not believe.
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Michy
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Post by Michy » Fri August 12th, 2011, 3:12 am

I think it's kind of amusing that he's got his panties in such a bunch over the use of the word "SCUM." Seems to me there are a lot worse things the rioters could be called than that! People who steal and destroy property that belongs to others who have done nothing to them (not to mention hurting others who have done nothing to them) are, in my opinion, indeed acting like "SCUM." :o

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Divia
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Post by Divia » Fri August 12th, 2011, 4:00 am

[quote=""Michy""]I think it's kind of amusing that he's got his panties in such a bunch over the use of the word "SCUM." Seems to me there are a lot worse things the rioters could be called than that! People who steal and destroy property that belongs to others who have done nothing to them (not to mention hurting others who have done nothing to them) are, in my opinion, indeed acting like "SCUM." :o [/quote]

Yeah I have to agree here. Its not like we are talking about citizens who had to make a choice between stealing bread or going hungry. These are a bunch of kids that wanted free stuff and wanted to break things. They are breaking the law. And they are attacking people and police. Uncalled for. So, too bad if these people are being called SCUM.
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Madeleine
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Currently reading: "Longstone" by L J Ross
Preferred HF: Plantagenets, Victorian, crime
Location: Essex/London

Post by Madeleine » Fri August 12th, 2011, 9:01 am

4 people have now died so I don't see why we should worry about a bit of name-calling, especially now that some of those who've been caught are being revealed as people who aren't exactly on the breadline or deprived.

Zero tolerance is what is needed, and swift and sharp punishment, rather than community service, unless they get them all helping to rebuild some of the properties they destroyed.
Currently reading: "Longstone" by L J Ross

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Fri August 12th, 2011, 11:25 am

And an interesting post in the Telegraph http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peter ... he-bottom/

And another interesting opinion piece from Russell Brand http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/1 ... NETTXT8187
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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MLE (Emily Cotton)
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Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Fri August 12th, 2011, 3:18 pm

EC, I read the second piece. What a bunch of unfocused drivel. The guy has had everything, and HE behaved that way, and so he feels sympathetic to those youths who behave that way and haven't had his advantages? Give me a break.

I'm a trainer -- of animals, and yes, through my years working with the homeless, of humans. Although we don't use animal terms on people, every being learns in the same way. Within the limits of their physical abilities and their personal histories, they seek power/control in whatever environment they find themselves. It can be done in a good way-- which benefits others, which usually lasts. Or it can be done in the wrong way, almost always short-term, and harmful to others and eventually, themselves.

They learn by trial and error. The trainer tries to teach the young and/or untrained beings that they must choose the first and refuse the second.

How do they learn? From horses to hoodies, what is most effective is that there is pain in choosing the bad and reward for choosing the good. If the reverse is practiced, you'll get the kind of behavior currently being acted out in the rioters.

In breaking (known as extinguishing, for those reading scientific journals) established and rewarded negative behaviors, you have to use punishment. Removing past rewards will not do it. Giving future incentives will not do it. And by the way, punishment that is physically painful works best and quickest. Not PC, but I'm talking the science of learning, not people's dainty feelings.

So there you have it. These men (it's almost always the young males, because females can be more effectively molded and contained by social pressure, and the majority of older males wise up) need to feel a little pain. They have been allowed to grow up with too few cause-and-effect connections to the society they are busy tearing down. If their behavior meant that they would shortly go hungry, or cold, or find themselves or their loved ones at sword-point, they would drop the mindlessness and start thinking beyond their muscles and testosterone.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening in the PC climate. They'll probably get further rewarded (or damned by faint censure) in the foolish hope that they will then become good little boys.
Last edited by MLE (Emily Cotton) on Fri August 12th, 2011, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Michy
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Post by Michy » Fri August 12th, 2011, 4:43 pm

[quote=""MLE""]EC, I read the second piece. What a bunch of unfocused drivel. The guy has had everything, and HE behaved that way, and so he feels sympathetic to those youths who behave that way and haven't had his advantages? Give me a break.

[/quote] I read both pieces. As to the second, whenever I hear the rich and famous respond this way, my natural reaction is "Ok, Mr/Mrs Celebrity, if you have so much empathy for these people then why don't you take some of your millions and give it to fix the problem? Put your money where your mouth is." Oh, wait, I see he did donate his fee for the article to a clean-up project. Wow.

As to the first -- obviously I can't respond with any degree of certainty or knowlege since I'm not a Brit and am not familiar with British society. I don't doubt that there is, as he points out, less-than-honorable behavior among people in high places. But I just can't see that as justification or excuse for the wanton destruction of property and harming of lives of other people who have nothing to do with causing the problems.

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Fri August 12th, 2011, 8:53 pm

I think that we need a fundamental rethink from the ground up. No baby is born thinking 'Duh, when I grow up I'm going to go out looting, rioting and creating mayhem.' No baby is born with 'SCUM' tattooed across its forehead. Okay, we are all born with certain characteristics that will determine some of our behaviour, but the majority of it we learn from the way in which we are raised (be that positive or negative) and from the society with which we are surrounded. From the education and support we receive, both cerebral and emotional. When those break are not there, or are warped to another way of thinking, then we're in the cart.
My father in law grew up in the most appalling poverty in the slums of London and then the slums of Nottingham. His father was illiterate, his mother worked in a sweat shop. His uncles were bare knuckle fist fighters. Did he ever turn to the kind of behaviour we've recently seen? No. He was too busy earning a living. He came from a culture that had to work because if you didn't, then you didn't eat, and you started work at 14. Hard times, and times of make do and mend. Mind you, some of that earning a living involved drowning unwanted kittens for the neighbourhood at sixpence a bag. But the family unit was strong and supportive. He was encouraged to be literate and expected to work for a living, no slackers tolerated. There was a black market, but no drugs culture and little consumerism. A pair of shoes was expected to last you years and when you went to buy a new pair the choice was black or brown. (if you could afford shoes).
I don't know what the answer is. I certainly think society has lost its way and that we are paying for it now. I also think (sitting on the fence) that all points of view have something to bring to the discussion.
Strange to think that 200 years ago, we'd have either hanged them or sent them all to Australia!
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3562
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Fri August 12th, 2011, 11:24 pm

Australia turned out pretty well from the sort your FIL's grandfather was. But these young hoodlums--they have less in common with him than they do with King John.

Consider -- John never had to worry about being hungry. He was in a position in society where he would not suffer punishment. And he never had to work. And everybody knows how HE turned out.

Now multiply his dysfunctional, spoiled childhood, completely lacking in any activity where he could build real self-esteem, by all the oversized, overage toddlers throwing a violent tantrum around London.

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Divia
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Post by Divia » Fri August 12th, 2011, 11:48 pm

There are numerous problems with the system.

A. Its a me me me society.

B. People expect things, because its a me me me society. Instead of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps there are still people waiting around for their slavery check and oh I lost my land I'm a Native American check.

C. Entire sub cultures do not see the importance of education. This could be why I have so many lower income children who never make it to school. They don't care and the school can't do jack.

D. Orphanages need to come back. What you say? Are you insane. No, I'm being serious. i dont mean the charles Dickens or Annie ones, but there are so many people who cannot take care of children and the system does nothing. Case in point...my roommate. The stories that poor girl tells me about her childhood is UNREAL but because they had food and a roof over their head it was OK to keep them in an abusive environment.

E. The rich will never give, so don't bank on that as the magic bullet. As we have seen during this eco crisis the rich continue to do well and the middle class continue to fall.
News, views, and reviews on books and graphic novels for young adult.
http://yabookmarks.blogspot.com/

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