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Vainglory by Geraldine McCaughrean

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Ash
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Post by Ash » Sat September 12th, 2009, 2:34 pm

Misfit, my apologies - school has taken up lots of my time, I needed to read a few books for book discussions last week, and this is the first weekend I feel I can really give attention to the book. So hang in there - I am not abandoning you! Will have more later :)

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Sat September 12th, 2009, 2:41 pm

:o :o :o Ash, true confession time - you were so quiet and book #2 in Belle Wintercombe series was a-calling me yesterday and I was unable to resist. I'll have it finished later today and back on track. I'm around page 160 on Vainglory so have at it.
At home with a good book and the cat...
...is the only place I want to be

Ash
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Post by Ash » Sat September 12th, 2009, 5:29 pm

whew Thanks! BTW that massacre of the whores at the beginning - did that really happen?

annis
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Post by annis » Sat September 12th, 2009, 7:23 pm

Posted by Ash
BTW that massacre of the whores at the beginning - did that really happen?
I wondered that as well when I first read "Vainglory". From memory McCaughrean doesn't provide a bibliography, so I'm not sure of her sources. Certainly Joan of Arc had the camp-followers driven out of Blois in 1429- she hated them and was once reputed to have struck a camp-follower herself with the flat of her sword. I couldn't find any reference to these women being killed, but I guess you could see how it might happen, that the men battle-ready and all stirred up with new-found piety might get carried away with over-zealousness. (Not to mention the blokes who take the opportunity to get off having to pay for services rendered!) There's the irony in "Vainglory" of the camp-followers trying to get access to Joan and appeal to her for help, thinking that as a woman she would have sympathy for their plight.

Here's a piece from "Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World:Joan of Arc's Victory over the English at Orleans" about Joan's arrival at Blois:

But, while interfering little with the military discipline of the troops, in all matters of moral discipline she was inflexibly strict. All the abandoned followers of the camp were driven away. She compelled both generals and soldiers to attend regularly at confessional. Her chaplain and other priests marched with the army under her orders ; and at every halt, an altar was set up and the sacrament administered. No oath or foul language passed without punishment or censure. Even the roughest and most hardened veterans obeyed her. They put off for a time the bestial coarseness which had grown on them during a life of bloodshed and rapine ; they felt that they must go forth in a new spirit to a new career, and acknowledged the beauty of the holiness in which the heaven-sent Maid was leading them to certain victory.
Last edited by annis on Sat September 12th, 2009, 8:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Sat September 12th, 2009, 11:53 pm

Thank Annis, I knew you'd have the answer. I recall seeing some brief mention when reading up on this period on Wik last week.

Ash, I'll be back into the book in about an hour so and will hit it hard tomorrow.
At home with a good book and the cat...
...is the only place I want to be

Ash
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Post by Ash » Sun September 13th, 2009, 2:53 am

Annis, thanks; very interesting.

Im not only enjoying the writing in this book, but little bits of humor. When he shows Ellen his tattered banner and asks her what she thinks the animal is, she says something like a mangy wolf. This is a relationship that if it continues, could be a very interesting one.

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MLE (Emily Cotton)
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Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Tue September 15th, 2009, 9:35 pm

This arrived in the mail today, and I just started the first bits. Although unless things get worse, it doesn't seem that the whores were massacred -- only driven out en masse, and some of them got hurt in the process when the men got rough. I didn't find any outright mention of any being killed, although driven into the river and losing body parts was rather gruesome.

Interesting so far, although not riveting. I can't decide who I'm rooting for.

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Misfit
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Page 330 or so

Post by Misfit » Wed September 16th, 2009, 1:49 am

Oh, that Guy du Puys is a bastard, and Verite is bordering on TSTL.
At home with a good book and the cat...
...is the only place I want to be

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MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3566
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Wed September 16th, 2009, 5:25 am

Okay, we've just gotten them married off. Young Victoire is indeed a very nice fellow, perhaps a little too forward-thinking to be believed-- he was discussing a variant of rotating crops, and that won't be discovered until Jethro Tull in the 17th century.

(I also caught a reference to magma, but hey. Dorothy Dunnet threw in Krishna and the Milkmaids -- a Hindu legend in 16th-century Scotland.) It's almost impossible for a modern writer to filter all the anachronisms out.

I notice that the older HF tends to spend several chapters setting the scene and introducing the mileu. I used to like this, or at least to expect it. Now I must have a shorter attention span, as it makes me impatient. But all in all, its a decent, not brilliant, read. So far.

The devil-worshipping relative, while a nice ironic touch, is making me wonder why she is giving him so much word-space. I presume he will show up later in the plot.

This book, like much pre-1980 HF, is written in the omniscient POV, with the writer hopping from head to head within a scene as it suits her purpose. I don't mind it, but it does tend to make me feel more distanced from the characters.

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Misfit
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Page 500 or so

Post by Misfit » Sat September 19th, 2009, 2:29 pm

Just went through the reprisals against Huegenot conspirators in the Conde rebellion. Horrifying how the mass executions were described.
At home with a good book and the cat...
...is the only place I want to be

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