Time and Chance by Sharon Kay Penman

[LCW]

This is the second book in Penman's trilogy on Henry fitz Empress and Eleanor of Aquitaine. It covers the early passion filled years of their marriage through the "cool off" period when Henry takes up with his long time mistress Rosamund Clifford. The whole Thomas Becket affair is also depicted here.

I loved the portrayal of Henry and Eleanor. I stayed up way to late for quite a few nights as I just couldn't pull my nose out of this book. The passion between them was palpable!! And the scene where they meet for the first time after Eleanor found out about Henry's adultery with Rosamun was just crackling with tension and the unspoken emotions between Henry and Eleanor. It was really brilliant!

The focus on the relationship between Henry and Thomas Becket was initially almost as interesting but quickly got boring and I found myself skipping a few pages to get to "the end" of that. Penman takes Henry's perspective in this novel and gives the reader and excellent glimpse into his mind and how he never fully understood the 180 Becket did after he became the Archbishop. His feelings of bewilderment, betrayal, and hurt were evident. However, because of the focus on Henry's perspective, this does leave Becket as somewhat of a mystery to the reader. While I didn't really mind it so much, I understand how it could be frustrating to some.

We are also given a glimpse into the early childhood of King John. I thought it was interesting how he was portrayed as a neglected child and Penman was layng the ground work and attempting to explain some of the reasons he turned into such a villain in history.

I would highly recommend this novel, even though it's not my favorite Penman, it is still a wonderful read.

4.5/5 stars

[MLE]

The Becket thread was a bore for me too. Maybe I'll rent the 1964 movie and watch it again, as I only have the vaguest memory of what went on.

Even though Becket was presented from Henry's POV, I still didn't feel that SKP was up to her usual standard. Henry must have had some idea as to what motivated Becket, even if it was a wrong one. I'm only 2/3s through the book now, so I don't know if some theory is ever presented, but so far, all I get is the blow-by-blow of the details and that the king is immensely frustrated.

Looking at the details, Becket's behavior doesn't make sense to the modern reader, either. It appears that his only purpose was to be as contrary as possible and to bolster up everything that was corrupt and capricious about the medieval church structure.

As somebody who has worked with drug/alcohol rehabilitation, I am familiar with 180-degree turnarounds, so I tried to apply my experience of human nature to the bare-bones details about Becket. The only thing that would make sense is if the greater half of Becket's story has been left out -- some major soul-searching conversion on Becket's part -- and then the exterior trappings of the religious zeitgeist of his day were confused with the rest of the package, the dross mixed with the gold, something immature believers do all the time.

But to verify that picture, other details would have to be present: some obviously rotten facet of Becket's behavior changing to something obviously virtuous, and then the passion that drove that getting mis-applied to church stupidities. The one thing that history does make plain is that Becket was willing to sacrifice everything for whatever principle changed him. It just doesn't seem that protecting rapists and murderers from justice can stand on its own as something worth dying for.

[Misfit]

I've just never been able to grasp how and why Becket became a saint -- no matter what ultimately happened to him (martydom) it seems to this lay person that he brought some of it on himself.

[LCW]

I'm only 2/3s through the book now, so I don't know if some theory is ever presented, but so far, all I get is the blow-by-blow of the details and that the king is immensely frustrated.



Nope, there never really is a good explanation for Becket's behavior. Henry remains mystefied by it until the end. I think this is really the main weakness in the novel. I get the whole "Henry's perspective thing" but I don't think it was very effective. Towards the end my eyes sort of glassed over whenever the book focused on Becket. I was so enthralled by Henry and Eleanor though so that's why I probably didn't really even care about Becket that much, to be honest.

[Susan]

I've just never been able to grasp how and why Becket became a saint -- no matter what ultimately happened to him (martydom) it seems to this lay person that he brought some of it on himself.

I think Becket's canonization was partially due to the widespread veneration of Becket as a martyr throughout Europe. The masses made him their saint and the pope officially made him a saint three years later.

I visited Canterbury Cathedral in March and was quite interested in seeing where Becket was killed. This is a photo of the altar that marks the site.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t81/sef127/CanterburyBeckeyMartyrdom_England_0.jpg

[LCW]

I've just never been able to grasp how and why Becket became a saint -- no matter what ultimately happened to him (martydom) it seems to this lay person that he brought some of it on himself.

