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The Time of Singing

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Wed January 13th, 2010, 1:08 am

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]This is what I'm wondering about. The lives of royal mistresses seem to be quite shadowy in this period - Ida being a perfect example with her story only recently having come to light. Powerful official mistresses who gather huge amounts of cash and land don't seem to appear until the early modern period - Alice Perrers being the earliest example. Ida gets presents and trinkets from Henry and from others who want her goodwill, but that is offset by the fact that she is Henry's ward, so presumably he's still enjoying revenues from her inheritance.

Do you think it's true to say that the pushy-siren type didn't come along till later centuries? Or is that too much of a generalisation?[/quote]

I think the cash and land thing does seem to have grown up later on and that it's not too much of a generalisation, although perhaps it's down to documentation too. Henry had Rosamund Clifford and we know nothing about her (conventionally). How much influence did she have? What was she really like? We know some of the names of Henry I's mistresses and he seems to have kept a harem at Woodstock, but no one stands out as having made a mint from it. It has been suggested that Isabelle de Beaumont bought her family into favour with her body, but she didnt do much good for herself. William the Conqueror's mum seems to have had quite a bit of clout, but again, still nothing like the glamour pusses of later monarchs.
There are perhaps some lesser known sirens I am missing out but on my thinking here at 1 in the morning, I am in complete agreement!
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Post by Miss Moppet » Wed January 13th, 2010, 5:06 pm

[quote=""EC2""]I think the cash and land thing does seem to have grown up later on and that it's not too much of a generalisation, although perhaps it's down to documentation too. [/quote]

Yes, it would really only show up through charters and land grants and so on so only archival research would turn up the evidence.

Interesting about Isabelle de Beaumont, I hadn't really registered her before. Conversely, if the barons were complaining about their daughters being despoiled, that might imply that the families weren't doing particularly well out of it.

Is much known about Ida's life before she came to court? I'm still reading so apologies if you cover this later on.

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Post by EC2 » Wed January 13th, 2010, 5:32 pm

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]Yes, it would really only show up through charters and land grants and so on so only archival research would turn up the evidence.

Interesting about Isabelle de Beaumont, I hadn't really registered her before. Conversely, if the barons were complaining about their daughters being despoiled, that might imply that the families weren't doing particularly well out of it.

Is much known about Ida's life before she came to court? I'm still reading so apologies if you cover this later on.[/quote]

Interestingly there's a hint that one of King John's mistresses was Hawise, Countess of Aumale. Historian Sidney Painer suggests this and that her son William de Forz was actually John's bastard but brought up as another man's heir. Painter seems to think this because John gave Hawise of Aumale very favourable terms when it came to paying death duty fines owing; ditto the son. Hawise of Aumale wasn't a ward or a daughter being despoiled, but she was a widow and subject to John's whims when it came to remarriage. I think with the daughters it would depend on how often it happened. It might be a good thing for the family's influence if a daughter was taken into the King's bed, but not if he was taking them one after the other. You wouldn't have much time to garner your profit! With Isabelle de Beaumont, professor Crouch has suggested that she was part of the price the family paid for putting themselves back into favour. There'd been a spot of rebellion and one of the Beaumont twins had been imprisoned for several years. Around the time of his release, Isabelle had her affair with Henry I and bore him a child.

Ida: Absolutely nothing is known about her early years. There's not even a birth date for her (although it can be worked out to be within certain parameters). We don't know where she was brought up, if she was educated, or anything. I fleshed her out in TTOS with recourse to my alternative research, except for when I gleaned small snippets from charter and documentary evidence. And they were small snippets. As far as I know there are no charters of hers from her own lifetime, or even her name as a witness to any of Roger's, although he does mention her sometimes in the body of charters. 'Comitisse Ida uxoris mee.' She is one who has slipped through the net except for a few spangles left on the threads, and there must be dozens more like her.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Post by Miss Moppet » Wed January 13th, 2010, 9:14 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Interestingly there's a hint that one of King John's mistresses was Hawise, Countess of Aumale. Historian Sidney Painer suggests this and that her son William de Forz was actually John's bastard but brought up as another man's heir. Painter seems to think this because John gave Hawise of Aumale very favourable terms when it came to paying death duty fines owing; ditto the son. Hawise of Aumale wasn't a ward or a daughter being despoiled, but she was a widow and subject to John's whims when it came to remarriage.[/quote]

I think I remember reading that he ordered her to pay a very high fine for something then waived it when her son inherited. But I can't remember whether I read that in a scholarly book about wardship or the book about royal bastards that doesn't have any footnotes, both now back at the library!
EC2 wrote:I think with the daughters it would depend on how often it happened. It might be a good thing for the family's influence if a daughter was taken into the King's bed, but not if he was taking them one after the other. You wouldn't have much time to garner your profit!
Perhaps it might depend also on how well they married afterward and if their market value had gone up or down.

