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Atheism Vs Christmas

A place to debate issues or to rant about what's on your mind. In addition to discussions about historical fiction, books, the publishing industry, and history, discussions about current political, social, and religious issues and other topics are allowed, so those who are easily offended by certain topics may want to avoid such threads. Members are expected to keep the discussions friendly and polite and to avoid personal attacks on other members. The moderators reserve the right to shut down a thread without warning if they believe it necessary.
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LCW
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Post by LCW » Sat December 6th, 2008, 7:58 pm

[quote=""Emily""]What I have a problem with is people taking Christian holidays and making them secular. Christmas and Easter. If people want to celebrate "Christmas" in a non-Christian way, they don't have to do it on December 25th. [/quote]

But there are so many aspects of Christmas that are not Christian but derived from the Pagan religions that dominated before Christianity was forcefully spread through Europe. Dec. 25th is not even Jesus's real birthday. Besides, there's nothing in the Bible that says to decorate a pine tree, bake cookies, have a big celebration, give gifts, burn a yule log etc. Nevermind the whole Santa Claus thing. The Christmas holiday and tradition is just as much secular as it is religious as has been since it was first celebrated. I may not be Christian but Christmas is part of my culture and I have just as much right to celebrate it as anyone else!
Books to the ceiling,
Books to the sky,
My pile of books is a mile high.
How I love them! How I need them!
I'll have a long beard by the time I read them. --Arnold Lobel

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Telynor
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Post by Telynor » Sat December 6th, 2008, 8:36 pm

It's an interesting commentary to say the least. I was raised somewhat Christian, and had a pretty traumatic time of it -- my family was severely dysfunctional -- and wandered through atheism, paganism and finally turned towards Judaism which out of all of them, felt the best for me.

I have my own personal objections towards christmas, but that has mostly to do with the adforementioned family issues, and my career working in advertising -- the holiday frenzy would start in september or august, and would keep pounding away at it until dec 26th.

Personally, the holiday that I enjoy the most is Passover.

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Emily
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Post by Emily » Sat December 6th, 2008, 10:36 pm

[quote=""LCW""]I may not be Christian but Christmas is part of my culture and I have just as much right to celebrate it as anyone else![/quote]

You're right, you have the right to do whatever you want... it just doesn't make sense to me to celebrate other religions' holidays. Although a lot of the traditions of Christmas that even Christians use don't make sense to me either. Luckily for me, what other people do is none of my business :p

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Post by Ash » Sat December 6th, 2008, 11:14 pm

[quote=""SonjaMarie""]Ash: sorry you dislike the title, I was posting it late last night and I had no idea what to call it so hence what got put.

SM[/quote]

Oh, its ok Sonja - no offense to you. Just took me aback when I saw it.

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Christina
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Post by Christina » Sat December 6th, 2008, 11:15 pm

People need to just leave other people alone and worry about living their own lives instead of "fixing" other people's.

That's the heart of it, isn't it?

True spirituality - and that includes atheism since many atheists are humanists and, by 'spirituality' I mean the essence of a person, beliefs and all - recognises and respects the individual. Truly spiritual people of any faith or none, don't feel a need to attack another faith, or to force their own down other people's throats. It always seems that those who need to convert others, cannot be sure in themselves. If they claim to have faith in God, yet need to convert others and 'win their souls' for Him, they obviously see themselves as more powerful than the God they claim to be representing, otherwise they would see that He (or She :-) ) was equally capable of working through others. That is more about ego than about God.

The same is surely true of those who are 'mad' at God and need to decry other people's faith. If someone believes there is no God, why should they need to rant at those who believe there is? Some people believe in aliens - do those who disbelieve that feel a need to run around saying, "No! No! No! It's not true?" No they don't. They don't think about it. The need to wreck someone else's belief is also about ego.

What I believe is personal. What you believe is personal. Surely, it is between us and our God ('whatever we conceive God to be'). It is very beautiful to be able to share a faith with like-minded people. It is very ugly to feel a need to convert others, or to destroy others' beliefs. If someone celebrates Hanukkah, I honour them and am happy to be invited to celebrate with them. If someone celebrates Divali, or Eid (sp??) or anything else that raises us to our true nature, the same is true. England is a Christian country - and for centuries before that, was a Nature/Pagan-worshipping country. I am happy to honour them all. Truly spiritual people, as far as I can see, have no need to defend or to attack. They simply live their faith (and after years of studying theology I realised how many ridiculous wars have been fought, how many 'heretics' burned at the stake, how many 'witches' put to death, how many people have seized power in the name of religion.) And if Christmas, apart from the deeper sense of the Divinity within us all, is about the birth of a Man/son of God whose message was of freedom and the dignity of the individual, it has nothing to do with 'the state', nothing to do with judgement or anything else that takes power away from the right of every person to live according to their own 'lights', as long as they neither seek to harm or control any other part of creation. And I love Christmas :-)

