Anglo-Saxon England

annis · Post by **annis** » Fri June 17th, 2011, 4:06 am

There's something particularly appealing about the idea of a king being scolded by a feisty peasant woman - maybe it's a reminder that all men, however important, are subject to the tyranny of bossy women

I remember seeing this story a few years ago which suggests that English propagandists may have pinched the story of the burnt cakes/loaves from a Viking folktale, which would be a nice irony:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 030907.php

Carla · Post by **Carla** » Fri June 17th, 2011, 11:51 am

For what it's worth, my feeling is that it's one of those stories that might or might not be literally true in itself, but that somehow captures a whole situation. Like Robert Bruce and the spider.

Annis, do you happen to know the details of the story about Ragnar Lodbrok burning the loaves? I have a vague recollection of one where he was cooking bread and was so smitten by gazing at a beautiful maiden that he forgot all about his dinner and let it burn. I don't think anyone ticked him off for it, though!

annis · Post by **annis** » Fri June 17th, 2011, 7:11 pm

It seems to be another one of those stories which has many variants, and the beautiful maiden turns up in several of them. I guess that when tales were transmitted orally those telling them would add their own flourishes

Saxo Grammaticus doesn't, as far as I can recall, mention the cake burning episode at all- though he does describe how one of Ragnar's followers, Bjorn (later king of Sweden) acquires the nickname "Ironsides", so King Ethelred's son, Edmund "Ironside", was not alone in that one.
http://omacl.org/DanishHistory/book9.html

In Donald A Mackenzie's Teutonic Myth and Legend the story goes that rather than Ragnar himself, it was some of his men who caused the loaves to be burnt while distracted by a beautiful maiden:

"Ragnar then plundered on the high seas and raided Scotland and Pictland. He set a new king over the Orkneys, and went against Norway.

It chanced that he came one day to Spangerejd, and there he sent men ashore to procure bread. When they returned with the food he was made angry because that it was burned. The men told him that they had gone to a house in which there was a beautiful maiden: they could refrain not from gazing upon her, and so the bread was burned.

Now Ragnar bethought him to have such a maiden for his bride, so that he might forget his grief for Thora. He sent to her a message bidding her to come unto him. Desiring to put her wisdom to test, he told his messengers to ask her to come not on foot nor yet driving; not attired and yet not naked; not feasting and yet not fasting; not with anyone and yet not alone.

Aslog, who was named Krake in her poor dwelling, came towards the great sea king neither driving nor on foot but riding upon a goat with her feet trailing upon the ground; she came without attire, but yet not naked, because her hair was so long and bountiful that it covered her body, and she drew a net about her; she came not feasting nor yet fasting, because she held an onion to her lips and tasted of it; she was not alone, because her dog walked by her side.

Ragnar, who was now a great king, took beauteous Aslog, the daughter of Sigurd and Brynhild, for his bride, and their sons were named Ingvar and Ubbe."

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Fri June 17th, 2011, 7:26 pm

Aslog, who was named Krake in her poor dwelling, came towards the great sea king neither driving nor on foot but riding upon a goat with her feet trailing upon the ground; she came without attire, but yet not naked, because her hair was so long and bountiful that it covered her body, and she drew a net about her; she came not feasting nor yet fasting, because she held an onion to her lips and tasted of it; she was not alone, because her dog walked by her side.

Ha! If I were Krake, I would have told the king to forget it.

Carla · Post by **Carla** » Fri June 17th, 2011, 7:43 pm

[quote=""Margaret""]Ha! If I were Krake, I would have told the king to forget it.[/quote]

And that would have been most sensible and logical. But folktales don't have to do logic

Thanks Annis - that sounds like a close variant of the version I vaguely recall (I may well have remembered it wrong). Yes, I'm sure the storytellers each added their own flourishes. I wonder if the hair found its way into the Lady Godiva legend later?