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Post by EC2 » Wed January 13th, 2010, 10:37 pm

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]I think I remember reading that he ordered her to pay a very high fine for something then waived it when her son inherited. But I can't remember whether I read that in a scholarly book about wardship or the book about royal bastards that doesn't have any footnotes, both now back at the library!
It's mentioned in Sidney Painter's The Reign of King John. I have the 1949 John Hopkins press version and it's on page 235. Painter was a university lecturer and medievalist who knew his stuff. John charged Hawise 5,000 marks as the death duty on her 3rd husband, William Marshal's best friend Baldwin de Bethune. She died less than a year later, and he waived the fee that would have been added to her son William's debts. He also waived William's other death duties and gave him a gift worth 40 marks a year out of the royal account. Painter says 'One cannot fail to suspect that such generosity on John's part could only be a reward for distinguished service in the royal bed.' Painter seems to have a bee in his bonnet about it - but I can honestly say I don't know. It's certainly a good story!
Perhaps it might depend also on how well they married afterward and if their market value had gone up or down.
[/quote]

Yes. There were probably some political gains to be had from Roger Bigod's viewpoint from his marriage to the King's mistress and benefits that had a knock on effect due to William Longespee. It carried it nicely into the next generation. William the Conqueror's mother was probably a fine marriage prize too. You don't often hear who the run of the mill mistresses married. Then again, with a few chance surviving documents and charters, no-one would ever have known the identity of the mother of William Longespee.
Last edited by EC2 on Wed January 13th, 2010, 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Miss Moppet
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Post by Miss Moppet » Sat January 16th, 2010, 9:46 am

EC2 wrote:It's mentioned in Sidney Painter's The Reign of King John. I have the 1949 John Hopkins press version and it's on page 235. Painter was a university lecturer and medievalist who knew his stuff. John charged Hawise 5,000 marks as the death duty on her 3rd husband, William Marshal's best friend Baldwin de Bethune. She died less than a year later, and he waived the fee that would have been added to her son William's debts. He also waived William's other death duties and gave him a gift worth 40 marks a year out of the royal account. Painter says 'One cannot fail to suspect that such generosity on John's part could only be a reward for distinguished service in the royal bed.' Painter seems to have a bee in his bonnet about it - but I can honestly say I don't know. It's certainly a good story!
Thanks for the reference! John wasn't one for random generosity so it does make you wonder!

Two more questions:

1. There's a wonderful description of a hair fragrance Ida makes with dried rose petals, watercress, nutmeg and powdered root of galangal. I had to Google galangal (try saying that three times) to find out what it was but now I really want to try the recipe! The descriptions of the process of making it are so detailed I wondered if you had tried it or a recipe like it and if so with what results?

2. Princess Alais, Richard's sometime fiancee, is mentioned at one point - she and Ida would have been at court at the same time. Do you think there is any truth in the rumours that she too was Henry's mistress?

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Post by EC2 » Sat January 16th, 2010, 11:03 am

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]
Two more questions:

1. There's a wonderful description of a hair fragrance Ida makes with dried rose petals, watercress, nutmeg and powdered root of galangal. I had to Google galangal (try saying that three times) to find out what it was but now I really want to try the recipe! The descriptions of the process of making it are so detailed I wondered if you had tried it or a recipe like it and if so with what results?

2. Princess Alais, Richard's sometime fiancee, is mentioned at one point - she and Ida would have been at court at the same time. Do you think there is any truth in the rumours that she too was Henry's mistress?[/quote]

1. That hair fragrance recipe is still available in The Trotula - details here and more about cosmetics http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwic ... oreal.html
I haven't tried out the recipe, but I've been intending to. I thought it would be a good extra for a Regia Anglorum show, but I haven't had a chance to get it together yet. I do want to have a go. The Trotula is absolutely fascinating. To remove redness from the face 'we put on leeches of various colours which are in reeds, but first we wash in wine the place to which they ought to adhere.' Euwwww! To get rid of freckles, you make a paste from bistort root (?), cuttlefish bones and frankincense mixed with water and rub it into the affected area, then remove with an exfoliator made with 'water of bran' or breadcrumbs....
A great book for historical cosmetic recipes is The Artifice of Beauty by Sally Pointer. As well as an overview discussion on cosmetics down the centuries from ancient Egypt to now, there is a detailed guide to recreating perfumes and cosmetics with adapted recipes. So there's Jacobean perfume, Alkanet lip paint (Egyptian and beyond), Kohl eyeliner paste (Egyptian), Galen's cold cream (2nd century AD), Rouge, 17thC washball, Victorian rose soap, Vinegar of the Four Thieves (late Middle Ages onwards. Disinfectant). Given the time to mess I'd love to have a go with these.