Plus the way he died was so gruesome that it probably inspired lots of sympathy for him. That probably started the initial spark of the whole idea of his sainthood, IMO. And people were made into saints for all sorts of absurd reasons! Lots of "miracles" attributed to their corpses, etc. I guess that's what happened to him too.

[Tanzanite]

I just finished reading this. I agree about the sections related to Becket - especially towards the end. That part was rather boring. I loved the relationship between Henry and Eleanor though and thought it was the best characterization of it that I've read so far. Overall, I liked the book, but I don't think it's in the same class as Here Be Dragons or The Reckoning.

[EC2]

It's not my favourite Penman either - mainly down to Becket and how his character never really came to life in the author's hands. It's a while since I've read it and I've no real desire to read it again - but I wonder if Becket's viewpoint and motivation is missing? I seem to recall being told about what he'd done but it was as if I was an observer in a passing tourist coach and the person at the mike was just relaying eye-glazing details that they themselves were not passionate about.
I think that Becket liked power and that he was obsessive. I think that being made Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Church gave him his own arena in which to perform. Hey, Henry was the King and the secular head of England, but being made AB of C turned Becket into head of the Church in England and not answerable to Henry for his wages, but to God. And since God trumps the King, Becket had the superior boss and was answerable only to HIM.
I am afraid that on another list to which I belong, Becket is known as 'Ole Wormy.' This is because when his garments were removed after death, his nether garments were crawling with maggots. Said garments were used to dunk in water and then 'Essence of Becket' was sold to the pilgrims at great profit to Canterbury...

[Ash]

I'm in agreement here; I loved the whole book, except for the last section. It just was too repetitious, with Becket disappointing Henry again and again. Ok, we get it. I do agree that Becket probably enjoyed the power he had and it went to his head. Before reading this I assumed he was a great man. After reading this I really did question his sainthood. But I agree - the way he died, and that he possibly did so at the bequest of the king, probably did much to get the church to make him a saint.

I am sooo eager to get Devil's Brood in my hot little hands!

[Carla]

It's not my favourite Penman either - mainly down to Becket and how his character never really came to life in the author's hands. It's a while since I've read it and I've no real desire to read it again - but I wonder if Becket's viewpoint and motivation is missing? I seem to recall being told about what he'd done but it was as if I was an observer in a passing tourist coach and the person at the mike was just relaying eye-glazing details that they themselves were not passionate about.
I think that Becket liked power and that he was obsessive. I think that being made Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Church gave him his own arena in which to perform. Hey, Henry was the King and the secular head of England, but being made AB of C turned Becket into head of the Church in England and not answerable to Henry for his wages, but to God. And since God trumps the King, Becket had the superior boss and was answerable only to HIM.
I am afraid that on another list to which I belong, Becket is known as 'Ole Wormy.' This is because when his garments were removed after death, his nether garments were crawling with maggots. Said garments were used to dunk in water and then 'Essence of Becket' was sold to the pilgrims at great profit to Canterbury...

Yuk :-) It's funny how appalling personal hygiene was regarded as admirable and a characteristic of sainthood. Mortifying the flesh and all that, I suppose.

I think you're spot on that Becket's viewpoint and motivation were missing from the novel - certainly I didn't get a clear idea when I read it. Which was a bit disappointing, because I've always been puzzled by Becket's volte face and wanted to understand it. You may well be right that his appointment as Archbishop suddenly gave him a power base of his own and the opportunity to throw his weight around. Empress Maud warned Henry in a letter not to appoint Becket - one case where Henry really should have taken his mother's advice!

[MLE]

Hey, the whole thread is back! How did somebody get that to happen? Can we do that with other threads?

[diamondlil]

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean from the other site?

[MLE]

yes. Look at the dates! And my post earlier was made on the old site. I never moved it.

[JaneConsumer]

Cool photo, Susan. Thanks for sharing it!

[Rowan]

Firstly, I agree that that photo is phenominal. That's a very interesting cross on the wall... It drew my eye above all else.

Secondly, I partly agree with what's been said regarding Becket and Henry. I did think that SKP went a bit overboard prolonging the disagreement between the two men, but I don't have a problem with not knowing what Becket's motivation was. After all, the book is about Henry, not about Becket. If I want to know why Becket did what he did, I'd expect to find that in a book about him. But that's just me.

Thirdly, I, too, enjoyed the sparks that fly between Henry and Eleanor, both passionate and decidedly unpassionate. I wanted to kick his rear for taking the mistress.

