Anyone here interested in 1790s France and England?

[ladytess]

I'm just curious :) I love the Revolutionary War era and would love to hear if others are too.:D

[Misfit]

Absolutely. I've been reading Dumas' series on the French Revolution and loving it. I've still got the last book to read Knight of the Maison Rouge, I believe this is about the attempt(s) to rescue Marie. Unfortunately another book has side tracked me :o

[Catherine Delors]

In fact my first novel, Mistress of the Revolution, is set during the (French) Revolution...

[Margaret]

I will have to add Mistress of the Revolution to my TBR! This was an incredible time period. A lot of authors have chosen to write about it, but so much was going on that there is plenty of room for more novels to explore different angles of it.

Two novels that I've reviewed on my Historical Novels website are Charles Dickens' classic A Tale of Two Cities (review at http://www.historicalnovels.info/A-Tale-of-Two-Cities.html) and Sandra Gulland's The Many Lives and Secret Sorrows of Josephine B., about Josephine Bonaparte, Napoleon's empress (review at http://www.historicalnovels.info/Many_Lives.html). These are totally different novels. Some people find Dickens' archaic language a bit hard to get used to; others love it. Dickens was a very popular author in his own time (A Tale of Two Cities was one of his very few historical novels), and it shows in his rapid pacing, his sense of humor, and his romantic storyline. Many Lives is my favorite type of novel - literary in its grace and precision of language and its depth of insight into the characters, but with a lively, page-turning pace that kept me wondering what was going to happen next.

[Tambo]

I like the era, although I have been put off recently.

My local book group read The Blackstone Key by Rose Melikan (an "adventure" novel set in 1790s England)
Over 90% of us (myself included) found it incredibly dull.

I think I need to cross the channel and have a little Dumas make things right again.

[Margaret]

I'm sorry to hear this about The Blackstone Key - it got good reviews. I do often find historical thrillers boring, though. I started Dietrich's Napoleon's Pyramids and set it aside after a couple of chapters. Now I'm working on an advance review copy of Liss's new historical thriller, The Whiskey Rebels. I'll finish reading it, but it's not thrilling me. I get much more hooked by strong characterization and a thorough exploration of a historical event or period - and the thriller format just doesn't lend itself to that kind of depth.

Can anyone recommend some historical thrillers they've really enjoyed?

[annis]

I haven't read "Whiskey Rebels", but I did find David Liss's "Benjamin Weaver"
historical mysteries, "Conspiracy of Paper" and "Spectacle of Corruption", very satisfying.
I also enjoyed Robert Goddard's thriller set around the South Sea Bubble collapse, "Sea Change" (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/g/robert-goddard/sea-change.htm).

[diamondlil]

I like the era, although I have been put off recently.

My local book group read The Blackstone Key by Rose Melikan (an "adventure" novel set in 1790s England)
Over 90% of us (myself included) found it incredibly dull.

I think I need to cross the channel and have a little Dumas make things right again.


Uh-oh! I just received this in the post yesterday!

[tsjmom]

In fact my first novel, Mistress of the Revolution, is set during the (French) Revolution...

I LOVED LOVED LOVED this novel. It is exactly the kind of story line I like. Truly was one of the most enjoyable books I've read re: the French Rev. Right up there, for me, with To Dance With Kings (one of my all time favorites!).

Catherine - if you have any other recs for similar novels please tell or PM me.

[Carla]

I'm sorry to hear this about The Blackstone Key - it got good reviews. I do often find historical thrillers boring, though. I started Dietrich's Napoleon's Pyramids and set it aside after a couple of chapters. Now I'm working on an advance review copy of Liss's new historical thriller, The Whiskey Rebels. I'll finish reading it, but it's not thrilling me. I get much more hooked by strong characterization and a thorough exploration of a historical event or period - and the thriller format just doesn't lend itself to that kind of depth.

Can anyone recommend some historical thrillers they've really enjoyed?

