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Article: Mary Seymour

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princess garnet
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Article: Mary Seymour

Post by princess garnet » Sat July 2nd, 2011, 6:49 pm

I came across this article about Mary Seymour, daughter of Katherine Parr and Thomas Seymour from History Today online. It sheds a little light about what happened to her.

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Divia
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Post by Divia » Sat July 2nd, 2011, 9:11 pm

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I always wondered about her. Poor thing.

Are there any paintings of her that we know of?
Last edited by Divia on Sat July 2nd, 2011, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by annis » Sun July 3rd, 2011, 7:05 pm

Poor little Lady Mary- collateral damage in the wreckage of vain ambitions. It's always been believed that she died as a young child, but this added information appears to confirm her early death. I'm pretty sure no one bothered to make a portrait of her - she seems to have had no particular value to anyone. She was an unfortunate reminder of events best forgotten, and in fact as we've seen, her guardian resented bitterly being landed with the care of the child and probably didn't suffer too many regrets at her demise.

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Divia
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Post by Divia » Sun July 3rd, 2011, 8:27 pm

I went to another forum that said the lady who got her was pretty well of and that she didnt need money. Is this true? I know nothing about these details, so i was wondering.
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Susan
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Post by Susan » Sun July 3rd, 2011, 9:50 pm

[quote=""Divia""]I went to another forum that said the lady who got her was pretty well of and that she didnt need money. Is this true? I know nothing about these details, so i was wondering.[/quote]

Katherine Brandon really did not get any money by becoming her guardian. In fact, Mary Seymour cost her money as the government was supposed to provide for her upkeep, but apparently did not always do so. Mary Seymour did not have a lot of money as her mother left all her money to her husband Thomas Seymour and this money was confiscated by the Crown when he was executed. However, she was still the daughter of a queen (niece of another queen, Jane Seymour and the cousin of Edward VI) and that status would have meant something.

Katherine Brandon, Duchess of Suffolk was the widow of Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, a lifelong friend of Henry VIII. Brandon was the second husband of Henry's younger sister Mary. Charles and Mary were the parents of Frances Brandon, the mother of Lady Jane Grey.

Katherine Brandon was born Katherine Willoughby, the daughter of William Willoughby, 11th Baron Willoughby de Eresby and Maria de Salinas who was a close friend and lady-in-waiting to Katherine of Aragon, Henry VIII's first wife. She was her father's only child and when he died Katherine, at age 7, was his heir. Wealthy heirs often became wards of the monarch or to a noble who would buy the wardship. Charles Brandon bought Katherine Willoughby's wardship and intended to marry her to his son and heir. When his wife Mary died, he decided to marry Katherine himself. He was 50 and Katherine was 14. Katherine had two sons by Charles Brandon and her intention could have been to marry Mary Seymour to one of them.

The article really does not shed any new light on Mary Seymour's fate, but it does outline all that is known about her very nicely. Since Mary Seymour disappeared from the records when she was around two, most historians have assumed that she died young, but we still do not know how and why she disappeared from the records.
Last edited by Susan on Sun July 3rd, 2011, 10:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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LoobyG
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Post by LoobyG » Sun July 3rd, 2011, 10:11 pm

Thanks for posting this Princess Garnet, I've enjoyed reading this article. What a tragic life for a little girl.

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sweetpotatoboy
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Post by sweetpotatoboy » Mon July 4th, 2011, 10:38 am

Thanks for posting. Fascinating to wonder what became of her.

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Post by Jeanne » Thu August 4th, 2011, 8:30 pm

[quote=""princess garnet""]I came across this article about Mary Seymour, daughter of Katherine Parr and Thomas Seymour from History Today online. It sheds a little light about what happened to her.[/quote]

I couldn't get the article to come up when I clicked on the link - perhaps it has expired?

I've done quite a bit of research on Mary Seymour - well, what there is to do, because there is so little confirmed about her. What is there is tantalizing, and unsurprisingly, I'm working on a manuscript about it. Even so, I consider it a toss-up as to what became of her. One story says she died at about age 2, which is when she vanished from "the records"; another, that she died about age 13, which is when the woman who had specifically been her governess (started out as a lady in waiting for Katheryn Parr, was named her child's governess, then travelled with the Berties - as Katherine Brandon became - during their exile to the Continent during Mary Tudor's reign) seemed to become available to join Elizabeth I's court as "mother of the maids" shortly after the Berties' return to England.
Mary Seymour would have been about 13. It doesn't seem that she was retained to be governess to the Berties' children; they had their own elderly governess, who had been Katherine Willoughby Brandon's in her childhood.

The 2s were terrible for youngsters prior to modern medicine, as so many died around that age from accidents as they learned to dart away from minders and fell into harm's way, succumbed to illnesses or to things that are not specifically documented then but whose causes we now know - such as allergies to beestings or foods as they were weaned, to asthma or to things like infected cuts and scrapes. However, the mystery for me is: if she died then, why wasn't it mentioned in the household records or a brief piece of correspondence?

I took a look at the circumstances around the time Mary is thought to have died (if she did); that was an extremely terrible year for Katherine Brandon, as it was the year of the sweating sickness when her two sons died within hours of each other (and maybe that carried Mary off, too), and also the year of Jane Grey's usurpation - Jane Grey being her step-granddaughter and her family from her marriage to Charles Brandon being involved in conspiracy and military action all the way around. Another note is that Mary *was* "restored in the blood" some months after her father was executed, but while she was known to still be living. This might have negated the need for Katherine Brandon to write again for money. Another note: the summative historians I have read made it sound as if she dunned the Palace constantly for money; in fact, there is only one known letter.

She also might have thrown up her hands at the futility of her efforts to get anything more out of the Palace; it was Katherine Brandon Bertie herself who had set up a large and elaborate nursery staff suitable to the daughter of a Dowager Queen, and it's possible that she "downgraded" her in her own mind as a ward whose existence was better off not mentioned. *And* after the Jane Grey debacle, her own position in England became increasingly precarious during Mary Tudor's reign, and ultimately she and a select group of her household had to flee the country in secret and *were* actually hunted and pursued in Europe by parties, presumed to be agents of Mary Tudor. It makes for some highly fascinating reading, but it might also explain why nothing more is said about Mary Seymour one way or the other.

Jeanne
Last edited by Jeanne on Sat August 6th, 2011, 7:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by boswellbaxter » Fri August 5th, 2011, 5:09 pm

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