Birth Order

Rowan · Post by **Rowan** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 5:33 am

Okay I admit it up front: I am feeling extraordinarily lazy tonight.

I do not feel like thumbing back through the book I am currently reading to figure out the birth order of the children of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry II. Is the listing as it is given on the right side-bar of the Wikipedia article on Henry II the correct birth order?

Is the bastard son that Henry insists on bringing to live with them also named Geoffrey or was it only Henry and Eleanor's son?

Also, Jean Plaidy seemed to indicate that William died not in infancy but a few years into his life. Perhaps 8-10 years.

Amanda · Post by **Amanda** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 5:48 am

Further down the wiki entry in the Death and Sucession bit, it mentions his illegitimate son Geoffery the Archbishop of York. I thought that there was a girl a little earlier in the line up.

Ahh...if you go to the wiki page for Eleanor, Mathilda comes in between Henry and Richard. Will need to check more sources.

Amanda · Post by **Amanda** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 5:57 am

I had Alison Weirs genealogy book handy!

Henry and Eleanor's children:
William (b 1153 d 1156)
Henry (b 1155 d 1183)
Matilda (b 1156 d 1189)
Richard (b 1157 d 1199)
Geoffrey (b 1158 d 1186)
Eleanor (b 1162 d 1214)
Joan (b 1165 d 1199)
John (b 1166 d 1216)

Henry's illegitimate children:

By Ikenai
Geoffrey (b 1151/3? d 1212) Archbishop of York
William Longspree Earl of Salisbury (b before 1170 d 1226)
Peter (called a brother of Geoffrey)

By Alice, daughter of Louis VII
4 children, all died young

By Nesta:
Morgan

By Alice de Porhoet
Child details unknown

Unknown mothers:
Matilda Abbess of Barking
Hugh of Wells
Richard (?)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 11:02 am

Alison Weir has made mistakes in her books regarding genealogy, but what Amanda listed looks fairly accurate. The birth order of Henry and Eleanor's children is correct as well as the birth/death dates.

There is some uncertainty about whether Henry had children with Alys, the daughter of Louis XII of France, or even if she was his mistress. Most sources list Henry as having at least 12 illegitimate children and that figure would seem to include children by Alys.

Henry's father was named Geoffrey and that's probably why he had a legitimate and an illegitimate son with that name. The illegitimate Geoffrey was the Archbishop of York, remained loyal to Henry, and was his only son at his deathbed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey,_ ... op_of_York

EC2 · Post by **EC2** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 11:19 am

The Ikenai business in the above list is wrong in that William Longespee was Henry's son by Ida de Tosny, one of Henry's wards, who went on to become Countess of Norfolk. This has been proven without a doubt from primary source records - Bradenstoke Cartulary and list of prisoners taken after the battle of Bouvines in 1214. I cover Ida's story in The Time of Singing - which is why I know!!!
Edited because forgot to add that William Longespee was probably born much closer to 1180 and was certainly not a maternal brother of Geoffrey or of Peter.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 12:10 pm

[quote=""EC2""]The Ikenai business in the above list is wrong in that William Longespee was Henry's son by Ida de Tosny, one of Henry's wards, who went on to become Countess of Norfolk. This has been proven without a doubt from primary source records - Bradenstoke Cartulary and list of prisoners taken after the battle of Bouvines in 1214. I cover Ida's story in The Time of Singing - which is why I know!!!
Edited because forgot to add that William Longespee was probably born much closer to 1180 and was certainly not a maternal brother of Geoffrey or of Peter.[/quote]

Geoffrey's Wikipedia article says Ikenai was his mother and William's Wikipedia article makes mention of Ida and says he was born c. 1176.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de ... _Salisbury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey,_ ... op_of_York

One genealogy website lists Geoffrey, William and Peter's mother as Rosamund Clifford and another lists Ida as their mother!!!! Lots of confusion out there! I'm going with EC!
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?pe ... 0&tree=LEO
http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedl ... royal05823

EC2 · Post by **EC2** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 3:29 pm

[quote=""Susan""]Geoffrey's Wikipedia article says Ikenai was his mother and William's Wikipedia article makes mention of Ida and says he was born c. 1176.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de ... _Salisbury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey,_ ... op_of_York

One genealogy website lists Geoffrey, William and Peter's mother as Rosamund Clifford and another lists Ida as their mother!!!! Lots of confusion out there! I'm going with EC!
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?pe ... 0&tree=LEO
http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedl ... royal05823[/quote]

The Ikenai confusion may arise over the lands that Ida held. I can't find my resource now, but part of her holdings consisted of a village calle Akeny. So one can easily see a chronicler making the link. The timeline is not right for Ida having been Geoffrey's mother, because she was only a child herself when Geoffrey was born and her parents probably still alive. I believe that Ida was the mistress who followed in Rosamund Clifford's shoes and that Longespee's birth would have been any time from circa 1176 earliest up to late 1180 at the latest. The Bradenstoke Cartulary has an entry where Longespee gives alms for the souls of 'Ela his wife, and the Countess Ida, his mother.' Then you get the prison list roll for the battle of Bouvines and there mentioned is 'Ralph Bigod' brother of William Longespee. Ida married Roger Bigod at Christmas 1181 and Ralph was one of their younger sons, born sometime after 1186. A letter from Roger Bigod to Hubert de Burgh, mentions his captive son Ralf. 'Radulfo filio meo' for whom he is trying to raise the ransom by calling in his debts. It's all cross checking sleuth work that proves teenage heiress Ida de Tosny shared Henry II's bed and produced William Longespee before she was married off to Roger Bigod, future earl of Norfolk.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 3:39 pm

Thanks, EC! I don't need your resource because I'll always take your word on things like this! When did the medieval English start to have reliable birth or baptismal records?

Leyland · Post by **Leyland** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 3:44 pm

[quote=""EC2""]It's all cross checking sleuth work that proves ..[/quote]
It all comes down to due diligence and thorough standards of care! I love it. You're lucky to do it so well for a living, EC.

EC2 · Post by **EC2** » Sun January 4th, 2009, 4:07 pm

[quote=""Susan""]Thanks, EC! I don't need your resource because I'll always take your word on things like this! When did the medieval English start to have reliable birth or baptismal records?[/quote]

I can't answer that one Susan - sorry! I'd just have to wave my hand vaguely in the direction of later centuries than the 12th and 13th!
Leyland and Susan - most of the information is available online, so I can't take the credit for it. The only thing I have done is cross check it where possible (some of the genealogy sites tend to play fast and loose with facts) and collate it because one site has one detail, and another has a different one. The bits that I have independent of the Internet, I was lucky enough to find while reading research material.