2. Princess Alais. At one time I'd have shaken my head emphatically and said 'No way; Henry would have had to be bonkers to do that.' But Sharon Penman (who was also in the no camp) has told me that historian Ralph Turner has argued that perhaps Henry did have it away with Alais and that the argument does have legs. I haven't read Turner's piece myself and I've not looked at Alais in any detail in my own research. If Henry did, then perhaps there was a pattern in his later life of seducing very young women over whom he had power. Not a nice thought, but very feasible if you look at it from that angle.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Post by Miss Moppet » Sat January 16th, 2010, 12:21 pm

[quote=""EC2""]1. That hair fragrance recipe is still available in The Trotula - details here and more about cosmetics http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwic ... oreal.html
I haven't tried out the recipe, but I've been intending to. I thought it would be a good extra for a Regia Anglorum show, but I haven't had a chance to get it together yet. I do want to have a go. The Trotula is absolutely fascinating. To remove redness from the face 'we put on leeches of various colours which are in reeds, but first we wash in wine the place to which they ought to adhere.' Euwwww! To get rid of freckles, you make a paste from bistort root (?), cuttlefish bones and frankincense mixed with water and rub it into the affected area, then remove with an exfoliator made with 'water of bran' or breadcrumbs....
A great book for historical cosmetic recipes is The Artifice of Beauty by Sally Pointer. As well as an overview discussion on cosmetics down the centuries from ancient Egypt to now, there is a detailed guide to recreating perfumes and cosmetics with adapted recipes. So there's Jacobean perfume, Alkanet lip paint (Egyptian and beyond), Kohl eyeliner paste (Egyptian), Galen's cold cream (2nd century AD), Rouge, 17thC washball, Victorian rose soap, Vinegar of the Four Thieves (late Middle Ages onwards. Disinfectant). Given the time to mess I'd love to have a go with these.
[/quote]

I've tried sticking an orange full of cloves, recommended in the C17 as an air freshener - it did smell nice and was very satisfying to do! I've also tried a C17 recipe for hot chocolate made with water - thought it would be thin but just the opposite, it was very rich and got steadily thicker as it cooled. Some delicious sounding food is mentioned in TTOS - is there a particular medieval recipe you've tried and would recommend?

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Post by EC2 » Sat January 16th, 2010, 12:47 pm

[quote=""Miss Moppet""]I've tried sticking an orange full of cloves, recommended in the C17 as an air freshener - it did smell nice and was very satisfying to do! I've also tried a C17 recipe for hot chocolate made with water - thought it would be thin but just the opposite, it was very rich and got steadily thicker as it cooled. Some delicious sounding food is mentioned in TTOS - is there a particular medieval recipe you've tried and would recommend?[/quote]

The hot chocolate recipe sounds interesting - where was that from? I've heard about oranges and cloves, but not tried it. Perhaps next Christmas :-)
I would love to investigage and have a go at medieval wafers - but I don't have the skills, requisite equipment or a decent recipe, but you hear of them as snack food and I'm sure they'd be delicious.
Most of the time there's a lot of adaptation and extrapolation involved due to lack of precise directions. Some things are still what we'd eat today such as a herb ommelette (sp) or onion soup, or a pasty made with cheese, onion and turnip (I guess we'd use potato today).
Apparently High medieval aristocratic cuisine in Britain was not unlike North African cuisine of today, but we've lost most of it. Sweet and Sour rabbit is very good (made with chicken for the squeamish!). I found a recipe online. http://www.godecookery.com/mtrans/mtrans01.htm
I have served similar to this one at a show and it went down very well. I also serve a beef and cumin stew that emerges tasting not unlike Chilli con Carne. Basically it's beef and onions fried up with garlic, ginger, black pepper and plenty of crushed cumin. Stock added and simmered until tender.
I also find it interesting that a particular British twist to medieval cookery is sharp fruit and herb sauces of which apple sauce and mint sauce are survivors from the pre-Conquest period.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Miss Moppet
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Post by Miss Moppet » Sat January 16th, 2010, 1:24 pm

[quote=""EC2""]The hot chocolate recipe sounds interesting - where was that from? [/quote]

This is the irritating thing. I got it on a piece of paper at Hampton Court some years ago - they were having a chocolate festival at Easter and offering sample cups of hot chocolate made to an authentic C17 recipe and copies of the recipe to try at home. Now I cannot find that piece of paper for the life of me, although I know I wouldn't have thrown it away. If I do find it or an adequate substitute I'll post about it.
EC2 wrote:I've heard about oranges and cloves, but not tried it. Perhaps next Christmas :-)
It's quite time-consuming but a fun thing to do, also you can make pretty patterns. Mme de Maintenon, secret wife of Louis XIV, recommends putting clove-studded oranges in drawers to scent linen in one of her letters. I haven't actually put an orange in the airing cupboard yet, but I might.

I have heard Ivan Day talk about recreating historic recipes and it's fascinating - his website is here. He teaches courses including one on late medieval cookery. I can't afford it but wish I could as he is a great speaker.
EC wrote:I also find it interesting that a particular British twist to medieval cookery is sharp fruit and herb sauces of which apple sauce and mint sauce are survivors from the pre-Conquest period.
Interesting! I love cooking sauces and apple sauce is one of my specialties. I put quite a bit of sugar in though - it must have tasted different before sugar was widely available. Or perhaps they used honey as a sweetener instead?

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