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The Devil's Whore

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Leo62
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Post by Leo62 » Sat December 6th, 2008, 5:47 pm

[quote=""Christina""]Oh :p :) ...I like him. I know he was bombastic and believed in the Divine Right of Kings, but he wasn't an idiot - he was intellectually far more gifted than he is given credit for, I think. And, in spite of what is generally written, the main objection that horribly nasty Oliver Cromwell :mad: had to him was religious rather than any concern for the people. continent...I also really enjoyed Gettysburg - in spite of the false beards!!)[/quote]

LOL :D I always rather liked Oliver Cromwell, but then I'm not Irish ;) I think its because I saw the movie "Cromwell" at an impressionable age, and I've always had a bit of a thing for Richard Harris :eek: And Alec Guinness will always be Charles I in my eyes!

The Devil thing - people were forever seeing devils lurking around in the 17th Century - I think they're trying to bring in a sense of the fervent religiosity of the era. But I agree it does seem odd and jarring. The whole thing feels rushed to me, as if it were originally meant to be about 10 episodes and they had to squash it down into 4.

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Post by Christina » Sun December 7th, 2008, 6:38 pm

[quote=""Leo62""] The Devil thing - people were forever seeing devils lurking around in the 17th Century .[/quote]

Huge :D !!! Must have been an excess of meade or something!! Ah ha! So Richard Harris is to blame! I'm afraid I simply cannot stand a man who banned doing anything on a Sunday except reading the Bible (totally contrary to what it actually says in the Bible!!); who banned Maypole dancing (which, happily we still do today); who banned Christmas...and basically banned anything that was fun... :eek:

I must confess, too, that part of my liking for Charles, is simply that I liked the look of the Cavaliers' flashy clothes more than the Roundheads' :D - and Queen Victoria's eldest daughter, Vicky, the brilliant, brilliant Empress Frederick of Germany, was such a huge fan of Charles I, that she quite persuaded me (not personally! I mean reading her letters) to see him from her point of view.

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Leo62
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Post by Leo62 » Sun December 7th, 2008, 11:20 pm

[quote=""Christina""]Huge :D !!! Must have been an excess of meade or something!! Ah ha! So Richard Harris is to blame! I'm afraid I simply cannot stand a man who banned doing anything on a Sunday except reading the Bible (totally contrary to what it actually says in the Bible!!); who banned Maypole dancing (which, happily we still do today); who banned Christmas...and basically banned anything that was fun... :eek:
[/quote]
Did he really do that? I thought a lot of that stuff was myth, or Restoration propaganda ;)

[quote=""Christina""]I must confess, too, that part of my liking for Charles, is simply that I liked the look of the Cavaliers' flashy clothes more than the Roundheads' :D [/quote]
LOL it always seems to come down to the clothes doesn't it? ;)

In the hairy 70's I was bored stiff by anything to do with the 17th Century cos they all looked like beardy hippies to me. Today, now that shorn looks are the thing, those flowing locks and cool hats are starting to look rather good. :cool:

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Post by Christina » Tue December 9th, 2008, 12:12 am

Well, I must confess it's a weakness! I love men with long hair (well, I don't mean aging pop stars with grey pony tails - I mean Cavalier-type locks!!) and that dashing cad appearance - so much more attractive than miserable Puritan Roundheads.

I think Cromwell was a nasty man and he I think he did ban Maypoles etc. as Pagan and I am not completely sure about that. The biggest bugbear about it all is that I feel whenever a king has been overthrown, it is nearly always by a dictator who proved to be far more of a tyrant than the so-called tyrant he was overthrowing. (Lenin the prime example of that along with the horrors of the French Revolution and The Terror). If Cromwell had been 'okay', we wouldn't have got the king back...and unlike many of our neighbours, we've kept a monarch ever since - the experience of Cromwell was so bad, we didn't want a repeat of it. (Though, with the present government, we're pretty much heading the same way...Couldn't believe my ears when I heard Gordon Brown compare himself to Heathcliffe -err????????? yeah right!! Bonkers and haunted by the past - the comparison stops there!! LOL)

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Post by Vanessa » Tue December 9th, 2008, 8:27 am

[quote=""Christina""]
Couldn't believe my ears when I heard Gordon Brown compare himself to Heathcliffe -err????????? yeah right!! Bonkers and haunted by the past - the comparison stops there!! LOL)[/quote]

:eek: :eek: :eek: Well, I suppose Heathcliffe wasn't a very nice character.... but he did know exactly what he was doing....... unlike GB!
Last edited by Vanessa on Tue December 9th, 2008, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Madeleine » Tue December 9th, 2008, 12:16 pm

I always thought Heathcliff was a bit of a psycho myself!

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Post by Vanessa » Tue December 9th, 2008, 12:30 pm

So perhaps there's some truth in it?????
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Post by Leo62 » Tue December 9th, 2008, 2:13 pm

[QUOTE=Christina;14349Gordon Brown compare himself to Heathcliffe [/QUOTE]

He...did...what? :eek:


Does that make Alastair Darling Cathy? :D

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Post by Volgadon » Tue December 9th, 2008, 4:23 pm

[quote=""Christina""]Huge :D !!! Must have been an excess of meade or something!! Ah ha! So Richard Harris is to blame! I'm afraid I simply cannot stand a man who banned doing anything on a Sunday except reading the Bible (totally contrary to what it actually says in the Bible!!); who banned Maypole dancing (which, happily we still do today); who banned Christmas...and basically banned anything that was fun... :eek:

I must confess, too, that part of my liking for Charles, is simply that I liked the look of the Cavaliers' flashy clothes more than the Roundheads' :D - and Queen Victoria's eldest daughter, Vicky, the brilliant, brilliant Empress Frederick of Germany, was such a huge fan of Charles I, that she quite persuaded me (not personally! I mean reading her letters) to see him from her point of view.[/quote]

That is a bit of a myth. Cromwell didn't ban Christmas. The Long Parliament abolished the feasts on Christmas and several other major ones. To compensate they did declare the 2nd Teusday of every month a secular holiday, much like modern bank holidays. The objection to the Christmas feast was twofold. One, it was seen as a Roman Catholic practice and two, it was wasteful, extravagant and full of drunkeness and lewd behaviour. Rather like the carnival in Rio de Janeiro, but with less decorum.
The ban wasn't very effective anyway.
He didn't ban maypoles either!!
Cromwell was not against fun, that is a myth. He was against drunkeness and rioting. Most of his actions were actually very pragmatic. The sort of thing which went on in theatres, pubs (the wilder sort) and racecourses wasn't good for the public order, but even worse than that they were often a hotbed of Royalist conspiracies. By clamping down on those places, Cromwell was dealing with a major threat. He wasn't against drinking, he was against drinking to excess, he wasn't against dancing, he was against the loose morals. He loved music and practical jokes.

Not all Parliamentarians were Puritans and not all Royalists were Cavaliers, in fact there were many Puritans among them. Not all Puritans were roundheads either. Cavalier had less to do with court fashions and more to do with your political outlooks. Fashions on both sides were pretty similar.

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Post by Perdita » Tue December 9th, 2008, 5:35 pm

Cromwell did close down the theatres and he made England a pretty joyless place to be. What's wrong with a bit of drunkeness and rioting?!!

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