[Miss Moppet]

Thomas Becket’s martyrdom is the climactic event to which much of Time and Chance, sequel to When Christ and His Saints Slept, leads up. Sharon Kay Penman is known for her fidelity to the historical record, and while this has won her an appreciative international audience, it is an approach that brings its own difficulties. The murder of Becket was a turning point in English history, one of the most dramatic events of the Middle Ages. The trail of events which caused it amount to an ongoing squabble between Church and Crown, frequently petty, episodic, rambling and full of arcane legal and theological detail. It’s very hard to make compelling fiction out of this kind of material and so it’s understandable that Time and Chance doesn’t always succeed.

While the Becket thread didn’t quite work for me – it didn’t have the read-on factor and didn’t leave me with a better understanding of the beleaguered Archbishop, since none of the story is told from his point of view – I was delighted to meet Henry and Eleanor again. I love Sharon’s Eleanor and I can’t imagine a better depiction of a royal marriage where passion and politics combine. It certainly provided a refreshing contrast to the stilted, implausible sex-fest that was Alison Weir’s The Captive Queen.

The fictional couple from When Christ and His Saints Slept, Ranulf and Rhiannon, make a return, and Ranulf, an illegitimate son of Henry I by a Welsh mistress married to a Welshwoman and living in Wales, finds himself caught in the middle when his nephew Henry II makes war on Wales. The Welsh court is vividly drawn, especially the heir to the throne, the sociable and musical Hywel and his deadly enemy, glamorous royal mistress Cristyn (bastards could inherit in Wales so her sons have a chance to rule), so that as in When Christ and His Saints Slept, the reader’s sympathies are pulled both ways.

You also get a good sense of how much energy was required to rule a kingdom of the Middle Ages: Henry and Eleanor are perpetually on the move around their empire, and while I had thought of this period of Henry’s reign (1156-1170) as an interlude between civil war, in fact he was constantly putting out fires in the form of risings and rebellions in one corner or another of his vast domains. One of my favourite scenes was Henry’s attempted invasion of Wales, which had to be called off due to weather which was, to say the least, inclement. In fact, this section put me in mind of the attempt of the Fellowship of the Ring to cross the Misty Mountains, thwarted by heavy snow and the ill will of the mountain Caradhras.

For the rest of his days, Henry was to refer to the squall upon the Berwyns with the very worst of the obscenities he had at his considerable command. Never had he encountered a storm so savage, or so long-lasting. Ironically, the English would have fared better had they still been down in the Ceiriog Forest they’d been so eager to leave behind. Here, upon the unsheltered moors, they were at the mercy of the elements. Fires could not be set as kindling was saturated, the ground soaked. The only food available was what could be eaten uncooked or raw and men were soon sickening, stricken by chills, fever and the feared bloody flux. Henry was far less superstitious than most of his contemporaries, with a sceptical streak that few besides Eleanor either understood or appreciated. But even he began to wonder if such foul weather could be dismissed as mere happenchance.

When the rain finally eased two days later, the English army resumed its march, only to discover that the mountain road was washed away in places, the streams swollen with run-off water, and the moorlands pitted with newly formed bogs. Still, they pressed on, driven by the sheer force of Henry’s implacable will. By now some of the ailing men had begun to die. They were buried with indecent haste, left to moulder in an alien, hostile land, and the army straggled on. They had a new concern now – their dwindling supplies – for some of their provisions had been lost or ruined during the storm. But when a hunting party was sent to search for game, it did not return. Hungry and dispirited, the soldiers trudged on, cursing the Welsh aloud and Henry under their breaths.

They were higher up now, and the air held a surprising chill for August. Henry had dismounted and was wrapping a blindfold around his stallion’s eyes, for there was a narrow stretch of road ahead and English horses were not as accustomed to these heights as the surefooted animals the Welsh rode. The wind still pursued them, shrieking at night like the souls of the damned, chasing away sleep and catching their words mid-sentence so that men had to shout to make themselves heard. Now a sudden gust ripped the blindfold from Henry’s hand and sent it flying. He was turning to get another strip of cloth when the screams began.

While not the strongest entry in the trilogy, Time and Chance is a must-read for fans of Henry and Eleanor and for anyone fascinated by the turbulent twelfth century.

