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For the King by Catherine Delors

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Margaret
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Post by Margaret » Thu August 5th, 2010, 4:10 am

The torture debate is still going on in the US, and the lesson I draw from it is that many are perfectly comfortable with it, because it only happens to "bad" people, or at least people unfortunate enough to be mistaken for bad people.
Another aspect of For the King that I heartily applaud is the way it presents torture as not just horrible but ineffective in getting at the truth.

For so many years, it seems that novelists and, even more so, television and film writers have been portraying torture scenes as if torture were invariably effective at extracting accurate information from the person being tortured. Scenes might evoke sympathy and horror if the person being tortured was a "good guy," but they have usually shown that person "breaking" and giving accurate information. Actually, FBI and CIA operatives who are in a position to know have said that statements made under torture are generally extremely unreliable, making torture a particularly poor way of getting information. It would be a good thing for writers of fiction (especially writers who are highly skilled at making their scenes believable!) to develop a sense of responsibility about issues like this. It's one thing if a writer genuinely believes torture is effective; quite another if the writer is just taking the easy way out when trying to write a dramatic scene.

Kudos to you, Catherine, for not taking the easy way out!
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Catherine Delors
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Post by Catherine Delors » Thu August 5th, 2010, 7:06 am

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]Do you have a link? I've googled it but I can't find it. Did you read the Anne Somerset book on the Poisons? I thought it was very good.[/quote]

Here it is:
http://boutique.ina.fr/video/economie-e ... ns.fr.html

Done from La Reynie's notes. As in the story of the Beast, accusations of witchcraft cover serial killings. I recommend other programs in the series as well.

No, I haven't read the Somerset book. It is apparently her only work on French history. Does she manage to mentally "cross the Channel"?

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Catherine Delors
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Post by Catherine Delors » Thu August 5th, 2010, 9:50 am

[quote=""Margaret""]Another aspect of For the King that I heartily applaud is the way it presents torture as not just horrible but ineffective in getting at the truth.

For so many years, it seems that novelists and, even more so, television and film writers have been portraying torture scenes as if torture were invariably effective at extracting accurate information from the person being tortured. Scenes might evoke sympathy and horror if the person being tortured was a "good guy," but they have usually shown that person "breaking" and giving accurate information. Actually, FBI and CIA operatives who are in a position to know have said that statements made under torture are generally extremely unreliable, making torture a particularly poor way of getting information. It would be a good thing for writers of fiction (especially writers who are highly skilled at making their scenes believable!) to develop a sense of responsibility about issues like this. It's one thing if a writer genuinely believes torture is effective; quite another if the writer is just taking the easy way out when trying to write a dramatic scene.

Kudos to you, Catherine, for not taking the easy way out![/quote]

Thanks, Margaret! I believe that torture is unjustifiable on moral grounds. I also believe it is ineffective as a means of investigation. It is therefore normal that these beliefs be reflected in my novels.

Second, in the case of the Rue Nicaise investigation, it is an established fact that the would-be assassin Saint-Regent was horribly tortured for days on end, to no avail. The snippets quoted in FOR THE KING are taken from the actual transcript of his deposition.

We reach here the issue of the ethics of writing histfic. Sure, it is fiction. But there is no hiding the fact that many readers will take what they get in a historical novel as historical fact. This is different from other types of fiction, and it gives the historical novelist a specific duty not to mislead her reader.

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Miss Moppet
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Post by Miss Moppet » Thu August 5th, 2010, 9:53 pm

[quote=""Catherine Delors""]Here it is:
http://boutique.ina.fr/video/economie-e ... ns.fr.html

Done from La Reynie's notes. As in the story of the Beast, accusations of witchcraft cover serial killings. I recommend other programs in the series as well.

No, I haven't read the Somerset book. It is apparently her only work on French history. Does she manage to mentally "cross the Channel"?[/quote]

Thanks so much - I will check the link out.

It's a few years since I've read the Somerset - my recollection is she does a pretty good job of tackling a complex subject and doesn't make any egregious mistakes as far as French ancien regime culture goes. There's also a book on the Poisons by Frances Mossiker but I didn't like it as much as her book on the Diamond Necklace, because she doesn't quote as much from primary sources, although they exist in abundance. Sorry to hear your relatives were among the victims, Catherine!

Re ineffectiveness of torture, the Poisons Affair evidence certainly backs this up. So many of the suspects confessed to all sorts of stuff when given the question - which they promptly recanted later in the trial. Impossible to know at what point, if any, they were telling the truth.

What was the experience of using the Prefecture archives like? Where are they based?

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Catherine Delors
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Post by Catherine Delors » Fri August 6th, 2010, 8:11 am

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]Sorry to hear your relatives were among the victims, Catherine!

Re ineffectiveness of torture, the Poisons Affair evidence certainly backs this up. So many of the suspects confessed to all sorts of stuff when given the question - which they promptly recanted later in the trial. Impossible to know at what point, if any, they were telling the truth.

What was the experience of using the Prefecture archives like? Where are they based?[/quote]

One of my relatives is among the alleged victims. Personally I doubt she was poisoned, but then... There are so many gaping holes in the story of the Poisons. Certainly the use of torture casts doubt on many so-called confessions, promptly recanted.

The Prefecture Archives are in the 5eme arrondissement. http://www.prefecturedepolice.interieur ... -de-police

I love archives in general. The smell of old paper, the feeling of expectation when you open a brittle folder and look at documents that haven't seen the light of day in decades... My favourite are the military archives in Vincennes, though, because of the grand C17 setting. Louis XIV is still all over the place.

BTW Vincennes has been restored recently, and it is a wonderful experience to visit a late medieval royal palace. If ever you come to Paris one of these days... But I digress. :)

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Michy
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Post by Michy » Wed August 18th, 2010, 2:59 am

Were the characters of Blanche, Madame de Clery and Coudert actual historical people? Or your own creations?

So far I like the character of Old Miquel the best; he is an interesting character and much smarter than his son. ;)

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Catherine Delors
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Post by Catherine Delors » Wed August 18th, 2010, 9:44 am

Blanche is a composite of various historical characters (distant echoes of Madame Recamier) but I would say she is mostly fictional. Her mother and husband are purely fictional.

Agreed, Old Miquel is far more insightful than his son. But then he has the advantage of having lived longer. He is also less guarded, which will land them both in some serious trouble. You'll see...

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Post by Michy » Thu August 19th, 2010, 6:30 am

I am a bit confused on one small point. At the end of the book, Roch thinks back to the death of his mother and siblings, and remembers being told that they had died in a snowstorm. But didn't it say somewhere earlier in the book that they had died of typhoid?

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Catherine Delors
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Post by Catherine Delors » Thu August 19th, 2010, 6:42 am

Typhoid? No, no one dies of typhoid in the novel, and the disease is never mentioned.

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Michy
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Post by Michy » Thu August 19th, 2010, 3:04 pm

Hmmmm am I really losing it? :confused: Maybe I'm getting your book mixed up with the one I read just before it. I'm going to scan back through -- I was sure there was a mention earlier in the book about the death of Roch's mother and siblings while Roch and his father were away in Paris ...?

I enjoyed the book, by the way. I haven't read any detective fiction in a long time, so it was a nice change of pace.

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