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Question for Michelle?

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EC2
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Question for Michelle?

Post by EC2 » Wed October 7th, 2009, 1:05 pm

We've just had this url posted to our re-enactment list re the Ancient Egyptians growing maize long - always thought to have been brought back from the Americas to Europe by Columbus. I haven't read the full presentation, just the intro sentence from Gunnar Thompson's presentation - 2nd one down.
Is this serious stuff, or at the nutty level?
http://www.atlanticconference.org/
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Post by michellemoran » Wed October 7th, 2009, 5:05 pm

Hi EC,

Wow. I've never heard of corn in ancient Egypt. I've never seen corn depicted on any of the images I've seen in Egypt/museums/libraries either. I know that there are some papyri documents which talk about corn. A New Kingdom receipt reads:

What he was paid for painting a coffin: Weaving of a garment, worth 3 seniu, 1 sack worth ½ sack of corn, 1 mat with coverlet worth ½ seniu, 1 bronze vessel worth ½ seniu.

But in this case, corn means wheat or barley, since the original English word refers to grain. I'd be very interested to see what the presenter comes up with. I should think it is definitely out there in terms of what known about ancient Egypt. But I guess there's always room for discoveries if the images that the presenter has "discovered" can be coupled with translations proving this interpretation!
Last edited by michellemoran on Wed October 7th, 2009, 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by michellemoran » Wed October 7th, 2009, 5:18 pm

I just watched his videoand he presents a compelling story. However, he is also showing drawings that presumably he has done and not the original artwork in most cases. He would need to show the original tomb paintings to make a convincing argument, then publish in a journal (I don't know - maybe he has?). Right now, all he's done is drawn what he (someone else?) saw in a tomb and color it to look like maize. It could be maize. But why not use the actual paintings?
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Post by Chatterbox » Wed October 7th, 2009, 6:41 pm

In the archaeological excavations of ancient Egyptian sites, have there been food traces discovered? Just wondering what is possible in view of the age of the sites and the climate. I have read about archaeology sites in Europe where they've been able to determine diet from leftovers/garbage dumps, etc.

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Post by michellemoran » Wed October 7th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Great point, Chatterbox. Food remains have been discovered in tombs, and bones have been unearthed in garbage pits. But there has been no evidence - that I know of - of maize. If it had existed, you would think it would have been discovered in a midden (archaeological term for refuse heap). Peruvian digs dating to 1650 BC have unearthed all sorts of food in the middens - maize, avocado, burned Tillandsia. Why hasn't maize been found in Egyptian middens? Herodotus was very interested in Egyptian agricultural production, and doesn't make any mention of maize either.

Of course, the absence of remains from archaeological sites and contemporary accounts doesn't mean it didn't exist. But I should think it would be very hard to prove without evidence from a midden. The Egyptians portrayed nearly every aspect of their daily lives in their tombs. Maize would have been an incredibly important addition to any ancient diet - one worthy of painting over and over again, as the Egyptians did with cattle, grapes and figs. It's absence from numerous paintings does make the whole thing a bit suspect.
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Post by Chatterbox » Wed October 7th, 2009, 9:24 pm

Michelle, I knew there was a word for that -- midden -- and I knew that you would know what it was. :D

And you're right -- sometimes the absence of something is just as telling as the presence of a document or object.

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Post by EC2 » Thu October 8th, 2009, 5:36 pm

Thanks Michelle. Sorry not to reply sooner but I was away from the PC.
I asked on another list too where a friend is a food historian and history professor. Her contribution was that

How the Egyptians fit in is something I can't answer without looking at his
evidence. The big thing to remember is that the earliest date we have clear
evidence of the West or Far East or anywhere else making a little new World
colony is just that - the earliest date for clear evidence. It's not proof
that the Atlantic crossing wasn't made earlier. The onus is up to him to
prove it's corn and to establish viable routes. It's not my area and I don't
know his evidence, so I can't comment on the validity of his arguments, but
the fact that, elsewhere, he argues from the exceptional, means that even if
he does prove that an Eygyptian picture from an ancient date is corn, he
hasn't proven more than that corn reached the Old World in time for that
picture. It might have been a once-off crossing, as St Brendan's is reputed
to have been. There is a very strong likelihood that there were lots of
once-off crossings that brought things back and were not repeated in many
human lifetimes.

So I will continue to take with an open mind but a grain of salt. :)
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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