Well, I really liked Pompeii, by Robert Harris, partly because the hero was an aqueduct engineer (hurrah! a change from a soldier or a spy!), partly for the terrific description of the Vesuvius eruption, and partly because the Roman water supply system was critical to the story. Apart from Attilius the engineer, and maybe Vesuvius which is almost a character in its own right, the characterisation isn't all that great. Review here: http://www.carlanayland.org/reviews/pompeii.htm

I also liked The Conscience of the King, by Martin Stephen. This is a spy thriller featuring Henry Gresham (fictional; the Jacobean answer to James Bond) and involving conspiracies about who really wrote the plays of Shakespeare and why the Globe theatre really burned down. I thought it was great fun, like a James Bond film (and about as plausible). Again, characterisation was a bit on the obvious side, but there was some interesting stuff about the London theatre scene. Review here: http://www.carlanayland.org/reviews/conscience_king.htm.

I have The Blackstone Key for review at the moment - will be interesting to see what I think of it given the comments here!

[annis]

It's going off the C18th theme, but talking about historical thrillers, I loved Patricia Finney's Gloriana trilogy, set in Elizabethan England and featuring spies David Becket and Simon Ames
1. Firedrake's Eye
2. Unicorn's Blood
3. Gloriana's Torch

On the Georgian England and Revolutionary France theme, I'd like to put in a word for Diana Norman's trilogy
1) A Catch of Consequences
2) Taking Liberties
3) The Sparks Fly Upward"
Plenty of adventure, dry humor, and period atmosphere. They also focus on women's role in C18th society.

[scarletpimpernel]

I can't believe Orczy's The Scarlet Pimpernel has not yet been mentioned.

[Misfit]

Probably 'cause I haven't read it yet and only have vague recollections of the movie from childhood. It's on my ever growing list though. :o

[diamondlil]

I can't believe Orczy's The Scarlet Pimpernel has not yet been mentioned.

We used to have quite a big thread about Scarlet Pimpernel, so I am sure that we will get around to talking about it again!

[scarletpimpernel]

Oh that would be cool.. :) I devour historical fiction, but never has anything been closer to my heart than TSP books.

[Catherine Delors]

Thank you so very much! I am delighted to meet a fan of Gabrielle.

In fact, see my blog for a brand new release, The Black Tower, by Louis Bayard. A historical mystery set in Paris during and after the Revolution:

blog.catherinedelors.com/2008/09/01/an-interview-of-louis-bayard-author-of-the-black-tower.aspx
blog.catherinedelors.com/2008/08/29/the-black-tower-by-louis-bayard-and-an-upcoming-interview-of-the-author.aspx

Beautifully written, with great characters, historical and fictional.

I am also reading, enjoying, and reviewing as I go, The Duchess by Amanda Foreman.
blog.catherinedelors.com/2008/09/03/a-review-of-the-duchess-first-impressions.aspx

[Volgadon]

I love that period. The Scarlet Pimpernel is great fun.

[sweetpotatoboy]

I just remembered a great book set in 18th century France that I read a few years ago: Rasero by Mexican novelist Francisco Rebolledo.

Here's the Amazon page, where you can read some reviews of it. Really well written (and translated):
http://www.amazon.com/Rasero-Rebolledo-Francisco/dp/029781754X

[Margaret]

I've just finished reading Mistress of the Revolution and posting a review at http://www.historicalnovels.info/Mistress-of-the-Revolution.html. What a great read! My favorite novels tend to straddle the boundary between literary and popuar - that is, they have exciting plots, but also strongly developed, complex characters and thought-provoking themes. This novel satisfies on all counts.

Catherine, my research on companion nonfiction for this novel led me to information about Olympe de Gouge, a champion of women's rights during the Revolutionary period. Of course, the fictional Gabrielle is quite different in many ways, but there are enough similarities that I wondered whether you were partly inspired by her story.

[Catherine Delors]

Margaret, how is it I didn't get notified of your post? :confused: Oh well...
To answer your question about Olympe, oh yes she was an inspiration, along with dozens of other women (including myself, of course.) There were so many fascinating female figures at the time of the Revolution. So Gabrielle is a composite. Sometimes I did the reverse: take a real person and split her into different characters in the story. That's the beauty of fiction...

