The Welsh trilogy

Misfit · Post by **Misfit** » Sat September 6th, 2008, 10:20 pm

[quote=""EC2""]It is my favourite of all the Penman's. I've read it 3 times I think. A good friend of mine on another board almost missed her wedding because she was desperate to find out what happened next. She was reading HBD in her wedding dress with her hair in rollers![/quote]

That's having it pretty bad.

I know when I got to that one spot in The Reckoning I literally had to put the book down and have a good long cry.

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 12:09 am

[quote=""EC2""]Ash, she married Llewelyn in 1205 and the event happened in 1230 when she would have been in her late 30's at least, so not exactly a teenager or even a young woman, but one old enough to have garnered some wisdom.[/quote]

Thanks for that. Ok, toss that theory out the window

I still say the guilt; its my story and Im sticking to it till better one comes along

LCW · Post by **LCW** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 12:19 am

[quote=""Misfit""]Whether it really happened or not I just loved the scene where he forgave her. Sob. I did drop a lot of tears in that series.[/quote]

Oh yes!! I was sobbing like a baby! I had to go finish reading upstairs so I could have a good cry without my fiance seeing me.

LCW · Post by **LCW** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 12:22 am

[quote=""nona""]to me if you love your spouse then you would not cheat under any circumstance, never in my life would I sleep with another man then my husband. I believe she got bored with her husband and he whooed her but I don't understand why she acted on it, does that make sense?[/quote]

I think infidelity is much more complicated then whether or not you still love your spouse. As long as there has been monogomy there has been infidelity. It's a human condition. There are plenty of people who cheat but who still very much love their spouses. We can argue the morality of someone who is unfaithful but the reasons for it are as varied as the people themselves.

nona · Post by **nona** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 2:27 pm

I saw both of my parents being unfaithful to one another then again in later relationships, thats why I'm so stead fast on the fact that I personally could not sleep with another man other then the one I said I do to, pretty sure it doesn't make sense to others but I believe if a person truely and whole hearted love the other unconditionally they would not even think of it. Thats a point of view from a very jaded person when it comes to the other sex and relationships due to experience.

LCW · Post by **LCW** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 6:40 pm

We definitely all have our own experiences! I've never cheated on anyone (other than just dating around when I was much younger) but I've been cheated on by a man who I know loved me. Whether or not he loved me wasn't the issue it was that I just couldn't forgive him. Obviously our relationship was not worth enough to me to want to work it out as there were other issues but love was not one of them.

I've also seen people cheat on each other but work through it and go on to have very loving and solid relationships with each other years later. Complete total faithfulness to one person is obviously the goal, and many many people achieve it, but the reality is that infidelity exists and is just a part of life.

nona · Post by **nona** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 9:07 pm

I couldn't stay with someone who'ld cheat. my oldest daughters biological father cheated two weeks before I had her, he said it was the pressure, yeah he wasn't the one working 40 hrs a week and huge, we stayed on friendly terms till he realized I wasn't coming back, which was when I told him I was marrying Ronnie. I always thought once a cheater always a cheater and stuck by my guns regardless of feelings.

nona · Post by **nona** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 9:10 pm

back to the triology, guilty of getting off subject, I know she left with a bit of info on Amaury and Guy and other characters but I wonder what happened after Wales was 'English-fied'.

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Sun September 7th, 2008, 9:39 pm

[quote=""nona""]I saw both of my parents being unfaithful to one another then again in later relationships, thats why I'm so stead fast on the fact that I personally could not sleep with another man other then the one I said I do to, pretty sure it doesn't make sense to others but I believe if a person truely and whole hearted love the other unconditionally they would not even think of it. Thats a point of view from a very jaded person when it comes to the other sex and relationships due to experience.[/quote]

I understand where you are coming from, and see your point.

> I believe if a person truely and whole hearted love the other unconditionally they would not even think of it.

Other than the fact that I am not sure there is such a thing (and you think You're jaded?

As lila said, the situation is much more complex than simply good or bad. I hope my husband of 20 and I continue to stay true to each other as well as honest with each other. Thats about all one can hope for.

sharon · Post by **sharon** » Sat November 1st, 2008, 6:10 pm

[quote=""nona""]when I got to that part in the book I found myself wondering if it was such a match, I guess they loved one another but under the pressure it cracked a little as some relationship do, at least they found it within themselves to move on ad find peace afterward.[/quote]

Hi, Nona,
You and Elizabeth raise a very interesting question, one that haunts writers. We can never really know the hearts of the people we write about. The best we can do is to evaluate the known facts and draw conclusions therefrom. To me, there was no doubt that Llewelyn loved Joanna because he was able to forgive her adultery, and adultery with an Englishman! For any husband, that would have been hard to deal with; imagine how painful it must have been for a prince when there were such dangerous political ramifications because of her betrayal. If he had not truly loved her, he could not have forgiven her. And the proof that they were able to mend the wounds in their marriage was given when she died and he founded a friary in her honor. You must remember that he had nothing to gain by restoring her to favor, for she was not popular with his people. In taking her back, he had to swim against the tide of public opinion.
So I think there is strong case to be made that he loved her. Did she love him? I think so, based on what we know of human nature. Llewelyn was a strong-willed, confident, charismatic individual, married to Joanna for more than 20 years at the time of her betrayal. I find it impossible to believe that he could have nursed an unrequited love for her during those twenty-plus years. In other words, if she had not returned his love, his would have died a natural death, starved into submission. I do not think he could have forgiven her--for her betrayal was political as well as personal, even casting doubts upon the legitimacy of his son Davydd--had he not loved her and had he not been confident that she loved him, too.
I think this is one reason why I always found Llewelyn to be such a fascinating figure in medieval history--that he was strong enough to forgive a public infidelity. Then you have Henry II, of course, who could not bring himself to forgive Eleanor for taking part in the rebellion against him.
It is always tricky to try to interpret human emotions across the span of centuries. Usually if a husband and wife spent most of their time together, that is a good indicator that they had a healthy marriage. Will Marshal and Isabel de Clare are a good example of this, as are the Duke of York and Cecily Neville, and in Devil's Brood, Geoffrey and Constance. When they seem to find reasons to keep apart, as with Richard and Berengaria during the last five years of their marriage, that certainly raises red flags.
Sharon