Welcome to the Historical Fiction Online forums: a friendly place to discuss, review and discover historical fiction.
If this is your first visit, please be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You will have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing posts, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Pet Hate in hf

Trying to remember a title or an author? Want to know who or what a particular novel is about? Want a recommendation for books about a particular person or period? Post here!
Post Reply
MaggieSt
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: July 2018
Currently reading: The Ill-Made Kinght
Interest in HF: Family history sparked my first interest but the further back I went the more I became interested in Medieval England.
Favourite HF book: Cornwell's series last kingdom series
Preferred HF: Anglo Saxon England
Location: Australia

Pet Hate in hf

Post by MaggieSt » Mon July 23rd, 2018, 6:43 am

Hi everyone, thought I might put a question out there. What are some of the things you hate to read in historical fiction? Is it the poor research, dialogue, phrases etc. Would love to know your thoughts.

User avatar
Mythica
Bibliophile
Posts: 1095
Joined: November 2010
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Mythica » Wed July 25th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Dialogue is important but it doesn't need to sound super authentically historical, it just needs to be void of any noticeably modern words or phrases. In fact, some authors try to hard to make it sound historical and it actually just comes off as forced and hokey.

For me, there are certain specific tropes that bother me. I get so sick of the plucky daughter who objects to an arranged married. I don't necessarily expect her to go happily, but she can be upset, scared, etc about it without "objecting" or refusing to go through with it. I don't see that as "strong", just unrealistic. A strong woman in history would accept the fate she has no control over and make the best of it, no matter how distasteful the match is to her.

Also, as a genealogist I get soooo tired of the myth about immigrants to the US having their names forcibly changed at Ellis Island by ignorant immigration officers. It's not true, for so many reasons. I won't go into it but if you just google it, there dozens of articles about how it's a myth.

User avatar
MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3566
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Wed July 25th, 2018, 3:41 pm

My pet hate is the issue of sex. Modern authors very frequently have people copulating with no thought of the biological consequences. Sex = babies. Back then, EVERYBODY knew this, although apparently it doesn't show up on many a modern writer's brainscan. When there often isn't enough to eat for 6-8 months in a given decade, babies and their mothers without solid support go hungry, and then they die of whatever little thing comes along because their immune systems are compromised by poor nutrition. (So no, they don't 'starve' to death as in a city under siege, but they die just the same.) This was a problem for widows and women who were abandoned, but for someone who bore an illegitimate child--well, they might just as well sign its death warrant.
Sex meant that. To everyone.
So although hormones raged as much as in the present day, there was a LOT more restraint practiced.
Also, from parish and grave records, it looks like across Europe from 1300-1800, the death rate from pregnancy and related causes was 18-20%. In other words, once a female was of bearing age, sex was more likely to kill her than anything else.
Which is why a convent wasn't such a terrible choice for a young woman.

Just sayin'.

SGM
Compulsive Reader
Posts: 700
Joined: March 2010

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by SGM » Thu July 26th, 2018, 2:00 pm

Regency gentlemen sitting in pubs and drinking pints.
Currently reading - Emergence of a Nation State by Alan Smith

User avatar
Mythica
Bibliophile
Posts: 1095
Joined: November 2010
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Mythica » Wed August 1st, 2018, 1:10 am

MLE (Emily Cotton) wrote:My pet hate is the issue of sex. Modern authors very frequently have people copulating with no thought of the biological consequences. Sex = babies. Back then, EVERYBODY knew this, although apparently it doesn't show up on many a modern writer's brainscan. When there often isn't enough to eat for 6-8 months in a given decade, babies and their mothers without solid support go hungry, and then they die of whatever little thing comes along because their immune systems are compromised by poor nutrition. (So no, they don't 'starve' to death as in a city under siege, but they die just the same.) This was a problem for widows and women who were abandoned, but for someone who bore an illegitimate child--well, they might just as well sign its death warrant.
Sex meant that. To everyone.
So although hormones raged as much as in the present day, there was a LOT more restraint practiced.
Also, from parish and grave records, it looks like across Europe from 1300-1800, the death rate from pregnancy and related causes was 18-20%. In other words, once a female was of bearing age, sex was more likely to kill her than anything else.
Which is why a convent wasn't such a terrible choice for a young woman.

