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Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

A place to debate issues or to rant about what's on your mind. In addition to discussions about historical fiction, books, the publishing industry, and history, discussions about current political, social, and religious issues and other topics are allowed, so those who are easily offended by certain topics may want to avoid such threads. Members are expected to keep the discussions friendly and polite and to avoid personal attacks on other members. The moderators reserve the right to shut down a thread without warning if they believe it necessary.
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Misfit
Bibliomaniac
Location: Seattle, WA

Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Misfit » Sat July 11th, 2015, 2:45 pm

We haven't had a good old debate in a long time. I don't know if this made the national news or not, but on Monday, at the Big Four Ice Caves in northwestern Washington, a party entered the caves despite numerous warning signs along the trail of the dangers of doing so. It's been extremely warm up here (temps over 90s for days) and...the worst happened and there was a collapse of iceand one young woman (mother of four) is dead, and two others are in the hospital (media reports that one of the men had a limb all but fully separated). And it took a day for the rescue people to make it safe enough for them to go inside and retrieve the young woman's body.

Mind you, I realize this is a great tragedy for this woman's family (especially the children), but no surprise at the backlash on social media about this, and the consequences of taking huge risks despite the numerous signs along the trail warning of the danger. I haven't been on this trail myself, but I've seen images on FB and elsewhere that display the warning signs. If you scroll through the long thread of comments on this FB thread, you'll see some good examples.

Now we FF to later in the week, and the woman's family strikes back with a hint of saber rattling and lawyering up (mere speculation at this point).

The closure comes after the family of the woman who died, Anna L. Santana of Moreno Valley, Calif., criticized officials for not doing more to keep people away from the dangerously unstable ice caves.


And right after that, the US Forest Service has to make the difficult decision to close a very popular, family friendly hiking trail.

Thoughts? Yes, I'm sad that people were hurt and a mother lost her life, but to close it down to everyone? So, if I come to a trailhead and there's a big sign saying there's Cougar activity and enter at my own risk and I end up getting attacked, I'm going to blame my injuries (or death!), on the Forest Service? The idiots at the Grand Canyon in 4" heels going outside the safety rails to the very tip of the canyon in 4" heels (I've seen it - the 4" heels, not a fall), and they lose their balance and tumble down, does that mean they have to shut the entire canyon down so stupid people don't have an opportunity to hurt themselves?
At home with a good book and the cat...
...is the only place I want to be

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MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favorite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Postby MLE (Emily Cotton) » Sat July 11th, 2015, 7:13 pm

We live in a society that is so safe, we are psychotic about any kind of risk. And yet safety is boring, so we paradoxically seek out risk. And if something tragic happens as a result, the family members want somebody to ensure that any harm will never, ever, ever ever ever happen again.

Which means that everybody else is deprived of the joy of taking the risk.

We are all going to die some day. In times past, and in other places today, half of the human race dies before their third birthday. That is not a good thing, but it is a normal thing. Maturity means that a person has to stop hiding from that truth.

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Mythica
Bibliophile
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Postby Mythica » Sun July 12th, 2015, 12:23 am

It's the nature of the sue happy society we live in now. Nothing is ever your fault, blame someone else, sue them, or threaten to unless they do something that will make you feel better about your own mistake. That's the mentality of our society, unfortunately.

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Divia
Bibliomaniac
Location: Always Cloudy, Central New York

Postby Divia » Sun July 12th, 2015, 2:27 am

Reminds me of that mother who is trying to sue or get more warning labels on fireworks after her dumb-ass, drunk son decided to launch one off his head an died.

Dude, seriously. What makes you think going into an ice cave in the summertime is a good idea. Ice and heat do not mix. It is just that simple. If you cannot figure that out, well then you will be weeded out of the gene pool. Just like drinking and fireworks do not mix.

If this sounds harsh or insensitive, I really don't care. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions.
News, views, and reviews on books and graphic novels for young adult.
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Misfit
Bibliomaniac
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Misfit » Sun July 12th, 2015, 3:29 pm

This new board is going to take some getting used to.

@ Divia, more warning labels for fireworks? For realz?
At home with a good book and the cat...

...is the only place I want to be

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Divia
Bibliomaniac
Location: Always Cloudy, Central New York

Re: Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Divia » Fri July 17th, 2015, 9:58 pm

Misfit wrote:This new board is going to take some getting used to.

@ Divia, more warning labels for fireworks? For realz?

I thought I read that but this article says stricter laws

http://www.medicaldaily.com/mom-22-year ... aws-341724
News, views, and reviews on books and graphic novels for young adult.

http://yabookmarks.blogspot.com/

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Misfit
Bibliomaniac
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Misfit » Fri July 17th, 2015, 11:33 pm

He lit a firework on top of his head? A 22 YO who should know better?
At home with a good book and the cat...

...is the only place I want to be

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Mythica
Bibliophile
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Mythica » Tue July 21st, 2015, 3:32 am

Misfit wrote:He lit a firework on top of his head? A 22 YO who should know better?


A 12 yr old should know better.

Over the recent 4th of July, I witnessed a parent holding a firework as it launched. It was one of the ones with a stick attached to it because you're supposed to stick it into the ground, not hold the stick. But he was doing the fireworks in the middle of the neighborhood street (ironically, for safety reasons, so it was away from the houses) where there was no soft ground to put it in. So he just held it. :roll: Fortunately, he wasn't hurt... but how stupid do you have to be? Not surprisingly, his children were also being irresponsible with the fireworks - stepping on lit smoke bombs and such. I really thought I might witness a Darwin Award that night.

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Misfit
Bibliomaniac
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Misfit » Tue July 21st, 2015, 12:52 pm

Mythica wrote:
Misfit wrote:He lit a firework on top of his head? A 22 YO who should know better?


A 12 yr old should know better.

Over the recent 4th of July, I witnessed a parent holding a firework as it launched. It was one of the ones with a stick attached to it because you're supposed to stick it into the ground, not hold the stick. But he was doing the fireworks in the middle of the neighborhood street (ironically, for safety reasons, so it was away from the houses) where there was no soft ground to put it in. So he just held it. :roll: Fortunately, he wasn't hurt... but how stupid do you have to be? Not surprisingly, his children were also being irresponsible with the fireworks - stepping on lit smoke bombs and such. I really thought I might witness a Darwin Award that night.


Really, it's time to make them illegal except for professional displays.
At home with a good book and the cat...

...is the only place I want to be

User avatar
Lisa
Bibliophile
Favorite HF book: Here Be Dragons by Sharon Kay Penman
Preferred HF: Any time period/location. Timeslip, usually prefer female POV. Also love Gothic melodrama.
Location: Northeast Scotland

Re: Personal responsibility in the wilderness experience

Postby Lisa » Wed July 22nd, 2015, 9:37 am

Misfit wrote:Really, it's time to make them illegal except for professional displays.


Seconded. Professional displays can be nice, although I still think they're a giant waste of money. But I hate it when idiots in the neighbourhood mess about with fireworks, don't handle them properly, and terrify all the poor animals in the vicinity as well. I'm just not a fan of fireworks at all.


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