Ladies Against Feminism- so shocked I had to click

[Helen_Davis]

[quote=""LCW""]The problem with this argument is that the notion of what is "feminine" is so relative and changes with the times and with different cultures and societies. Because the world is run by men and the feminist movement sought to change the very perceptions of what is feminine and what is masculine. Those who are stuck on the notion that women should be soft spoken, gentle, demure, etc. will obviously think that a woman with a strong personality who is highly opinionated and has ambition is behaving too "masculine".

It is the very idea of what is feminine vs. what is masculine that is slowly changing in our society. The old ideas of appropriate behavior for women are changing in order to allow them to break molds and branch out into territories and careers that were traditionally male. I stongly disagree that a feminist is trying to be masculine. It is just that she wants to challenge the gender sterotypes that have kept women subservient to men for so long.

While we're on the subject, if we want women to be "feminine" maybe next time woman who is beautiful, dresses well, wears make-up, and doesn't man-down her look runs for public office we as a society can judge her based on her ideas, experience, and character rather than her appearance! I'm speaking specifically of Sara Palin. I may vehemently disagree with her politics and think her intellect leaves much to be desired but the sexist treatment from the media pissed me off as much as it did when they were doing it to Hillary Clinton![/quote]
agreed entirely! Gender is socially constructed, IMO.

[Leo62]

Ah well. It takes all sorts I guess.

Way too wordy - who is going to bother to wade through all that text apart from the, er, converted?

If they want to be provocative, they need a better copy-editor

[princess garnet]

Here's their introductory letter:

http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/starthere.htm

It explains what they are and not, even if you don't agree with it.

[Christina]

Gender is socially constructed, IMO Hmmm...I am not sure about that. There are differences in the way males and females think and behave. It might be hormonal or some other physical reason (men - in general - are physically stronger; women, I believe, are more intuitive) and I honestly believe it is more than socially constructed. It's true that for centuries the world has been dominated by a masculine way of thinking, and people have been forced into rigid stereo-types. This has been difficult for both sexes and is ridiculous but, at the same time, in trying to make it an even playing field, I sometimes think that the finer aspects of what it means to be feminine, have been lost, as have the finer aspects of what it means to be masculine.

Ladies Against Feminism seems a bit pointless. Why not just call themselves 'Ladies' and do what they want to do, believe what they want to believe? Why do they have to be 'against' something else? Most peculiar!

[John Royce]

As an author with a viewpoint, of course, I have some thoughts about this. I think historical fiction is very powerful and important to human progress going forward, for it is the new imperative of the 21st Century that we remember the mistakes of the past and don't repeat them.

The "Ladies Against Feminism" are making such a mistake. There is some kind of forgetting malady that afflicts the human race, which causes a cyclical rinse-and-repeat of mistakes leading to horrors. Societal memory is an Etch-O-Sketch that is erased with the flow of new generations. Historical fiction holds great value if it can illuminate the past and "bring it to life" so that humans can see and remember.

The value of powerful HF is seen, for instance, in the Holocaust remembrances including books and films that have kept this awful history alive for the past decades. Often the accurate fictionalized accounts are the ones that sear society's memory and make the longest lasting impression. (ie, Schindler's List) And we have managed, so far, to avoid having a repeat of that particular disaster. As long as that lesson remains in our consciousness, we have a chance to avoid repeating the mistake.

The "Ladies Against Feminism" don't understand the implications of what they are doing. Having lived in a world where women have autonomy and self-determination, they have grown self-serving individual consciousnesses that now seek to undo the gains won by feminism. They are imagining a world that they would prefer, and further imagining that feminists are standing in the way. If they do get their way, such anti-feminists will have a big surprise when they find out that the "natural order" does not include them having any thoughts at all and that it is brutalizing tribal thugs that will own them, because without liberal ideals the men they so lovingly wish to serve will revert to treating them as troublesome property.

How to engage people who don't have the grace or knowledge to understand that the human animal and civilized man are completely different? How to show the warning of the past?

This is why I believe that gripping, accurately rendered, fact-based, empathetic Historical Fiction has a role in educating society going forward. Maybe even a vital one. It preserves the present and honors our ancestors to let their cries be heard today.

[Ludmilla]

[quote=""Christina""]Gender is socially constructed, IMO Hmmm...I am not sure about that. There are differences in the way males and females think and behave. It might be hormonal or some other physical reason (men - in general - are physically stronger; women, I believe, are more intuitive) and I honestly believe it is more than socially constructed. It's true that for centuries the world has been dominated by a masculine way of thinking, and people have been forced into rigid stereo-types. This has been difficult for both sexes and is ridiculous but, at the same time, in trying to make it an even playing field, I sometimes think that the finer aspects of what it means to be feminine, have been lost, as have the finer aspects of what it means to be masculine.

Ladies Against Feminism seems a bit pointless. Why not just call themselves 'Ladies' and do what they want to do, believe what they want to believe? Why do they have to be 'against' something else? Most peculiar![/quote]

I agree with you, Christina. I tend to think gender is a lot like the nature vs nurture debate. It's a mix of both, and almost impossible to ascertain whether more of one than the other (and probably highly variable).

[LCW]

I personally think that there is a biological baseline for gender. Gender and gender identity is very much influenced by our own individual physiological makeup. But then society and culture shapes gender ideas and ideals as well.

John Royce, you make some excellent points! I love the comparison of our short memories to an etch-a-sketch. That's brilliant! Women today take so much for granted because we don't know what it's like to be owned by our fathers, husbands, or brothers. Or thought of as imperfect versions of men. We don't know what it's like to slaves to our reproductive cycles! So we don't care about these rights that these awful "manly" feminists have fought for. IMO, it's really disprespectful to be so cavalier about what previous generations of women have fought and earned for us by their blood, sweat, and tears. We owe those women a huge debt and we can repay it by appreciating the rights we have and not taking them for granted or worse, allowing them to be infringed upon!

[John Royce]

Thanks for your response, LCW. It's true that we all take a lot for granted, and don't always appreciate what has gone before.

I think it's even a bit worse, though--it seems like many don't even realize there is anything vital to be learned from the past. Like we are self-contained, without debt to anything. So when ancient truths begin to reassert themselves, such as the wars and economic meltdowns, it is a just whole new day. This is a bad situation: We need to learn from our past, and hold the lessons.

It seems particularly egregious for these "anti-feminist" Ladies, because in the entire history of mankind (see?) there have only been temporary pockets of equality for women. Womankind has been liberated only in the last century, yet already a significant number of women seem to take their freedoms as established and assured.

Personally I think gender has biological origins that became codified in a Might Makes Right world of domination by brawn. If we return to a "Might Makes Right" society, I think all the old injustices will return again. I don't know for sure, and would rather not see it.

One reason I love historical fiction is its potential to educate. HF can bring the past alive and show truth in a way not possible from a textbook. We have to find ways to remember. If you could somehow show those "Ladies against Feminism" some examples of the past, they may reach some different conclusions.

[C.P]

Some people just take it too far. I'm a very religious person, but more balanced. Women should have rights.

[LoveHistory]

Women do have rights. They're just not recognized by everyone.