). "Mists of Avalon" is a favourite of mine, too...and I am sure that yours, Jules, will be equally wonderful
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Maypoles, etc.
Maypoles, etc.
Thank you for the very informative and interesting explanations about Druids/Celts etc. Sometimes it seems there is something 'in the blood' that, no matter how many layers have been placed over it, doesn't let the old Celtic/ye olde Englande fade altogether. (Maypoles and Mummers and Morris Dancers etc. etc. and am so glad that this year they overturned the ridiculous health and safety rules that stopped them having the Ripon Pancake race today! ).
"Mists of Avalon" is a favourite of mine, too...and I am sure that yours, Jules, will be equally wonderful
). "Mists of Avalon" is a favourite of mine, too...and I am sure that yours, Jules, will be equally wonderful
[quote=""Christina""]Thank you for the very informative and interesting explanations about Druids/Celts etc. Sometimes it seems there is something 'in the blood' that, no matter how many layers have been placed over it, doesn't let the old Celtic/ye olde Englande fade altogether. (Maypoles and Mummers and Morris Dancers etc. etc. and am so glad that this year they overturned the ridiculous health and safety rules that stopped them having the Ripon Pancake race today! ).
"Mists of Avalon" is a favourite of mine, too...and I am sure that yours, Jules, will be equally wonderful [/quote]
Nevermind that maypoles, mummers and morris dancers date from late medieval, Christian Britain. Morris dancing stems a Middle-Eastern form of dance brought over via Spain or Italy. If anyone knows of a reference to maypoles before the mid-16th century, I would love to see it. Something known as mumming went on in the medieval period, but we have no idea what that was. Despite what Frazer and Graves assumed, mumming can't be dated back farther than the mid 1700s. Ewan MacColl compared it to the Court of Miracles in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, but I think that is a stretch.
So none of this is a matter of 'layers' as none of this was a part of Celtic Britain.
). "Mists of Avalon" is a favourite of mine, too...and I am sure that yours, Jules, will be equally wonderful
[/quote]Nevermind that maypoles, mummers and morris dancers date from late medieval, Christian Britain. Morris dancing stems a Middle-Eastern form of dance brought over via Spain or Italy. If anyone knows of a reference to maypoles before the mid-16th century, I would love to see it. Something known as mumming went on in the medieval period, but we have no idea what that was. Despite what Frazer and Graves assumed, mumming can't be dated back farther than the mid 1700s. Ewan MacColl compared it to the Court of Miracles in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, but I think that is a stretch.
So none of this is a matter of 'layers' as none of this was a part of Celtic Britain.
[quote=""Volgadon""]Nevermind that maypoles, mummers and morris dancers date from late medieval, Christian Britain. Morris dancing stems a Middle-Eastern form of dance brought over via Spain or Italy. If anyone knows of a reference to maypoles before the mid-16th century, I would love to see it. Something known as mumming went on in the medieval period, but we have no idea what that was. Despite what Frazer and Graves assumed, mumming can't be dated back farther than the mid 1700s. Ewan MacColl compared it to the Court of Miracles in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, but I think that is a stretch.
So none of this is a matter of 'layers' as none of this was a part of Celtic Britain.[/quote]
The Maypoles certainly go back to Celtric/Druid times of bringing in the tree from the woods at the beginning of May and dancing in the fertility rituals. Not far from where I live, are woods and a present-day village Maypole which marks that tradition going back to the pre-Roman era. Mummers might be more recent, but I am convinced that Morris Dancing is based on the same ancient rituals for scaring away 'evil spirits'. By layers and layers, I mean the layers of Christianity that were put on top of the older religion as the suggestion of Pope Gregory....So many churches and sites around here go back to the days and it is even reflected in their names. Being in those places, one has such a sense of it all....mystical woods etc. etc.
So none of this is a matter of 'layers' as none of this was a part of Celtic Britain.[/quote]
The Maypoles certainly go back to Celtric/Druid times of bringing in the tree from the woods at the beginning of May and dancing in the fertility rituals. Not far from where I live, are woods and a present-day village Maypole which marks that tradition going back to the pre-Roman era. Mummers might be more recent, but I am convinced that Morris Dancing is based on the same ancient rituals for scaring away 'evil spirits'. By layers and layers, I mean the layers of Christianity that were put on top of the older religion as the suggestion of Pope Gregory....So many churches and sites around here go back to the days and it is even reflected in their names. Being in those places, one has such a sense of it all....mystical woods etc. etc.