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Post by Ash » Sat December 6th, 2008, 11:21 pm

[quote=""LCW""]As I think if someone wishes you a Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah or whatever, you should take it in the spirit it was given and be grateful, regardless of whether or not you personally celebrate that holiday.[/quote]

I totally agree, and don't see why anyone should make a big deal what the cashier says, on either side of the fence
There is though particular disrespect and vehemence by the religious community against those who are agnostic or athiest. When that same vehemence is turned back at religion everyone is all up in arms. Religious people don't have a monopoly on what is good, just, or moral, and they don't have any more right to respecting their POV's than those who are not religious or don't believe in God at all. Respect is a two way street!
I couldn't agree more.
someone who is Jewish may be offended by the overwhelming "Christmasy" atmosphere this time of year, just think that there are those who feel the same way but don't subscribe to any religion at all and their views and feelings deserve respect too!
Its not that they are offended. Its that they have Christmas pushed down their throats for 6 weeks or more, and pushed down the throats of their children, and they are made to feel that they are somehow lesser for their beliefs, or they are UnAmerican (I have been told before to 'go back to Israel' Um, I was born here...). I am well aware of how atheists feel, as well as people from other religions. I think people would not get so offended if not celebrating it wasn't seen as somehow criminal (and trust me, if you've never been in that boat, it happens more often then you might think).
Last edited by Ash on Sat December 6th, 2008, 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ash
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Post by Ash » Sat December 6th, 2008, 11:25 pm

[quote=""donroc""]IPerhaps we need a new term for those who are anti-religion. If they are specifically anti-Christian, then the word is bigot..[/quote]


And if they are specifically anti non Christians, they are what? As said above, it works both ways.
Truly spiritual people, as far as I can see, have no need to defend or to attack. They simply live their faith (and after years of studying theology I realised how many ridiculous wars have been fought, how many 'heretics' burned at the stake, how many 'witches' put to death, how many people have seized power in the name of religion.) And if Christmas, apart from the deeper sense of the Divinity within us all, is about the birth of a Man/son of God whose message was of freedom and the dignity of the individual, it has nothing to do with 'the state', nothing to do with judgement or anything else that takes power away from the right of every person to live according to their own 'lights', as long as they neither seek to harm or control any other part of creation. And I love Christmas :-)
word

As for other people celebrating your religious holidays - I dunno, I have many friends who regularly atten Passover seder or Purim Megellah reading celebrations. I don't see what the big deal is. We are not 'stealing' your religious holiday or making it less yours. We are just enjoying the parts of the holiday that bring beauty peace and joy to our lives. And isn't that what the holiday is about, in many ways? Besides many of the cultural aspects of Christmas (esp American style) were 'stolen' from other traditions. So nu?

I may not be Christian but Christmas is part of my culture and I have just as much right to celebrate it as anyone else!


Oops, missed this. You said it all much more systincly than I did!
Last edited by Ash on Sun December 7th, 2008, 6:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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LCW
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Post by LCW » Sun December 7th, 2008, 6:17 pm

[quote=""Ash""]As for other people celebrating your religious holidays - I dunno, I have many friends who regularly atten Passover seder or Purim Megellah reading celebrations. I don't see what the big deal is. We are not 'stealing' your religious holiday or making it less yours. We are just enjoying the parts of the holiday that bring beauty peace and joy to our lives. And isn't that what the holiday is about, in many ways? Besides many of the cultural aspects of Christmas (esp American style) were 'stolen' from other traditions. So nu?[/quote]


Agreed!! Nicely put! :)
Books to the ceiling,
Books to the sky,
My pile of books is a mile high.
How I love them! How I need them!
I'll have a long beard by the time I read them. --Arnold Lobel

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Rowan
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Post by Rowan » Mon December 8th, 2008, 9:54 pm

My parents blame Kwanzaa for us not being "allowed" to say anything but Happy Holidays.

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LCW
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Post by LCW » Mon December 8th, 2008, 10:45 pm

I don't think it's fair to lay the blame entirely on Kwanzaa for that! But, IMO, Kwanzaa is not even a real holiday. It's only 40 years old and was invented as a black alternative to the "white" Christmas. The man who invented it is known to have negative views of the larger more established religions, particularly Christianity and Judaisim. And while I understand the racial tensions and social unrest in the '60's that helped create this holiday, IMO, nothing good can come from something, even a holiday, that is so heavily based on race to the point of excluding other races or skin colors. We need things that are unifying and positive for our society as a whole not divisive and exclusionary! JMO!
Books to the ceiling,
Books to the sky,
My pile of books is a mile high.
How I love them! How I need them!
I'll have a long beard by the time I read them. --Arnold Lobel

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