[Margaret]

No worries, Catherine - this site has gotten so big and rich, it's hard to keep up!

What a cool idea, to take a historical figure and split her up among several different characters. A good novelist always has to simplify real people and real events to at least some degree in order to keep a story from flying out of control. I love the idea of keeping some of the complexity in the story by using multiple characters.

[Catherine Delors]

Oh, Margaret, I think a good story is always flying out of control to some degree or other. That's what makes writing fun. :)

[Margaret]

I like that idea, Catherine. I will try to let myself fly out of control more often!

[Carla]

I like the era, although I have been put off recently.

My local book group read The Blackstone Key by Rose Melikan (an "adventure" novel set in 1790s England)
Over 90% of us (myself included) found it incredibly dull.

I think I need to cross the channel and have a little Dumas make things right again.

Just posted my review of The Blackstone Key over in the Reviews section. I can see why your reading group found it dull! There's so much fluttery Jane Austen-style gossip in drawing rooms that there's hardly any room for the mystery, let alone any adventure. Pity, because the premise appealed to me. Apparently it's the first of a trilogy, so maybe the adventure happens in the next book?

[M.M. Bennetts]

I'm a specialist in British political and military history of the Napoleonic era--which is to say a generalist, because in that era of the amateur, everyone did a bit of everything (both the Prince Regent and Lord Castlereagh were both fine amateur cellists, for example), and one thing always leads to another. I read non-fiction almost exclusively though.

[Catherine Delors]

I read non-fiction almost exclusively though.

But you belong to a site that's called Historical Fiction Online? :)

[M.M. Bennetts]

Well, I adore Patrick O'Brian and I know too he did more for bringing the study of this period of history back into people's lives than just about anything...but he also was accurate to a fault, so that you really could gain an idea of what it was truly like to live back then. He put you in the room (well, on the ship...) A fantastic achievement.

If we as historians get too up ourselves and forget that history is people and stop telling the stories, then we may as well throw in the towel now.

Historical fiction is one of the greatest formats for examining ourselves, our world and our past. Today is built on the foundations of yesterday.

Two of my favourite books are A Tale of Two Cities and The Battle of Wagram (Gilles Lapouge) because the history's all there, and these authors demand that we look at the ideas behind what was going on too, but they were also such great writers that who could put their books down? That, to me, is success.

[Margaret]

And after all, we do discuss a lot of history here, along with the fiction!

[Michy]

but he also was accurate to a fault

Ummmm, just wondering how accuracy can be a fault? ;)

[M.M. Bennetts]

Ummmm, just wondering how accuracy can be a fault? ;)

It shows up the errors that all the rest of us mere mortals make...and there were those who found it annoying that he was so insistent on having it all that thoroughly researched and understood. But since he was also described as 'crack for intellectuals' by Walter Cronkite, I guess O'Brian could live with the nay-sayers. Ha ha.

But when I say historical fiction is a most powerful medium, I mean it. At the big conferences on Trafalgar, at least half the 300+ delegates were chaps who'd become addicted to the history of the period through O'Brian's books.

Equally, naval history used to be a 'you'll be lucky if you can find it' course at university. Now, Exeter has a full enrollment in their course and it's the place to go for it at a graduate level too. And meanwhile, because of that, they've been able to expand into the ancillary work of studying shipyards and shipbuilding and that's led to a number of interesting studies on women owning shipyards in 1805.

[SGM]

I'm a specialist in British political and military history of the Napoleonic era

Outside your stated period, but do you have any recommendations on naval history (British) for the later part of the 17th century and very beginning of the 18th?

For reasons too complicated to go into, I am pursuing this line at the moment. I don't normally do the wars/battles being more interesting in causation and consequences (I was educated in an all girls' school so that is not so surprising) but as I grew up in and around Portsmouth, I do have rather more background in naval affairs than other military matters and I have a particular interest in the English navy from the Interregnum to the end of Queen Anne's reign.

[M.M. Bennetts]

Outside your stated period, but do you have any recommendations on naval history (British) for the later part of the 17th century and very beginning of the 18th?

