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Anglo-French rivalry?

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Kveto from Prague
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Anglo-French rivalry?

Post by Kveto from Prague » Sat March 5th, 2011, 11:18 am

I ho
pe nobody takes these rivalries seriously anymore.

I do think we always take a modern day approach to nationalism, something that was much less prevalent in the past.

but this rivalry has more to do with football and tourism than actually history,IMO.

As Bill Bryson pointed out in one of his books the Anglo-french rivalry is a more modern one. traditionally England has had bigger rivalries with the Dutch (notice a lot of English idioms make fun of the Dutch such as "to go Dutch" eg "be cheap", or "Dutch oven") and the French have had bigger rivalries with their continental neighbors, germany, Italy, Spain, etc.

We often tend to think of the Hundred years war as English vs French which is way too simplifying as Both English and French troops fought on both sides according to who their lord owed loyalty to. It was also much more international, for instance, Jan Luxemborgsky, father to the Czech Emperor, Charles IV, died at a battle in the hundred years war, fighting for the French king.

I just think the rivalry has more to do with contemporary tourism of neighboring countries than history, in my humble opinion.

but my favourite story is about syphillus, which in England was called "the French disease". of course in France it was known as "the English disease". not sure if this story is true but its funny.

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Post by SGM » Sat March 5th, 2011, 11:55 am

Same with English letters and French letters and what we are respecctively taught about the Hundred Years War. I once shared notes on this with a French friend.

As I said before, these rivalries are supposed to be taken humourously. Most of the British population (like me) are a mixture of all these nationalities (including French). The humour is kindly-meant and as much at ourselves as at anyone else.

The original comment came from something I wrote many many years ago about developing national sovereignties in the seventeenth century and although it is far too long ago for me to be completely accurate as to source, I seem to think it was Hans Morganthau in the context of developing international relations. In the 21st century naturally these things are only about football and the Eurovision Song Contest and hence of no real importance.
Last edited by SGM on Sat March 5th, 2011, 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kveto from Prague
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Post by Kveto from Prague » Sat March 5th, 2011, 12:33 pm

Sure, i know.

actually, it reminded me of the great historical comedy, "gladiatress". if you havent seen it, its a comedic take on the roman invasion of Britain. Its hilarious because the characters are all based on contemporary stereotypes, eg. the picts act scottish, the gauls act french, the romans act italian, etc.

heres a trailer but the film is much better than the trailer looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOjsmjnPp_E

I love it when Caesar says "The ladies- they likea to fight. dis i got to see."

its not in the clip but when a prisoner escapes from the roman soldiers they all scream and shout as if their football team just lost.

good stuff.

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Post by wendy » Sat March 5th, 2011, 1:35 pm

After the tragedy of the World Trade Centers on 9/11 there was some talk that we might be at the start of the Third World War. When asked about this possibility some droll politician (can't remember who) came out with this wonderful line:
"We can't be in another war because the French haven't surrendered yet!"

I think the age-old rivalry still simmers . . . .
Wendy K. Perriman
Fire on Dark Water (Penguin, 2011)
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http://www.FireOnDarkWater.com

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Post by SGM » Sat March 5th, 2011, 1:45 pm

I remember an episode of The West Wing (of which I was a great fan) where the curator (an Englishman) of the Presidential art collection made a similar comment.

I was interested that they had decided to use it as an example of English humour because I thought in that rare instance Aaron Sorkin had got it wrong. Yes, there are those sorts of comments made here amongst certain people but it is not the French the comment is made about and I must admit I have never heard such humour about the French here -- others, yes, but not that one.
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Post by Kveto from Prague » Sat March 5th, 2011, 2:05 pm

[quote=""SGM""]I remember an episode of The West Wing (of which I was a great fan) where the curator (an Englishman) of the Presidential art collection made a similar comment.

I was interested that they had decided to use it as an example of English humour because I thought in that rare instance Aaron Sorkin had got it wrong. Yes, there are those sorts of comments made here amongst certain people but it is not the French the comment is made about and I must admit I have never heard such humour about the French here -- others, yes, but not that one.[/quote]

I know what you mean. good point. And that joke stems entirely from WWII. Up till then I don't think many would question the French in war. Napoleon, anyone? there was a famous quote, don't remember it exactly but it was something like "War is what the French do best." Don't remember who said it.

Maybe the firsthand experience of British civilians in WWII makes them less likely to joke about death and war and surrender.

I think the jokes (on both sides of the rivalry) tend to be more cultural than historical.

And British humour is much better than that.
Last edited by Kveto from Prague on Sat March 5th, 2011, 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by SGM » Sat March 5th, 2011, 3:27 pm

[quote=""Kveto from Prague""]I
Maybe the firsthand experience of British civilians in WWII makes them less likely to joke about death and war and surrender.

I think the jokes (on both sides of the rivalry) tend to be more cultural than historical.
.[/quote]

I agree about the cultural point. And there were too many shared British-French experiences for that joke to work. I think that particular joke stems from outside the UK and is of much more recent origin.
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Post by LoveHistory » Sun March 6th, 2011, 4:54 pm

The anti-French military sentiment definitely exist on this side of the pond. There was something about the two greatest French military leaders...one was exiled (Napolean) and the other was burned at the stake (Joan of Arc). And one of our late night comedians had a segment about what countries used to be called, listing France as "known as Germany before we saved their @$$."

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Post by Kveto from Prague » Tue March 8th, 2011, 4:50 pm

[quote=""LoveHistory""] listing France as "known as Germany before we saved their @$$."[/quote]

I guess the French could say the same. "The USA known as Great Britain before the French saved their @$$ in the revolutionary war" :-)

Funny how quickly people forget :-)

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Post by LoveHistory » Mon March 14th, 2011, 7:19 pm

[quote=""Kveto from Prague""]I guess the French could say the same. "The USA known as Great Britain before the French saved their @$$ in the revolutionary war" :-)

Funny how quickly people forget :-) [/quote]

Yes, it is.

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