Birth Order

[Ash]

Sharon Penman writes about the supposed relationship between Henry II and Alice (Alys) in her author notes of Devil's Brood, and pretty much tosses that theory out the window. (tho she admits loving Lion in Winter, it pretty much is full of inaccurate portrayasl)

[annis]

I think I mentioned before, EC, that I checked out further info online after reading "A Time of Singing" because all the various connections were so interesting. I still haven't recovered from dipping my toe into the poisonous waters of the online genealogy forums- those people are rabid!

[boswellbaxter]

[quote=""annis""]I think I mentioned before, EC, that I checked out further info online after reading "A Time of Singing" because all the various connections were so interesting. I still haven't recovered from dipping my toe into the poisonous waters of the online genealogy forums- those people are rabid![/quote]

If you want to see a good genealogical catfight, go to

soc.genealogy.medieval

and search "Amy de Gaveston." It's a very knowledgeable group, but not for the faint of heart!

[annis]

Yikes - they don't spare any punches, do they? And often done with such vicious politeness!

[EC2]

[quote=""boswellbaxter""]If you want to see a good genealogical catfight, go to

soc.genealogy.medieval

and search "Amy de Gaveston." It's a very knowledgeable group, but not for the faint of heart![/quote]

I drop in on Soc Gen medieval periodically -another of my procrastination things - and I recognise a few of the names. Usually when there's stuff to be stirred, they'll be right there with their best spoons!

[Rowan]

[quote=""Amanda""]
By Ikenai
Geoffrey (b 1151/3? d 1212) Archbishop of York
William Longspree Earl of Salisbury (b before 1170 d 1226)
Peter (called a brother of Geoffrey)
[/quote]

Is Ikenai Rosamond Clifford?

[Susan]

[quote=""Rowan""]Is Ikenai Rosamond Clifford?[/quote]

No, Ikenai (or Ykenai or Hikenai) has been described as a low-born harlot and Henry's concubine. Rosamund Clifford was the daughter of the Marcher lord Walter de Clifford and Margaret Isobel de Tosny. As EC has already explained that part of the list is in error. This site has some info about Henry's legitimate and illegitimate children.
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... nry002.htm

This is from Rosamund Clifford's Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosamund_C ... hildren.3F

"Historians are divided over whether or not Rosamund's relationship with the King produced children. The question is complicated by the difficulty of separating the facts of Rosamund's life from the profusion of legends surrounding it. Many historians have concluded that Rosamund most likely bore Henry a single child but cannot identify it or even provide a specific date of birth. Some modern writers, including Alison Weir, are of the opinion that Rosamund had no children; but whether this means she never gave birth or merely that none of her children survived remains unclear.

Legend has attributed to Rosamund two of King Henry's favourite illegitimate sons: Geoffrey Plantagenet (1151–1212), Archbishop of York, and William Longsword (17 August before 1180–1226), Earl of Salisbury. Her maternity in these two cases was not widely believed at the time but was claimed centuries later. Geoffrey is now not accepted as Rosamund's son. Henry and Rosamund met about 1163, and their relationship lasted until 1176. Geoffrey and Rosamund would therefore have been about the same age which ruins any chance of Rosamund being his mother. Geoffrey was almost certainly the son of Ykenai, another mistress of Henry. William de Longespee's maternity was a mystery for many years but the truth was discovered when charters issued by him were found to contain references to "Comitissa Ida, mater mea." (Bradenstoke Cartulary, 1979). This Ida is now known to be Ida, Countess of Norfolk. She was daughter to Ralph Tosny and Margaret de Beaumont."

[Rowan]

hmmm...