For reasons too complicated to go into, I am pursuing this line at the moment. I don't normally do the wars/battles being more interesting in causation and consequences (I was educated in an all girls' school so that is not so surprising) but as I grew up in and around Portsmouth, I do have rather more background in naval affairs than other military matters and I have a particular interest in the English navy from the Interregnum to the end of Queen Anne's reign.

I'd start with N.A.M. Rodger's history of the navy...He's always utterly fascinating (in person or print). There should actually be a lot about that period, because that's when the whole navy was overhauled, Sam Pepys was at its head as Secretary of the Navy and introduced a modern system of record keeping--in fact any good biography of Samuel Pepys should cover his years at the Admiralty in detail. The Claire Tomalin one is the most recent and comprehensive. It's also the period when in order to build more ships, the Bank of England was formed--so again, a history of the first few years of the BoE will have all sorts of juicy info. Trust this will at least give you a launch pad.

As I recall there was a great arms race going on then, with the French. And in those days, arms race meant ships. The Dutch threat had been neutralised in November 1688 when William of Orange landed in Torbay with one of the largest flotillas had seen. So Catholic France thereafter became the main threat. Fascinating stuff!

[SGM]

I'd start with N.A.M. Rodger's history of the navy...He's always utterly fascinating (in person or print).

Thanks, I have the Rodger's books and I have been a fan of Pepys since my teens and was able to listen to the Tomalin book in audio format during a very boring job last year. I even have the Bryant books on him (I am not fond of Bryant). Unfortunately, Rodger is not detailed enough for me for the period I am interested in and Pepys (bless his little cotton socks) does not go on late enough for me (even including the later diaries). However, John Brewer's Sinews of Power is fascinating on the financial/economic consequences of the growth in the navy from the Restoration onwards.

I know of NF about Cromwell's navy and also the navy of the Restoration, but unfortunately, none of the local authority nor the University libraries I have access to hold them. I just wondered if there were other options as they are not cheap but I suppose I will have to stump up for them.

[M.M. Bennetts]

Thanks, I have the Rodger's books and I have been a fan of Pepys since my teens and was able to listen to the Tomalin book in audio format during a very boring job last year. I even have the Bryant books on him (I am not fond of Bryant). Unfortunately, Rodger is not detailed enough for me for the period I am interested in and Pepys (bless his little cotton socks) does not go on late enough for me (even including the later diaries). However, John Brewer's Sinews of Power is fascinating on the financial/economic consequences of the growth in the navy from the Restoration onwards.

I know of NF about Cromwell's navy and also the navy of the Restoration, but unfortunately, none of the local authority nor the University libraries I have access to hold them. I just wondered if there were other options as they are not cheap but I suppose I will have to stump up for them.

Let me ask about and get back to you. I think there may be some stuff in Lisa Jardine's book "Going Dutch" I think the book's called. Or something like that. And as ever, I check out the bibliographies...that's where the truly useful stuff is often found. The Bank of England angle might reveal some interesting stuff...also, I'll talk to a friend of mine at the University of Exeter, see if he's got any leads.

One thing you might want to consider though--obviously I don't know where you're based and London can be quite a distance--a readers card at the British Library. You have to produce a drivers' license and a current passport to get one, but a day spent there can be worth more than anything...it takes them about 70 minutes to bring your books to you...but after that: heaven!

[SGM]

[QUOTE=M.M. Bennetts;69395]One thing you might want to consider though--obviously I don't know where you're based and London can be quite a distance--a readers card at the British Library. QUOTE]

Thanks for your help. I am avoiding the British Library route at the moment because although it is very convenienty located for me, I work during the week so would only be able to use it on Saturdays when everybody else does. Also, they now say that if you are a private individual you are unlikely to get a reader's card for more than a month at a time which means constantly renewing it. Actually the Guildhall Library, which is far more accommodating that the BL, is very good just, unfortunately, not in this instance. However, when I move onto the medical aspects of the period I am interested in there is none better as they inherited all the records of the Barber-Surgeon's guild. So it's swings and roundabouts. I will get there in the end.