And where did you hear that? There are no historical sources indicating any such practices. Here is an excellent debunking by a pagan. There are literally tons of rubbish written about the druids, none of it going back much farther than the mid 1700s.
As I said before, I would love to see any historical source indicating that maypoles were in use before the 1500s.
Morris dancing was an English variation on Spanish and Italian court dances which were all the rage in the late medieval period. These dances were derived from Middle-Eastern dance forms involving lots of intricate legwork and kerchief-brandishing, accompanied by pipes of different sorts and darbukkas. Morris derives from Moorish.
Blackface morris was performed in some parts of the Welsh Marches but hardly extensive. There are far more obvious explanations for it than ancient pre-Christian rituals for driving out evil spirits. Consider the sort of thing that went on during holidays, lots of drinking and vandalism. You wouldn't necesarily want your boss or in-laws to realise who smashed their fence and peed on their garden.
I have an uncle who once wrote a letter to family and friends describing barbecues as ancient pagan rites. It is a wonderful example of Gravesian logic. You see, the ancient Canaanites would offer up sacrifices upon their altars during festivals. A high priest would officiate at the ritual, muttering different incantations and so on. We live within the territory of ancient Canaan, so, naturally, there must be some echoes preserved within the national consciousness. What happens at a barbecue is this. The community gathers together on a festival day. Someone is chosen to take charge of the whole affair (often hereditary). He prepares the mangal, a metal box which must be a modern survival of the ancient altar, heaping it with coals and ritually cleansing the grill with onions. Sometimes special substances are sprinkled over the coals, in hopes of a more propitous sacrifice. The officiator jealously guards his position, invoking the help of nature gods by fanning the flames with some sort of object, in hopes that they will be pacified by the smoke. He chants various things and sings.
When the time is judged right, the offering is placed on the altar.
The officiator lays claim to the best piece. The rest is divided among the community, just as in olden times. How can anyone doubt that barbecues are rooted in ancient pagan rituals? =)
As I said before, I would love to see any historical source indicating that maypoles were in use before the 1500s.
Morris dancing was an English variation on Spanish and Italian court dances which were all the rage in the late medieval period. These dances were derived from Middle-Eastern dance forms involving lots of intricate legwork and kerchief-brandishing, accompanied by pipes of different sorts and darbukkas. Morris derives from Moorish.
Blackface morris was performed in some parts of the Welsh Marches but hardly extensive. There are far more obvious explanations for it than ancient pre-Christian rituals for driving out evil spirits. Consider the sort of thing that went on during holidays, lots of drinking and vandalism. You wouldn't necesarily want your boss or in-laws to realise who smashed their fence and peed on their garden.
I have an uncle who once wrote a letter to family and friends describing barbecues as ancient pagan rites. It is a wonderful example of Gravesian logic. You see, the ancient Canaanites would offer up sacrifices upon their altars during festivals. A high priest would officiate at the ritual, muttering different incantations and so on. We live within the territory of ancient Canaan, so, naturally, there must be some echoes preserved within the national consciousness. What happens at a barbecue is this. The community gathers together on a festival day. Someone is chosen to take charge of the whole affair (often hereditary). He prepares the mangal, a metal box which must be a modern survival of the ancient altar, heaping it with coals and ritually cleansing the grill with onions. Sometimes special substances are sprinkled over the coals, in hopes of a more propitous sacrifice. The officiator jealously guards his position, invoking the help of nature gods by fanning the flames with some sort of object, in hopes that they will be pacified by the smoke. He chants various things and sings.
When the time is judged right, the offering is placed on the altar.
The officiator lays claim to the best piece. The rest is divided among the community, just as in olden times. How can anyone doubt that barbecues are rooted in ancient pagan rituals? =)
Is this the proper place for pagan debates? I mean shouldnt we be celebrating that one of our members has a new book out. Maybe the rest belongs in the debate forum.
Right or not, I still want to read the book and I dont care what slant there is on that is Druid or Pagan. It sounds like a fun read.
Right or not, I still want to read the book and I dont care what slant there is on that is Druid or Pagan. It sounds like a fun read.
News, views, and reviews on books and graphic novels for young adult.
http://yabookmarks.blogspot.com/
http://yabookmarks.blogspot.com/
Volgadon, I like your barbecue story .
The problem with the Celts (as in so much of what can be 'proved' about history) is that they didn't write things down so there aren't archives to prove these things. Yes, the 'national consciousness' holds a lot and, over time, practices are blended into whatever the popular culture of the era happens to be. Yes, too, there is so much nonsense written about certain festivals and people viewing the past throug rose-coloured spectacles.
