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The Winter Mantle

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pat
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The Winter Mantle

Post by pat » Tue September 16th, 2008, 11:33 am

I am loving this novel,EC! It is taking me all round my old stomping grounds! I grew up in a village next to Elstow, Bedfordshire. In fact I went to school in Elstow! Now, where in Elstow is your reference to? I wondered if it was Moot Hall?

The Huntingdon references are also great to me! I lived in St Neots till we moved here, just up the road!
A good book and a good coffee, what more can anyone want? xx

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LCW
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Post by LCW » Tue September 16th, 2008, 4:28 pm

This was the first Chadwick I ever read. Although now it's not my favorite, it's still a very good novel!
Books to the ceiling,
Books to the sky,
My pile of books is a mile high.
How I love them! How I need them!
I'll have a long beard by the time I read them. --Arnold Lobel

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Misfit
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Post by Misfit » Tue September 16th, 2008, 4:37 pm

Pat, when you get to The Falcons of Montabard the main character in that book is a small baby at the end of TWM. You'll also see a few of the characters from TWM in the very first part of Falcons. I liked Falcons, it was my first and Sabin is quite a hottie IMO :D :p :D

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pat
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Post by pat » Wed September 17th, 2008, 12:13 pm

OMG!! This is so much of a trip down memory lane! I have just read that the Abbot was buried in Peterborough!
A good book and a good coffee, what more can anyone want? xx

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Lauryn
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*spoilers - sort of *

Post by Lauryn » Mon June 8th, 2009, 6:21 am

I just finished this book, and really loved it. Now I must go and get a copy of The Falcons of Montabard, so I can follow along!

I do notice something though, that women at this particular court who were prepared to be less than chillingly dutiful, and more warm and caring, were apt to get their fingers slapped. Judith thawed towards Waltheof, and her mother was hard on her, and then Judith repeated the cycle with her own daughter. The message seemed to be that women of a certain rank were not entitled to nurturing or warm feelings, and if they had them, were to either stomp them out or live with a secret weakness.
Even the mighty oak was once just a nut that held its ground.

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Mon June 8th, 2009, 9:40 am

[quote=""Lauryn""]I just finished this book, and really loved it. Now I must go and get a copy of The Falcons of Montabard, so I can follow along!

I do notice something though, that women at this particular court who were prepared to be less than chillingly dutiful, and more warm and caring, were apt to get their fingers slapped. Judith thawed towards Waltheof, and her mother was hard on her, and then Judith repeated the cycle with her own daughter. The message seemed to be that women of a certain rank were not entitled to nurturing or warm feelings, and if they had them, were to either stomp them out or live with a secret weakness.[/quote]

Glad you enjoyed the read Lauryn. It's a bit since I researched that one but from the 'impression memories' I recall that both Judith and her mother came over in the chronicles as being 'hard' women. I'd have to go back to the references to remember.
I guess that having William the Conqueror as the pater familias, one would fear to step out of line and it would either make one harsh to one's own subordinates, or turn one into a jelly. I wonder if it's a myth about him giving his wife the thrashing of her life before their marriage when she refused to marry him. I seem to recall quite a few older historical novels made a meal out of that scene! Again, faulty memory means I can't remember the wherefore and why!
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Post by annis » Mon June 8th, 2009, 10:15 pm

The beating of Matilda by William was apparently mentioned in several contemporary chronicles:
"Although the Norman, French, and Flemish chroniclers differ as to the place where William the Conqueror perpetrated this assault on his cousin, and relate the manner of it with some few variations, they all agree as to the fact that he felled her to the ground by the violence of his blows. This incident is quoted by Michelet, in his History of France, and authenticated by the author of L'Art de Verifier les Dates, from a curious contemporary MS. Vatout also records the circumstance in his History of the Chateau d'Eu; and refers the antiquary for further particulars to an ancient MS. chronicle in the Ecclesiastical library at St. Germains-au-Pres, Paris."

According to Baudoin d'Avesnes, in the midst of the rejoicings at the nuptial feast of William and Matilda, her father, the earl of Flanders, asked his daughter, laughingly, how it happened that she had so easily been brought to consent at last to a marriage, which she had so scornfully refused in the first instance. "Because," replied Matilda, pleasantly, "I did not know the duke so well then as I do now; for," continued she, "he must be a man of great courage and high daring who could venture to come and beat me in my own father's palace."

As well as rejecting Wiliam as being of inferior social status, Matilda was supposed to have made mock of his illegitimacy, a subject about which he was very touchy.

*Edit -
Posted by Lauryn
The message seemed to be that women of a certain rank were not entitled to nurturing or warm feelings
It occurs to me that maybe in Norman society display of emotion was considered unseemly? Perhaps in fact the Normans are responsible for that trait considered archetypically English - the stiff upper lip :)
Last edited by annis on Mon June 8th, 2009, 11:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Lauryn
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Post by Lauryn » Tue June 9th, 2009, 3:56 am

Actually, I had cause to wonder something a little different last night. I'm reading an NF title, Millennium, by Tom Holland, who is romping his way across the Byzantine Empire and Europe in the decades on either side of Anno Domini 1000, and he made a point that I had never really thought about with regards to the Normans, vs all the other groups of Franks that became France.

The King of France, shaky on his throne and dealing with pirates sailing up his river and robbing him blind, paid one of them off with the wasteland they had helped to create - on the condition that he convert to Christianity and turn around and hold the line against other excursions from his countrymen. Okay, this is Rollo, and we know this story. Rollo and his fellow settlers, who became the Normans PDQ after the land grant, suddenly were trying to pass themselves off as being as respectable, well-behaved and pious as any of their neighbours.

Want to bet that put HUGE pressure on everybody? Your "duty" is to NEVER give the Angevins or Capetians (or Burgundians or or or) any possible excuse to look down their noses at any Norman, ever. William the Conqueror was only 200 years or so after Rollo, but I'll just bet that's part of why the women of his court were so stern. Possibly not the whole story, but probably a factor, IMHO. :D
Even the mighty oak was once just a nut that held its ground.

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Post by Loveday » Sat January 23rd, 2010, 6:53 pm

I'm in the middle of The Winter Mantle, my first EC, and I'm loving it! I have just one, rather trivial, question: How do you pronounce 'Waltheof?' :confused: I know, it's silly, but every now and then I come to a dead stop while reading and try out different ways in my head, and none of them sound right! :o
"When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left...er... I buy more books." (Apologies to Erasmus ;) )

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Sat January 23rd, 2010, 7:03 pm

[quote=""Loveday""]I'm in the middle of The Winter Mantle, my first EC, and I'm loving it! I have just one, rather trivial, question: How do you pronounce 'Waltheof?' :confused: I know, it's silly, but every now and then I come to a dead stop while reading and try out different ways in my head, and none of them sound right! :o [/quote]

Umm... I'm not precisely sure myself given that it's a name of a thousand years old and earlier, but my best guess (and I stand to be corrected by any Anglo Saxon experts on the forum) is 'Wol - thee (with the 'th' pronounced as in 'thick' rather than as in 'these' and 'off' So Wol-thee-off. That's how I say it.

All best
EC :-)
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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