[Miss Moppet]

I am avoiding the British Library route at the moment because although it is very convenienty located for me, I work during the week so would only be able to use it on Saturdays when everybody else does. Also, they now say that if you are a private individual you are unlikely to get a reader's card for more than a month at a time which means constantly renewing it.

Did the library tell you that? If so it seems they are backtracking from their policy of a few years back which was to let everyone in, in the name of accessibility. The result was the place filled up with undergraduates who used it to read their own textbooks rather than use the collections, and at Easter and over the summer, with the influx of overseas academics, the overcrowding was appalling. It sounds like they have tightened things up and I hope they haven't gone in the other direction and put up barriers to people who really need to use the collections. I think it is worth a try - I actually find the library is much quieter on Saturdays than during the week and it is also open till 8pm Mon-Thurs and is relatively quiet after 5.30 on those evenings.

Edited to add: also, once you have a card you can order the material you need in advance online, so there's no wait once you get there. That does make it worth going just for an hour or two.

[M.M. Bennetts]

[QUOTE=M.M. Bennetts;69395]One thing you might want to consider though--obviously I don't know where you're based and London can be quite a distance--a readers card at the British Library. QUOTE]

Thanks for your help. I am avoiding the British Library route at the moment because although it is very convenienty located for me, I work during the week so would only be able to use it on Saturdays when everybody else does. Also, they now say that if you are a private individual you are unlikely to get a reader's card for more than a month at a time which means constantly renewing it. Actually the Guildhall Library, which is far more accommodating that the BL, is very good just, unfortunately, not in this instance. However, when I move onto the medical aspects of the period I am interested in there is none better as they inherited all the records of the Barber-Surgeon's guild. So it's swings and roundabouts. I will get there in the end.

I spoke to my friend at Exeter, and he suggested you get in touch by email with Michael Duffy who lectures there on naval history. He also found this for you: http://eric.exeter.ac.uk/exeter/handle/10036/104516

He's going to keep his ear to the ground now for you and I'll get back to you with anything else (anyone else?) he uncovers.

[M.M. Bennetts]

Did the library tell you that? If so it seems they are backtracking from their policy of a few years back which was to let everyone in, in the name of accessibility. The result was the place filled up with undergraduates who used it to read their own textbooks rather than use the collections, and at Easter and over the summer, with the influx of overseas academics, the overcrowding was appalling. It sounds like they have tightened things up and I hope they haven't gone in the other direction and put up barriers to people who really need to use the collections. I think it is worth a try - I actually find the library is much quieter on Saturdays than during the week and it is also open till 8pm Mon-Thurs and is relatively quiet after 5.30 on those evenings.

Edited to add: also, once you have a card you can order the material you need in advance online, so there's no wait once you get there. That does make it worth going just for an hour or two.

A friend of mine just got a reader's card--did the thing by internet, brought in his passport and driver's license, and got the thing on the day. No problem.

Yes, the place is packed at holidays with undergrads, but the rest of the time it's fine.

[SGM]

Did the library tell you that?
Edited to add: also, once you have a card you can order the material you need in advance online, so there's no wait once you get there. That does make it worth going just for an hour or two.

I must admit I have been looking into using the BL for many years and it keeps changing. I think I got the latest from their website but can't remember.

I do remember at one point, being told by them on the phone that they were a library of last resort and that I had to provide a list of books which I had been unable to source elsewhere and at another time they wanted a 500-word description of my research subject. I very much got the impression that they really didn't want the library freely used. Things may very well have changed now.

However, thanks for the info about Saturdays not being busy. Unfortunately, I can't make weekday evenings as at the moment I travel and long way and don't get back into London until late. But if Saturdays are not heaving with people, I may just jump in and do it.

I just wished I had got the ticket when I did my Masters because I could have got a lifetime ticket.

[SGM]

[QUOTE=SGM;69401]

I spoke to my friend at Exeter, and he suggested you get in touch by email with Michael Duffy who lectures there on naval history. He also found this for you: http://eric.exeter.ac.uk/exeter/handle/10036/104516

He's going to keep his ear to the ground now for you and I'll get back to you with anything else (anyone else?) he uncovers.

