Welcome to the Historical Fiction Online forums: a friendly place to discuss, review and discover historical fiction.
If this is your first visit, please be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You will have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing posts, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Accuracy in Historical Novels

For discussions of historical fiction. Threads that do not relate to historical fiction should be started in the Chat forum or elsewhere on the forum, depending on the topic.
Post Reply
User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by Margaret » Fri November 16th, 2018, 5:31 pm

I'm sure we've had some lively discussions (though I can't find the thread now) on the issue of how important it is to keep details in historical fiction accurate - in other words, strictly true to the time, even though fictional. I ran across this article in which an author discusses how she handles things when she's hinged her whole plot on a relatively obscure detail she later finds out is anachronistic. I'm curious whether you approve of the way she handled this, or whether you think she should have scrapped the novel and started over.

Bartering with the Facts: How a Novelist Solves a Historical Problem
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
Mythica
Bibliophile
Posts: 1095
Joined: November 2010
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by Mythica » Sat November 17th, 2018, 4:17 pm

I think she can get away with it because 1491 isn't that far off the 1500s. I get that private confessions probably came as a result of the Reformation, so no matter how close it is, 1491 is still pre-Reformation. But I do believe that there have always been individuals throughout history who were "ahead of their times" and forward thinking. I would absolutely buy the premise of one priest just before the Reformation who had liberal ideas on how confession should be conducted. Martin Luther was such a man, and came forward with his ideas not long after 1491, why not this fictional priest too?

And frankly, I wouldn't have even known that was an anachronism. I'm not Catholic and as much historical fiction as I read, I am not an expert on religious or cultural history, especially in medieval times. Most readers aren't. I probably know more about colonial and 19th century cultural history because of my genealogy research, but I still wouldn't consider myself an expert.

I remember an author (possibly Kate Quinn?) talking about how she realized after publication that she described a table as made from a type of wood that didn't exist in that location at that time and was worried about the reaction. I'm pretty sure no one noticed it. It wasn't described in detail, it wasn't an important part of the plot, and you'd have to have some very specific expert knowledge to catch something like that. Sometimes, I think authors spend so much time researching that they forget that most readers don't spend that kind of time researching.

User avatar
MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3566
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Sat November 17th, 2018, 5:06 pm

She needs to do more research on the confession issue. I know Spain had confessionals in their cathedrals at that period-- been there, seen that. But her comment that the penitent gave his confession 'for all to hear' shows how little she has researched the Catholic doctrine. Confessions were to be kept absolutely secret, and the penalty for a priest revealing what had been told him in the confessional was damnation.
And yes, medieval people DID have pockets. They just didn't look like what we call a pocket.
The article makes me wonder about everything ELSE this writer considers 'historically accurate'.

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by Margaret » Mon November 19th, 2018, 4:54 am

This is why I think it's smart for writers to thoroughly research a period before starting to write a novel. It would be a terrible quandary to base the central premise of one's novel on something that turns out - after one has worked out the plot in detail and written most of a first draft - to be an anachronism. On the other hand, it may be simply impossible to do enough research to eliminate the possibility of anachronism, even in a detail that is central to the plot. After all, even things that historians agree on can shift over time. Rosemary Sutcliff based one of her finest novels for young people on the premise that a Roman legion was lost in what is now Scotland - something historians agreed on at the time, but now (many years after she published the novel) think did not happen.

I'm not an expert in 15th-century England, so I can't speak with authority on whether confession was private or done in view of other people in that particular time and place (customs in England may have been different from customs in Spain). Presumably, this author did come across a source that seemed authoritative that said that in England it was done in view of others. Just goes to show that even apparently authoritative sources can disagree, which makes it all the more complicated for authors trying to make everything true to the period.
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
Mythica
Bibliophile
Posts: 1095
Joined: November 2010
Preferred HF: European and American (mostly pre-20th century)
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by Mythica » Thu November 22nd, 2018, 10:48 pm

This sounds like it only applies to England and it’s Wikipedia but:

“In the Middle Ages stringent rules were laid down, in this latter respect, by the canon law in the case of confessions by women and especially nuns. In England, before the Protestant Reformation, publicity was reckoned the best safeguard. Thus Archbishop Walter Reynolds, in 1322, says in his Constitutions: "Let the priest choose for himself a common place for hearing confessions, where he may be seen generally by all in the church; and do not let him hear any one, and especially any woman, in a private place, except in great necessity."[2]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional

User avatar
MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3566
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Fri November 23rd, 2018, 10:39 pm

That sounds like wisdom--the not being alone with women part. But my objection was not to the confession being VISIBLE to all, but being AUDIBLE to all. A priest might hear a penitent in full view, which protected his reputation and that of the penitent, from any suggestion of improper behavior. But only the priest was supposed to know the content of the confession, and (in theory) his lips were forever sealed.

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by Margaret » Sun November 25th, 2018, 1:41 am

So, if confessions were seen but not heard, it's possible the author could have kept the original plot idea intact while still being true to the specific time period - unless the plot hinged on the person confessing not being recognizable to others in the church. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it was the latter, and the whole premise of the novel would be destroyed if the person making confession would be seen and recognized by everyone else in the church (even if they couldn't hear what was said). What would you do? Would you scrap a novel that was already a complete first draft? Or would you come up with a fictional solution that imagines one church adopting, before others did, a closed confessional booth of some sort?
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

User avatar
MLE (Emily Cotton)
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3566
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: started in childhood with the classics, which, IMHO are HF even if they were contemporary when written.
Favourite HF book: Prince of Foxes, by Samuel Shellabarger
Preferred HF: Currently prefer 1600 and earlier, but I'll read anything that keeps me turning the page.
Location: California Bay Area

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by MLE (Emily Cotton) » Sun November 25th, 2018, 3:31 am

Oh, I'd just write in an explanation. There are always exceptions everywhere. I'm reminded of my friend who spent 10 years teaching English in China. He said, "China is so big, and so varied, that ANYTHING you say about it is true."
Which would be even more so about the Medieval period. Let's face it, our information is so limited, you have to go with the spirit of the times, an understanding of the culture of your area. And it helps to know the climate of that year, too. Like in the winter, I bet quite a few rules were bent so that people didn't freeze. And in extreme summer heat, ten to one a lot of clothes that were 'always' worn by a lady were discarded--even if her portrait painter included every furred detail.
To me, the salient part of confession is that it was SECRET between the priest and the penitent. Anything that respected this overarching doctrine would do. In one of my novels, I have it set up between two stalls in a stable--although, as mentioned before, this was 1513 Spain, and I had already observed several confessional booths done in Isabelline-gothic architecture there.

User avatar
Margaret
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 2440
Joined: August 2008
Interest in HF: I can't answer this in 100 characters. Sorry.
Favourite HF book: Checkmate, the final novel in the Lymond series
Preferred HF: Literary novels. Late medieval and Renaissance.
Location: Catskill, New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Accuracy in Historical Novels

Post by Margaret » Mon November 26th, 2018, 3:35 am

I'm reminded of my friend who spent 10 years teaching English in China. He said, "China is so big, and so varied, that ANYTHING you say about it is true."
That gave me a chuckle! It likely does apply to medieval Europe, at least in the light-hearted and approximate spirit of his comment. We surely don't know everything we think we know about medieval Europe - since we keep learning more all the time.
Browse over 5000 historical novel listings (probably well over 5000 by now, but I haven't re-counted lately) and over 700 reviews at www.HistoricalNovels.info

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”