Slightly curious that it implies that Ragnar's men went to someone's house and did the cooking themselves. One might have expected a bunch of big tough Vikings to order the inhabitants to do the cooking for them, no? And then they could have gazed on the beautiful maiden all they liked while she was doing the cooking, and got their bread unburned into the bargain.

annis · Post by **annis** » Fri June 17th, 2011, 7:44 pm

Posted by Margaret

Ha! If I were Krake, I would have told the king to forget it.

Me, too

I'd be thinking, who does this arrogant s.o.b think he is? (A great king, obviously.) Maybe word of his glorious deeds had preceded him and she thought he was worth the effort?

Carla, I was wondering the same thing about the cooking. Unless those perving Vikings put the beautiful maiden off so much that she burnt the loaves ?

Interesting how bits of legends make their way into other cultures, though perhaps not surprising in England during the years when Vikings mingled with Anglo-Saxons. Who knows, maybe Godiva's concealing hair did come from the story about Krake and Ragnar Lodbrok.

There's a story about Ragnar's son Ivarr the Boneless which says he was buried in a mound near the English seashore so that he could act as a Watcher, or guardian spirit. The same legend appears in stories about English King Harold Godwinsson - that his body was spirited away after the Battle of Hastings and buried overlooking the sea so that he could remain a Guardian of England. I've wondered if those two stories somehow got mixed up over the years.

Kate139 · Post by **Kate139** » Sat June 18th, 2011, 10:38 am

[quote=""annis""]Posted by Margaret

The same legend appears in stories about English King Harold Godwinsson - that his body was spirited away after the Battle of Hastings and buried overlooking the sea so that he could remain a Guardian of England. I've wondered if those two stories somehow got mixed up over the years.[/quote]

Isn't the concept of the returning "Messiah" waiting in the ground to return when needed a universal myth, in pretty well all cultures? In UK, we of course also have Jesus (reappearing on/from the Mount of Olives) and Arthur (reappearing from the Mount of Apples - Avalon) to add to the list plus Owen Glendower (not sure of my spelling on him!) plus I'm sure a few others.

annis · Post by **annis** » Sat June 18th, 2011, 9:25 pm

Very true, Kate, and I'm sure we had a "king under the mountain" thread going at one stage...

Here it is:
http://www.historicalfictiononline.com/ ... g+mountain

What struck me about these particular two stories was their similarity - both supposedly buried specifically on headlands overlooking the sea, and so on.

Carla · Post by **Carla** » Sat June 18th, 2011, 9:27 pm

[quote=""annis""]Posted by Margaret

Me, too

I'd be thinking, who does this arrogant s.o.b think he is? (A great king, obviously.) Maybe word of his glorious deeds had preceded him and she thought he was worth the effort?

Carla, I was wondering the same thing about the cooking. Unless those perving Vikings put the beautiful maiden off so much that she burnt the loaves ?

Interesting how bits of legends make their way into other cultures, though perhaps not surprising in England during the years when Vikings mingled with Anglo-Saxons. Who knows, maybe Godiva's concealing hair did come from the story about Krake and Ragnar Lodbrok.

There's a story about Ragnar's son Ivarr the Boneless which says he was buried in a mound near the English seashore so that he could act as a Watcher, or guardian spirit. The same legend appears in stories about English King Harold Godwinsson - that his body was spirited away after the Battle of Hastings and buried overlooking the sea so that he could remain a Guardian of England. I've wondered if those two stories somehow got mixed up over the years.[/quote]

The apparently impossible requirements list is a bit of a motif in folktales. I wonder if it started life as some sort of cryptic prophecy; 'you will know your true queen when she comes to you neither driving nor on foot, neither feasting nor fasting, neither alone nor in company....', and then somebody decided to make it a test set by Ragnar.

There's a Guardian or Watcher story somewhere in the Mabinogion, if I remember rightly; Bendeigeidfran directs his followers to bury his head at Dover (or London?) so that it will always guard Britain against invasion and plague. As Kate says, it seems to be universal.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun June 19th, 2011, 4:52 am

I wonder if it started life as some sort of cryptic prophecy; 'you will know your true queen when she comes to you neither driving nor on foot, neither feasting nor fasting, neither alone nor in company....', and then somebody decided to make it a test set by Ragnar.

I could easily believe that.