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History? Sugar coat it or keep it real?

A place to debate issues or to rant about what's on your mind. In addition to discussions about historical fiction, books, the publishing industry, and history, discussions about current political, social, and religious issues and other topics are allowed, so those who are easily offended by certain topics may want to avoid such threads. Members are expected to keep the discussions friendly and polite and to avoid personal attacks on other members. The moderators reserve the right to shut down a thread without warning if they believe it necessary.
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MLE (Emily Cotton)
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Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
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Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
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Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Wed July 1st, 2009, 5:05 am

[quote=""Volgadon""]
Have you read Yitzhak Baer's A History of the Jews in Christian Spain?
An oldie but goody.[/quote]

Thanks for the tip, Volgadon. I haven't read that one -- confess that I'm working through the Moorish side of things, as I have reasons to learn all I can about Islam. (As in a whole Muslim clan that has informally adopted us, despite our persistent unbelief. :p ) But I'll add it to my collection. I found it available in PDF online, so that's one I can store on my computer.

annis
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Post by annis » Wed July 1st, 2009, 8:21 am

Posted by Chatterbox
f I'm remembering correctly, didn't some of the worst pre-Holocaust pogroms in Europe happen in German territories around the 12th century? or maybe the 13th?
Certainly the rhetoric which stirred up the First Crusade also stirred up anti-Semitic pogroms in parts of France and Germany. Why bother going all the way to the Holy Land when there were handy targets at home?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Crusade,_1096

An eyewitness account from the Mainz Chronicle
http://www.math.wustl.edu/~msh210/crusade/text.html
Last edited by annis on Wed July 1st, 2009, 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Wed July 1st, 2009, 12:08 pm

What I find interesting is that the church wasn't too keen on the crusaders attacking Jews.
Bad for business, bad for law and order and diverted the crusaders from the main political goal.

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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Wed July 1st, 2009, 12:17 pm

[quote=""MLE""]Thanks for the tip, Volgadon. I haven't read that one -- confess that I'm working through the Moorish side of things, as I have reasons to learn all I can about Islam. (As in a whole Muslim clan that has informally adopted us, despite our persistent unbelief. :p ) But I'll add it to my collection. I found it available in PDF online, so that's one I can store on my computer.[/quote]

I've been reading it for the past few days. I think it probably could be called the standard work on the Jews of Christian Spain. The author, a German Jew, made that period of history his specialty under the influence of his Catholic professor in university. The author conducted extensive research in the Spanish archives during the 20s and 30s, finishing the first edition in 1938. That just makes the history even more chilling.
The bit of the book I liked best is the chapter on the disputation of Tortosa.
Where did you find it online, I looked the other day and came up with a blank.

Ash
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Post by Ash » Wed July 1st, 2009, 1:18 pm


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cw gortner
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Post by cw gortner » Thu July 2nd, 2009, 11:27 pm

I just have to say, you are all amazing. This was one of the most fascinating discussions I've read and I stand in awe of the command of history here, and the erudition with which your opinions are expressed.

And publishers say hf readers don't want too much history with their fluff! :p Next time I hear that, I'm sending the link to this thread.
THE QUEEN'S VOW available on June 12, 2012!
THE TUDOR SECRET, Book I in the Elizabeth I Spymaster Chronicles
THE CONFESSIONS OF CATHERINE DE MEDICI
THE LAST QUEEN


www.cwgortner.com

Celia Hayes
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Post by Celia Hayes » Tue July 14th, 2009, 8:34 pm

Oh my - can I give artificial respiration to this dead thread? This topic has relevance to me, at this late date, for a couple of reasons - one of which is my almost complete inability to use the a certain word when referencing an African-American. I just can't, even though it would be technically authentic, given my chosen mileau of 19th century Texas ... it's just not a word I can use comfortably. So I came up with a work-around, a term which is - I think a little closer to how it was pronounced in the South ... the same implications, of course - but a little less offensive to modern reader sensibilities.

And that encapsulates the whole problem if you are writing about a place and time with very different mores and prejudices: how to put them across and be realistic, and write about historical characters who reflect very un-PC attitudes ... without alienating modern-day readers. I think I managed to skirt around a couple of acres of PC mine-field in Adelsverein. I was writing about settlers on the Texas frontier - who virulently detested Indians, especially the Comanches, who raided inccessently into Texas and committed ... well, deeds that are usually described as atrocities, for over fifty years. I just impartially described the various situations: a peace-keeping mission to the Penateka Comanche, a period of friendliness between them and the German settlers ... then the aftermath of a particularly brutal Comanche raid, the feelings of people who had to bury their loved ones and nurse the fatally injured ... and finally, what happened when two child captives were recovered at last. No editorializing, no moralizing, just flat and neutural description. It's worked pretty well - I have some kudos from reviewers for being even-handed.
Anyone else worked with this kind of situation?
Celia Hayes
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Ash
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Post by Ash » Tue July 14th, 2009, 10:42 pm

Personally I think you should be able to use the language that was appropriate to that time, in the appropriate context. But if you are uncomfortable doing that, you found a work around. Thats a good thing. I see 'kike' written in stories and don't bat an eye (except to assume the person saying it is bigoted). The language characters use tell a great deal about that person, so the author shouldn't be restricted on what words for them to say. If a reader is offended by that, then then know little about the world in which the book is written, and is unable to separate another time and place from their own.

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SarahWoodbury
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Post by SarahWoodbury » Wed July 15th, 2009, 3:38 pm

Regarding the expellation of Jews from Spain and the rest of Europe. England was the first to take that course. Edward began with a series of pograms designed to reduce their ability to secure a livelihood. He and his predecessors encouraged the Jews of England to become physicians, merchants, bankers, and traders but they were not allowed to own land. Through apprenticeship and education, which was of supreme importance to the Jewish community, many Jews accumulated a great deal of wealth, in disproportion to their routinely uneducated gentile counterparts. Of course, this engendered animosity among gentiles, who saw only the wealth, and not the effort to attain it. This did not stop the gentiles from borrowing money from the Jews, however, and Edward allowed the Jews in England to charge interest on loans. In turn, Edward would exact huge taxes from them.

This was difficult for the Jews, but as the taxes became more burdensome, it forced them to both raise the interest rates which they charged their debtors, and to call in those loans when taxed to excess. If the Jews refused to pay Edward, they were punished. In 1278, Edward arrested 600 Jewish men upon charges of coin clipping and hanged 270 of them. Edward then claimed their wealth for himself, to the tune of over 16,000 pounds. That equaled 10% of the annual income of the entire realm. The money Edward took from the Jews compensated for the huge expenses involved in defeating Prince Llywelyn of Wales (see how this is all interconnected?).

Once Edward had taken all their money, he had no more use for them, and began to pass more laws restricting their activities. They had to wear specific clothing and badges, could not own land, practice money lending, join any guild or business, or pass on their assets to their children. In 1290, Edward completed his pogrom against the Jews and expelled them from England, all 16,000 of them. England is the first country in Europe to do this, though France and Germany follow suit in short order.

Which is why Spain had so many to persecute 300 years later. And why, by 1935, millions of Jews lived in Poland, which welcomed them after the Black Death.
Last edited by SarahWoodbury on Wed July 15th, 2009, 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Volgadon » Wed July 15th, 2009, 3:48 pm

Actually, quite a few of them stayed on in England by paying substantial bribes.
Jews had been expelled from towns before and even from entire regionsm but never on such a scale. The Spanish Expulsion far surpassed the English one in scale and efficiency.

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