Just sayin'.
All so very, very true, but of course it did still happen. I have an Italian ancestor born about 1771 who was a foundling, probably born out of wedlock. His records say "parents unknown" and his surname was "la Casasanta" meaning "the holy house" because he was left at the church. Another ancestor born earlier (probably around 1720) also has the la Casasanta surname and probably a foundling - I don't have any records saying her parents are unknown, but given the surname, it's a likely assumption. Then I have another Italian ancestor who had at least four children out of wedlock (this was later, in the mid 1800s), never named the father and the children took her surname, so I'm thinking she was either a prostitute or someone's mistress. Finally, yet another Italian ancestor had a child out of wedlock in the late 1800s. The father was absent because he was in the Carabiniere - when he returned, they left town and lived together yet didn't get married until she was pregnant with the second child! Sometimes I wish I could write well enough to write some of these stories.

But I agree that the attitude towards it is often wrongly portrayed in fiction. It's one thing for it to happen, it's another thing for it to happen without any concern at any point for the consequences.

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Margaret » Fri November 16th, 2018, 2:46 am

I'm with Mythica on the
plucky daughter who objects to an arranged marriage.
When a novel opens with that, I know the whole thing is going to be one cliché after another. It's much more interesting, I think, to explore what happens in an arranged marriage, anything from the couple growing to love each other to either the wife or the husband deciding they've had enough of a very bad situation and finding a way out (often out of the frying pan into the fire).

And maybe it's my age showing, but I'm tired of novels about teenagers (mostly - there are some wonderful exceptions).
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
Mythica
Bibliophile
Posts: 1095
Joined: November 2010
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Mythica » Thu December 6th, 2018, 2:18 am

Here's one that annoys me about titles: the amount of historical novels that are titled "The such-and-such's daughter/wife". Okay, I know that in history, women are generally degraded to being defined by their nearest male relation, usually father or husband. But do we really need to perpetuate that today? Even if I didn't have a problem with the principle, the sheer number of times I see it is just annoying. Call it something more creative for crying out loud.

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Margaret » Thu December 6th, 2018, 5:05 am

the amount of historical novels that are titled "The such-and-such's daughter/wife"
Yes, there are a lot of these! I do understand that a novel about the wife or daughter of a very famous man may attract more readers if titled "Attila's Wife" rather than "Kreka." But there's a lot of HF with titles like "The Admiral's Daughter" etc. Seems like in the course of a novel like that, the daughter is likely to do something exciting in her own right that could be referenced in the title. "Crossing Oceans" or something like that.
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
Madeleine
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 5860
Joined: August 2008
Currently reading: "Mania" by L J Ross
Preferred HF: Plantagenets, Victorian, crime, dual time-frame
Location: Essex/London

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Madeleine » Fri December 7th, 2018, 9:58 am

I'm fed up with "girl! and "wife" being used in titles in general fiction, it's everywhere now. Enough! It's beginning to smack of laziness as well.
Currently reading "Mania" by L J Ross

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Pet Hate in hf

Post by Margaret » Tue December 11th, 2018, 5:12 am

"girl! and "wife" being used in titles
I wonder how much of this is generated by agents, editors and publishers rather than the author. When I was trying to sell one of my own manuscripts, my agent suggested a title change. In my case, changing the title was a very good idea. But I can imagine there may be times when an agent or publisher insists on a title change driven by the belief that a book will sell better with a different title, even though the title may be more cliched than one the author would have preferred.
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

Post Reply

Return to “Ask Your Fellow Readers”