Welcome to the Historical Fiction Online forums: a friendly place to discuss, review and discover historical fiction.
If this is your first visit, please be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You will have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing posts, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Questions re writing in this genre in particular

Got a question/comment about the creative process of writing? Post it here!
User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Post by Margaret » Mon February 22nd, 2010, 8:11 pm

It seems to me that the dreaded information dump usually occurs for one of two main reasons: (1) the author feels the background in the information dump is essential to understanding the characters' attitudes and behaviors; (2) the author has found some information that gives real insight into the time and place and can't resist sharing it with readers.

The key to avoiding the first is to provide information only at the place where it actually becomes essential to understanding the characters' attitudes and behaviors, and to provide only the amount of information that is actually essential. Writers of contemporary fiction are tempted to information-dump, too, but the information is usually fictional background on one of the characters. Learning to differentiate between what the author needs to know and what the reader needs to know is the important factor here. The author always needs to know a lot more than the reader does.

The key to avoiding the second is to know the essence of your story and to have the confidence that you will write other novels and don't have to put everything you know into the one you're working on right now. If something is tangential or irrelevant to your story, it needs to come out, no matter how interesting it might be in another context.

It's much, much easier to eliminate information dump problems after you have a complete first draft. So much of the creative process is unconscious, an author often doesn't really understand the essence of his/her story until after a first draft is complete. While writing a first draft, it's useful to just let the story flow out as it comes to you rather than bringing the writing process to a halt while you analyze what's working and what isn't. Too much analysis while writing can slow or stop you in your tracks, and it's always easier to see what's working and what's not working when you read a draft over after setting it aside for awhile.

There are some resources for writers on the Writing Tips page at HistoricalNovels.info.
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
Matt Phillips
Reader
Posts: 100
Joined: August 2009

Post by Matt Phillips » Mon February 22nd, 2010, 9:37 pm

You mentioned the Persia Woolsey book - I'd also recommend the recently published The Art and Craft of Historical Fiction by James Alexander Thom. He has a lot of practical advice about the importance of rich sensory detail to evoke your setting for the reader. He also has some good insights about complementing traditional primary and secondary source research with some unusual sources, such as historical re-enactors and hands-on experience with elements of daily life in your era. Other than a detour or two, such as a whole chapter on genealogical research, his style is also highly entertaining. I would echo what this review says: http://www.historicalnovels.info/Art-an ... ction.html

Also it occurs to me that the two issues you mentioned - POV and avoiding the info dump - can be seen as linked. If you use a first-person or 3rd-person limited point of view, the POV character for a given scene is probably not going to have access to all of the pertinent historical information surrounding the situation he or she is dealing with. Likewise, from that character's POV, some basic information about the time and place such as styles of dress and food, are so mundane as not to deserve special mention. But if you work it in here and there, in a way that seems natural for the thoughts and dialogue of the POV character, you can provide the reader the info as needed, as the POV character would perceive it. So a limited POV can help you avoid info dumps.

Thom has a good way of explaining this - he says the historian's job is to explain history to present-day readers, bringing the past forward to the perspective of the present. The historical novelist's job, by contrast, is not to bring the past to the present but to bring present-day readers into the past and experience it in their imaginations.

sally brice
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: February 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re point of view and info dumping questions

Post by sally brice » Tue February 23rd, 2010, 7:17 pm

Thank you all so much. What a resource this site is! I found all your comments valuable, but there were a few that particularly touched a chord with me. One was the idea of reading about events, etc. in a publication. In the Elizabethan era such materials were limited; however, the Fuggers were starting their international news service. Does anyone out there know how extensive that service was then? I believe it was used for merchants, bankers to know political events and how they affected commerce. Would Elizabethan courtiers or Elizabeth herself read these dispatches? Of course, I also like the idea of dialog explaining things.

The example from Gone With the Wind was interesting, as I used that book as a template for mine. The one thing I find lacking in GWTW is a political perspective, but I wonder if that shows a shortcoming on my part. Specifically, I would like Rhett discuss the economic factors of a slave-based economy vs. paid factory workers as a cause for the war rather than a desire to end slavery on a moral basis.

The point of view situation in my book was a feast for Mary Queen of Scots’ representative to vet Henry Darnley. Many diners had different thoughts involving disparate interests.

Regarding historical novels I should read, I would appreciate suggestions of any books written from third person rather than first.

Thank you again!

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Post by Margaret » Tue February 23rd, 2010, 8:01 pm

Specifically, I would like Rhett discuss the economic factors of a slave-based economy vs. paid factory workers as a cause for the war rather than a desire to end slavery on a moral basis.
I don't think Rhett had the perspective to consider this aspect of the war's causes. He was a great character because his cynical and seemingly amoral (in the eyes of his neighbors) outlook gave him the ability to look at the events of his time more objectively than most Southerners did, and especially Scarlett, who was always and forever completely subjective in her outlook. But he was still a Southerner, and so not intimately familiar with the Northern economy.

Have you read Frederick Law Olmsted's book about his journey through Texas? It's a treasure, and he does make some remarkable observations about the slave-based economy vs. do-it-yourself labor (though not factory labor). Texas offered something of a showcase for this contrast, because it had extensive areas devoted to cotton plantations run with slave labor, but also some communities of German immigrants which almost entirely (not quite) rejected slavery. The former looked down on the latter for being "poor", but the latter, according to Olmsted, actually lived far more comfortable lives.

I would expect that Elizabeth had advisers who kept on top of the Fuggers' news service, since that sort of information would be crucial to international diplomacy. Rather like U.S. Presidents get regular briefings from their various advisers and agency heads. That's an interesting tidbit!

