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The Very Worst Historical Howler

For discussions of historical fiction. Threads that do not relate to historical fiction should be started in the Chat forum or elsewhere on the forum, depending on the topic.
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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Thu August 20th, 2009, 9:18 am

[quote=""EC2""]No, Alais absolutely wouldn't. Nor would she just happen to have a sword lurking under her bed and one she could use. Nor would she have sat around on a sofa eating capsicums. Nor would folk have been drinking ale (i.e. in the south of France, surrounded by a wine lake). The mindset was thoroughly modern.[/quote]

I hate modern mindsets. A good example of just why Alais wouldn't have gone to the woods alone is the ballad Tam Lyn, though it dates to a slightly later period. The heroine goes off into the woods alone, looking for trouble and finds it in the form of Tam Lyn who forcifully beds her. I think the mindset was that if a girl goes to places like that alone she is asking for it.
Horse-racing of the impromptu variety was going on in London in the mid 12thC. There's a vivid description of it by a chronicler. Of course the book's wandered off my shelf, but from memory it's FitzStephen's description of London. There was a horse fair and beastmarket at a place called Smithfield and people would come to watch horses being raced against each other. The description is fairly detailed.
Horse racing is a very ancient pastime, though in the classical era chariots were more fashionable.

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EC2
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Post by EC2 » Thu August 20th, 2009, 9:31 am

[quote=""Volgadon""]I hate modern mindsets. A good example of just why Alais wouldn't have gone to the woods alone is the ballad Tam Lyn, though it dates to a slightly later period. The heroine goes off into the woods alone, looking for trouble and finds it in the form of Tam Lyn who forcifully beds her. I think the mindset was that if a girl goes to places like that alone she is asking for it[/quote]

Which reminds me of this - things learned from British folk ballads, together with a quiz which I have cut and pasted below. http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ar ... 06448.html

Quiz: Pop quiz!

You are a beautiful young lady named Janet. On the first of May you meet a man in a patch of broom down by the greenwoodside. He invites you to his home on the far side of the sea, and earnestly entreats you to keep his invitation secret from your parents. The ship is leaving right away, this very night!

What should you do?

A) Woo hoo, sounds like fun! You’ll go, have a great time, and return home happy, healthy, and with some great gossip for your chums.

B) You blow loudly on a police whistle and run home as if jet-propelled. You tell mom and dad what just went down, put on a Stetson, and load your forty-four caliber revolver with silver bullets.

C) You decide that it would save everyone concerned a great deal of trouble if you skipped ahead a bit and hanged yourself right now. Your Doleful Ghost informs mom of the situation.

D) Rather than go with him you disguise yourself as a man and join the Army. Next time you’re marching through the Lowlands Low you seduce a beautiful young lady. She is so amazed to discover that she isn’t pregnant that she hangs herself. Her Doleful Ghost gets confused and drives the young man you met down by the greenwoodside mad. He delivers a long speech that begins “Come all ye wild and roving lads a warning take by me….”
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

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Telynor
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Post by Telynor » Thu August 20th, 2009, 4:47 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Which reminds me of this - things learned from British folk ballads, together with a quiz which I have cut and pasted below.

You are a beautiful young lady named Janet. On the first of May you meet a man in a patch of broom down by the greenwoodside. He invites you to his home on the far side of the sea, and earnestly entreats you to keep his invitation secret from your parents. The ship is leaving right away, this very night!

What should you do?

[/quote]

I'd say, run, run like the wind! Let's face it, those ballads were creepy things indeed. The one that always gave me the shivers was 'Long Lankin'.

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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Thu August 20th, 2009, 8:42 pm

Thanks for that link, EC. That was good fun. I've been listening to them for long enough that I caught the references. I'm of the opinion that rather than being dated impossibly early, a late date for most ballads is likelier. The guy that wrote that lists brings up an excellent point, that these were cautionary tales. I think in that aspect they are very useful to HF writers in showing what people were worried about.

Telynor, I agree with you on Long Lankin. That ballad is pure evil. I prefer the ones where he doesn't have a revenge motive, because it seems like someone is trying too hard to justify his actions.

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Miss Moppet
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Post by Miss Moppet » Thu August 20th, 2009, 11:35 pm

[quote=""EC2""]Which reminds me of this - things learned from British folk ballads, together with a quiz which I have cut and pasted below. http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ar ... 06448.html
[/quote]

I guess the fear of water dates back to Druid times when watery places were supposed to be holy. It's surprising how long that kind of folk memory lasts - this is why people throw pennies into fountains apparently.

The advice for women about your drink possibly being spiked and not being able to reform a bad boy is actually quite good.

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Volgadon
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Post by Volgadon » Fri August 21st, 2009, 8:29 pm

Or, what is likelier, waterways are a convenient way to commit murder and dispose of the body. They are also good for a suicide, and if you are a sailor (and most could not swim) then you don't want to fall overboard.

I believe the song with the spiked drink is Worcester City. I really like What Eliza Carthy said, that if her boyfriend had informed her that the drinks are poisoned, she would have slapped him in the face and gone off to die by herself, without giving him the satisfaction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L17KReRo8IM that is the song, just ignore the anime.

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Kasthu
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Post by Kasthu » Sat August 22nd, 2009, 10:09 pm

I'm currently finishing up the first book in the Matthew Bartholomew series. The author has her characters, Cambridge students and Fellows, referring to townspeople as "townies," the Black Death as "The Death," and to themselves as "medieval."

Helen_Davis

Post by Helen_Davis » Sat August 22nd, 2009, 10:12 pm

[quote=""Volgadon""]I hate modern mindsets. A good example of just why Alais wouldn't have gone to the woods alone is the ballad Tam Lyn, though it dates to a slightly later period. The heroine goes off into the woods alone, looking for trouble and finds it in the form of Tam Lyn who forcifully beds her. I think the mindset was that if a girl goes to places like that alone she is asking for it.



.[/quote]

ASKING FOR IT? As if a woman wants rape! :mad:

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nona
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Post by nona » Sun August 23rd, 2009, 12:38 pm

[quote=""Misfit""]That-Tudor-Vampire-Book. There are waaaay too many reasons although the topper was the love scene wherein the hero says "Whoa.....volcano of honey".[/quote]

lol, we wil always come back to that Tudor-Vamp huh?

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Kasthu
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Post by Kasthu » Sun August 23rd, 2009, 6:15 pm

[quote=""Kasthu""]I'm currently finishing up the first book in the Matthew Bartholomew series. The author has her characters, Cambridge students and Fellows, referring to townspeople as "townies," the Black Death as "The Death," and to themselves as "medieval."[/quote]

I've now finished this book, and it gets better: hostels are arranged into cartels, another character arrives in the nick of time to save the hero, and doctors are repeatedly referred to as medics. It's frustrating, especially since the author has a PhD and you'd think that someone with that kind of degree, no matter what the subject, would be able to do her research, you know?

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