Welcome to the Historical Fiction Online forums: a friendly place to discuss, review and discover historical fiction.
If this is your first visit, please be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You will have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing posts, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Lords of the White Castle by Elizabeth Chadwick

User avatar
EC2
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3661
Joined: August 2008
Location: Nottingham UK
Contact:

Post by EC2 » Sat December 20th, 2008, 10:00 am

[quote=""Telynor""]Towards the knightly classes and nobles, he was pretty ruthless when he had to be. But it also looks that he had some genuine ties of affection -- with his children, both legitimate and natural, his half-brother William Longespee, and there were men that he respected such as Rannulf of Chester and William Marshal.
Because he couldn't break them and ultimately he needed them. He did nasty things to both these magnates before he ceased harrying them. It seems highly likely he did murder his nephew and then there was the whole de Braose incident. William Marshal said to the young Henry III that he hoped his reign would be very short if he happened to behave like a certain foul ancestor of his (meaning John).

And it seems that towards the lower classes he did have a sense of justice. Certainly a very complicated king. And at least he wasn't ordering wholesale massacre like Richard was fond of doing!

Unless you count the harrying of the Isle of Ely during the later civil war where he burned the land and everyone in it to a crisp. Wouldn't you know I've put down the reference book I was using that had a comment from a chronicler about this laying waste and the detail that John sent his mercs out day and night - so that he could watch the fires by darkness and that he would rather watch the blazes than attend to routine business. There were other occasions too, but then he's no different to many of his rellies both forward and back in time. William the Conqueror's harrying of the North for example. I think with John, it was often personal. He'd fix on something or someone and set out to destroy it. Whereas Richard's massacres were impersonal decisions of war. John's were individual ones of personality. He tore de Braose apart. He harried but couldn't break Chester and Marshal. Salisbury was an underling, dependent on him for largesse and kept on the leash, never allowed to grow bigger than his 65 knights fees for his earldom (given to him by Richard).

I
think it boils down to trust on John's part. As long as you didn't betray him,and you were aiming for the same goals as he was, he was tolerable.
I think trust was a large part of it, but John never knew who he could trust and his notions changed from day to day (witness the dodgy handshake ploys which the freemasons would have been hardput to stay with), so one minute you were his best friend and the next, depending on his state of mind, your lands and even your life were forfeit.
Once you start digging into the pasts of any of the monarchs of the medieval period, they tend to be on the ruthless and bloodthirsty side.
[/quote]

I agree there, but I think some were more intense than others. Sometimes not in terms of body count. I think with John, that prickling between the shoulder blades, both his and other people's must have been at an all time high! You never knew when the knife in the back was coming, and neither did your family.
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

User avatar
Telynor
Bibliophile
Posts: 1465
Joined: August 2008
Location: On the Banks of the Hudson

Post by Telynor » Sat December 20th, 2008, 1:16 pm

I certainly wasn't trying to write up an apologia for John -- after his hanging of the hostages, I lost whatever respect I had for him. Still, he did try, at least with the early portion of his reign, but by the end, things were getting pretty well shredded, and he turns into a rather sad figure. At times, it seems that paranoia becomes the order of the day when I am reading about medieval monarchs

User avatar
EC2
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3661
Joined: August 2008
Location: Nottingham UK
Contact:

Post by EC2 » Sat December 20th, 2008, 3:23 pm

[quote=""Telynor""]I certainly wasn't trying to write up an apologia for John -- after his hanging of the hostages, I lost whatever respect I had for him. Still, he did try, at least with the early portion of his reign, but by the end, things were getting pretty well shredded, and he turns into a rather sad figure. At times, it seems that paranoia becomes the order of the day when I am reading about medieval monarchs[/quote]

Telynor, I would be very interested to see what kind of child John was and what kind of childhood he had. I'm sure some of his behaviour can be put down to that aspect. I suppose that medieval monarchs had to be so constantly on the watch that paranoia came with the crown and sceptre!

I would also like to know how much of what the chroniclers say re John is true concerning some of their accusations - such as no woman being safe from him. Time and again you come across chroniclers and story tellers mentioning how he interfered with the wives and daughters of his barons. Fulke FitzWarin's wife for e.g, Eustace de Vesci's wife, Robert FitzWalter's daughter. His own de Warenne cousin by whom he had a bastard son, Hawise, Countess of Aumale. Sidney Painter seems to think that William de Forz, the Countess's son was also one of John's unsung bastards. etc etc etc. Some of it can be proven, some is just hearsay. I'd like to know how much was true and whether it was fear or charm that was involved. IMO he had a thing, rather like a dog, of marking other dogs' territories!
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

User avatar
Misfit
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 9581
Joined: August 2008
Location: Seattle, WA

Post by Misfit » Sat December 20th, 2008, 4:01 pm

All I can say is that he does make for a delightfully evil bad guy in fiction :p :o

User avatar
LCW
Compulsive Reader
Posts: 756
Joined: August 2008
Location: Southern California

Post by LCW » Tue December 23rd, 2008, 5:36 pm

I finished this the other day and absolutely loved it!! The scene where Maude dies was such a tearjerker. I didn't see that one coming at all! All I could think of was "Noooo" when I was reading it. I wasn't too happy about Fulke ending up with Clarice as I never really liked her but overall the entire novel was excellent. One of my favorite Chadwick's...although I say that almost everytime I finish one, lol!
Books to the ceiling,
Books to the sky,
My pile of books is a mile high.
How I love them! How I need them!
I'll have a long beard by the time I read them. --Arnold Lobel

User avatar
EC2
Bibliomaniac
Posts: 3661
Joined: August 2008
Location: Nottingham UK
Contact:

Post by EC2 » Tue December 23rd, 2008, 6:15 pm

[quote=""LCW""] I wasn't too happy about Fulke ending up with Clarice as I never really liked her but overall the entire novel was excellent. One of my favorite Chadwick's...although I say that almost everytime I finish one, lol![/quote]

Glad you enjoyed 'Lords' LCW! Fulke had quite a life - if it were a Hollywood script you'd think 'nah, impossible' but it really happened. I had to write the Fulke and Clarice bit because it is historical fact. What is interesting is the suggestion that Fulke's 3rd wife (if he took one) was a daughter of Llewelyn Fawr. There's no hard proof for that one, but there are hints. Interesting...
Les proz e les vassals
Souvent entre piez de chevals
Kar ja li coard n’I chasront

'The Brave and the valiant
Are always to be found between the hooves of horses
For never will cowards fall down there.'

Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal

www.elizabethchadwick.com

Post Reply

Return to “By Author's Last Name A-F”