The main thing to keep in mind is that, if you want to write about a particular angle on a time period, using characters to whom it was critically important rather than characters who were on the periphery will bring this angle alive for your readers. Trying to tackle every single aspect of a time period that interests you can dilute the central issue so much that readers get bored and frustrated. You can keep things interesting for your readers by focusing primarily on one major issue (or character), while letting a few others weave in and out of it just to the extent that they help to illuminate that issue (or character) and why your characters feel and act as they do.
The point of view situation in my book was a feast for Mary Queen of Scots’ representative to vet Henry Darnley. Many diners had different thoughts involving disparate interests.
Scenes that involve large numbers of characters can be extremely difficult to handle. When more than three or four characters are introduced at one time, readers have a hard time keeping tabs on which character is which. Also, it's difficult for readers to emotionally connect with any character if the narrative doesn't focus on that character for very long at a time. A scene like this can gain a sense of unity, and therefore work better for readers, if most of it revolves around a single character whose concerns the reader can identify with. It might also work if all of the diners' concerns relate to a single major issue that is of interest to the reader. But if the scene keeps switching viewpoints between the different diners, and their interests are quite different as well, it doesn't give the reader anything to care strongly about throughout the course of the scene. Also, it will not build tension, which is essential to holding a reader's interest. If you have built some tension around the proposed marriage of Mary QS to Henry Darnley, this scene could be effective if it focused especially on the characters at the feast who have vested interests in either promoting or preventing the marriage. It will be more interesting if these characters have some type of influence that they hope to use to promote or prevent the marriage, because the scene will then suggest a building conflict between those who support or oppose the marriage. While some of the diners may be thinking or talking about topics that are completely irrelevant to the marriage, going into their thoughts or conversations will tend to reduce readers' interest in the scene.
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
Gabriele Campbell
Reader
Posts: 127
Joined: August 2008
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Gabriele Campbell » Tue February 23rd, 2010, 8:15 pm

[quote=""sally brice""]
The example from Gone With the Wind was interesting, as I used that book as a template for mine. The one thing I find lacking in GWTW is a political perspective, but I wonder if that shows a shortcoming on my part. Specifically, I would like Rhett discuss the economic factors of a slave-based economy vs. paid factory workers as a cause for the war rather than a desire to end slavery on a moral basis. [/quote]

Ah, and there's probably the reason for your infodump. GWTW is about Scarlett and whether she will get Ashley or Rhett, and to some extent about the war and how people cope with it. It's NOT about economics, and a scene like you suggest would easliy come across as infodump. Readers don't want that stuff in fiction beyond what is necessary to understand the plot. Dinner scenes with lots of political discussions can become boring fast.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you said you were told your story had infodump, so I tried to find out where the roots of the problem may lie. YOU are interested in these details and you need to know them in order to understand - and to fictionally represent - the time, but readers can and want to do with a tenth of your research.

That is not to say you can't have any political discussion at all, but it must matter to the story, and it must be reduced to an amount readers will feel comfortable with. I usually cut half out of my scenes that deal with these topics, and I try to keep them lean in the first place.

A good author who deals with complex politics and manages to keep things interesting by balancing out those matters with the personal problems of the characters*, is Sharon Kay Penman. If you like Roman settings, Colleen McCullough's First Man of Rome is another good example to bring a very complex world to life.

* Characters are what the reader cares about, they are our gateway into the story. So make what you need in the way of politics matter to the characters, and I don't mean in some abstract 'women's power'- discussion (for example) sort of way, but along the lines of showing a woman we care about struggle with those problems.

Good luck.

User avatar
Miss Moppet
Bibliophile
Posts: 1726
Joined: April 2009
Location: North London
Contact:

Post by Miss Moppet » Tue February 23rd, 2010, 9:20 pm

[quote=""sally brice""]
Regarding historical novels I should read, I would appreciate suggestions of any books written from third person rather than first.

Thank you again![/quote]

You're welcome, Sally. Our own EC2 writes as Elizabeth Chadwick and her books are well worth studying for how they follow the characters through long periods of time and a turbulent political situation while giving enough info to tell the story but not so much the reader feels drowned in facts. I would especially recommend The Greatest Knight and The Scarlet Lion, as well as the one I recently finished reading, The Time of Singing. These are all written in the third person.

There's also Barbara Erskine's Child of the Phoenix, her only straight historical, from a third person POV.

Sharon Kay Penman's books are third-person (except the mysteries? I'm not sure) and I am another who highly recommends them. I'm currently reading When Christ and His Saints Slept, which does a wonderful job of explaining the C12 Anarchy, a very complicated piece of history!

A lot of my personal favourites are first-person but if I think of any more third-person books to recommend I'll post again.

User avatar
MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3566
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Wed February 24th, 2010, 5:32 am

My advice as to what books you should read is a little different. I wouldn't give you a list of books I thought were well-done. My list would consist of books that were selling well in this market, books that the readers you especially intend to attract are reading/have read.

Study them even if you would rather be boiled in oil than be associated with such dreck. As you do, ask yourself what elements of this book worked for the readers. For a novel set in Tudor times, Philippa Gregory's Other Boleyn Girl is a must-read. Why? because it is the book that is MOST LIKELY to have been read by someone who casually picks up another Tudor novel. You have to be aware of where your reader is coming from, and what their interests might be.

When readers pick up fiction, they want a good emotional ride. If they wanted history, they'd be reading a history book. Trying to cram all the history you researched in history books down an unsuspecting reader who just wants something to be diverting at the end of a long hard day at the office is bait-and-switch.

Gone With the Wind was a best-seller in the 1930s. It still sells today because of name recognition, and at bottom, it's a great story. But without that name recognition, I doubt that it would get that far in today's market, a market which wants shorter books (unless the writer is already known).

Post Reply

Return to “The Craft of Writing”