Thank you very much for all your help and advice. It is much appreciated. I always have to go for the obscure, it seems to be in my nature.

[M.M. Bennetts]

[QUOTE=M.M. Bennetts;69452]

Thank you very much for all your help and advice. It is much appreciated. I always have to go for the obscure, it seems to be in my nature.

No worries. Always a pleasure.

And the obscure stuff is often the most interesting...

[Minnie]

Love the Dickens (and Baroness Orczy - ?sp); but do try Hilary Mantel's 'A Place of Greater Safety'. Wonderfully vivid and well-written, it evokes all the horrors and glories of the French Revolution - as well as depicting clearly how the downfall is inevitable, ending the book with the judicial murders of Danton, Desmoulins and co. Terrific character studies: I've felt ever since as if I actually knew Camille Desmoulins ...!

[Miss Moppet]

However, thanks for the info about Saturdays not being busy. Unfortunately, I can't make weekday evenings as at the moment I travel and long way and don't get back into London until late. But if Saturdays are not heaving with people, I may just jump in and do it.


Best of luck! Don't know which reading room you will want to use but I have found Rare Books to be the quietest, both on weekdays and at the weekend.

[Diiarts]

I must admit I have been looking into using the BL for many years and it keeps changing. I think I got the latest from their website but can't remember.

I do remember at one point, being told by them on the phone that they were a library of last resort and that I had to provide a list of books which I had been unable to source elsewhere and at another time they wanted a 500-word description of my research subject. I very much got the impression that they really didn't want the library freely used. Things may very well have changed now.

However, thanks for the info about Saturdays not being busy. Unfortunately, I can't make weekday evenings as at the moment I travel and long way and don't get back into London until late. But if Saturdays are not heaving with people, I may just jump in and do it.

I just wished I had got the ticket when I did my Masters because I could have got a lifetime ticket.

I also recently (within the last month) got a reader's card in a personal capacity, with no hassle at all. It's valid for three years and there were no questions asked about the purpose. I applied online, and once I'd done so I was able to reserve items immediately, even before I'd gone in and got the card. So I ordered my items for the day I was due to collect my card, which made it ridiculously easy on the day. I can't speak for anyone else's experience but I found some pretty knowledgeable and helpful staff when I got there (which was a Saturday - not exactly deserted, but not overcrowded either).

The one caveat is that you MUST take in the forms of ID they specify.

[lvcabbie]

I've done a lot of research on this era from the Spanish/English viewpoint. It's interesting as how inter-mixed things were even with a lack of "24hr news" we have today.

For instance, I had no idea that the Spanish in the New World got involved with our American Revolution and one of the viceroys was the general commanding some forces that fought the British.

I also did a lot of research on England of the 1760-90's, although secondary to my main effort. It certainly taught me many things I never learned in school!:cool:

[oldhousejunkie]

It's going off the C18th theme, but talking about historical thrillers, I loved Patricia Finney's Gloriana trilogy, set in Elizabethan England and featuring spies David Becket and Simon Ames
1. Firedrake's Eye
2. Unicorn's Blood
3. Gloriana's Torch

On the Georgian England and Revolutionary France theme, I'd like to put in a word for Diana Norman's trilogy
1) A Catch of Consequences
2) Taking Liberties
3) The Sparks Fly Upward"
Plenty of adventure, dry humor, and period atmosphere. They also focus on women's role in C18th society.

I loved "A Catch of Consequence" but I have never read "Taking Liberties" or "The Sparks Fly Upward." I need to add them to my TBR pile.

I loved "Mistress of the Revolution" as well. Excellent read!

I am working on a novel set during the Irish Rebellion of 1798...but I've got loads of research to do yet.

[Nickie]

As I just love history, the French revolution and the Napoleontic era are within my interest.
As a matter of fact, I plan part three of my Medici Diamonds trilogy in that timeframe. The first part start early in the 18th century, while part two (which I'm about to start) sits around the middle of that century (and Bonnie Prince Charlies features in it).
I just need to do a bit more of research, but the story lines are already in my head.
Oh, and by the way, my writing is a bit like The Scarlet Pimpernel or The Three Musketeers.