That having been said, I believe that there are things that have been handed down generation to generation - often without words or proof. The Morris Dancers may have come from the Moors, but that was a blending in - much as Christianity blended in - with what was already going on. Maypoles are the 'offspring' of ancient fertility rites (the rites, which actually took place in May and are attested to by the ancient chalk carvings in the hills and various artefacts), when trees were honoured as symbols of Nature etc.
It isn't possible to prove these things by citing 'evidence' but there is a sense beyond written evidence, which, I believe, applies to all kinds of interpretations of history. Sometimes images speak more clearly than words and there is a sense of 'homecoming' or belonging about them. Perhaps it wasn't the Celts or Druids (why attach it to a label of a particular era?) but these traditions are 'in our blood'. Over time, they have adapted (a peculiarly weird English trait, perhaps) but it's 'there'. With they 'hey nonny nos' and the legends of Glastonbury, the Maypoles, the rites...the Pagan stuff that never quite went away....
. The problem with the Celts (as in so much of what can be 'proved' about history) is that they didn't write things down so there aren't archives to prove these things. Yes, the 'national consciousness' holds a lot and, over time, practices are blended into whatever the popular culture of the era happens to be. Yes, too, there is so much nonsense written about certain festivals and people viewing the past throug rose-coloured spectacles.
That having been said, I believe that there are things that have been handed down generation to generation - often without words or proof. The Morris Dancers may have come from the Moors, but that was a blending in - much as Christianity blended in - with what was already going on. Maypoles are the 'offspring' of ancient fertility rites (the rites, which actually took place in May and are attested to by the ancient chalk carvings in the hills and various artefacts), when trees were honoured as symbols of Nature etc.
It isn't possible to prove these things by citing 'evidence' but there is a sense beyond written evidence, which, I believe, applies to all kinds of interpretations of history. Sometimes images speak more clearly than words and there is a sense of 'homecoming' or belonging about them. Perhaps it wasn't the Celts or Druids (why attach it to a label of a particular era?) but these traditions are 'in our blood'. Over time, they have adapted (a peculiarly weird English trait, perhaps) but it's 'there'. With they 'hey nonny nos' and the legends of Glastonbury, the Maypoles, the rites...the Pagan stuff that never quite went away....
But the point is that nothing of the sort WAS going on. A gap of 1500 years makes it a bit hard to swallow the national consciousness thing.
So what is it specificaly about morris that makes you think about pagan rites?
If by chalk carvings you mean the rude man, as far as can be shown he is from the end of the 17th century. I think a bunch of villagers with the mentality of your average nuts reader are just as likely an explanation as pagan fertility rites.
As for hey nonny no, have you ever heard of Lada and Lel?
A huge amount of fakelore has sprung up around these figures, claiming them to be the ancient Slavic deities of love, when in fact they were nothing more than a refrain in some Slavic songs. Naturally any gibberish word was seized upon as a deity of some sorts.
So what is it specificaly about morris that makes you think about pagan rites?
If by chalk carvings you mean the rude man, as far as can be shown he is from the end of the 17th century. I think a bunch of villagers with the mentality of your average nuts reader are just as likely an explanation as pagan fertility rites.
As for hey nonny no, have you ever heard of Lada and Lel?
A huge amount of fakelore has sprung up around these figures, claiming them to be the ancient Slavic deities of love, when in fact they were nothing more than a refrain in some Slavic songs. Naturally any gibberish word was seized upon as a deity of some sorts.
''a bunch of villagers with the mentality of your average nuts reader are just as likely an explanation as pagan fertility rites.''
I think that's a slightly unfair description. The Cerne Giant (or the rude man, if you prefer) has a very powerful aura about it. It's certainly pagan, whenever it was carved.
People of the West Country have always held on to their land based spirituality. They resisted authority more than the rest of the country and were among the last in the UK to bow to the reformation. If you go there even now you'll notice the change in pace and atmosphere. It's the land of Stonehenge, Glastonbury, big cat sightings, magic and ancient folklore.
None of this can be proved, but then why should it be?
I think that's a slightly unfair description. The Cerne Giant (or the rude man, if you prefer) has a very powerful aura about it. It's certainly pagan, whenever it was carved.
People of the West Country have always held on to their land based spirituality. They resisted authority more than the rest of the country and were among the last in the UK to bow to the reformation. If you go there even now you'll notice the change in pace and atmosphere. It's the land of Stonehenge, Glastonbury, big cat sightings, magic and ancient folklore.
None of this can be proved, but then why should it be?