[Michy]

Moppet -- enjoyed your review; as always, you articulate your viewpoints so well. I read through the whole thread and it sounds as though everyone feels pretty much the same way about this book. So if I ever decide to give SKP another try, I don't think I'll start with this one. :)




Looking at the details, Becket's behavior doesn't make sense to the modern reader, either. It appears that his only purpose was to be as contrary as possible and to bolster up everything that was corrupt and capricious about the medieval church structure.


Nope, there never really is a good explanation for Becket's behavior. Henry remains mystefied by it until the end. I think this is really the main weakness in the novel.

I've never really been puzzled by Becket's 180 -- although I'm certainly no scholar, so my theory could be full of holes. :) I think that besides being ambitious in his own way, and liking power as EC suggests, I think he was also what we would call today a "company man"; that is, he was totally and blindly loyal and extremely committed to the boss/company above any individual or personal relationship. He took his position (whatever it was) very seriously, and was probably also driven and obsessive, as EC suggests. When he was Henry's chancellor, his whole loyalty was to the crown. Henry totally mistook this for personal friendship and loyalty to himself, and thought that by making Becket A of C, he would have the Archbishopric in his back pocket. However, in his new position Becket transferred all of his blind loyalty, drive and obsession to the new "company" (the church) and his new "boss" (the pope). Too late, Henry realized his mistake. He probably never really understood Becket's behavior because he was wired so completely differently.


I am afraid that on another list to which I belong, Becket is known as 'Ole Wormy.' This is because when his garments were removed after death, his nether garments were crawling with maggots. Said garments were used to dunk in water and then 'Essence of Becket' was sold to the pilgrims at great profit to Canterbury...

This is the part that is hard for me to comprehend. I had always heard about the hair shirt, but maggots??!! :eek::eek::eek:

The only explanation that even makes a little sense to me is that in the 12c mindset, this was earning BIG-time points in the afterlife. Perhaps similar to what drove Japanese kamikazis and what motivates today's suicide bombers??

[Miss Moppet]

Moppet -- enjoyed your review; as always, you articulate your viewpoints so well. I read through the whole thread and it sounds as though everyone feels pretty much the same way about this book. So if I ever decide to give SKP another try, I don't think I'll start with this one. :)

Thanks Michy! No, I wouldn't recommend starting with this one. Which of the other books did you try?

I've never really been puzzled by Becket's 180 -- although I'm certainly no scholar, so my theory could be full of holes. :) I think that besides being ambitious in his own way, and liking power as EC suggests, I think he was also what we would call today a "company man"; that is, he was totally and blindly loyal and extremely committed to the boss/company above any individual or personal relationship. He took his position (whatever it was) very seriously, and was probably also driven and obsessive, as EC suggests. When he was Henry's chancellor, his whole loyalty was to the crown. Henry totally mistook this for personal friendship and loyalty to himself, and thought that by making Becket A of C, he would have the Archbishopric in his back pocket. However, in his new position Becket transferred all of his blind loyalty, drive and obsession to the new "company" (the church) and his new "boss" (the pope). Too late, Henry realized his mistake. He probably never really understood Becket's behavior because he was wired so completely differently.

Yes, that makes sense.

This is the part that is hard for me to comprehend. I had always heard about the hair shirt, but maggots??!! :eek::eek::eek:

The only explanation that even makes a little sense to me is that in the 12c mindset, this was earning BIG-time points in the afterlife. Perhaps similar to what drove Japanese kamikazis and what motivates today's suicide bombers??

Yes, and I think that mindset is so alien to most of us, living in a very secular society, that it makes Becket that much harder to understand. As he gained wealth and power, he may have felt the need to compensate to avoid spending centuries in Purgatory.

Also, in England at least, we lost the tradition of venerating the saints and martyrs with the Reformation. Henry VIII had Becket's shrine, which had been so popular, completely destroyed. It could be that Becket foresaw his martyrdom and accepted it, seeing it as a path to eternal life and everlasting glory. If his shrine was still there in all its magnificence, would it make it easier to understand why he made the choices he did?

[Michy]

Which of the other books did you try?
I tried When Christ and His Saints Slept. It was recommended to me by a former co-worker who knew I like the Norman/early Plantagenet eras, and who was herself an SKP fan. I really wanted to like the book, and I tried..... but about 1/4 or 1/3 into it I realized I was forcing myself to read the book. I just couldn't get into it, it was a slog. So I quit, and I haven't tried any other SKPs since.



Yes, that makes sense.
I suspect my take on Becket is strongly influenced by Jean Plaidy, who was the first author I read on this era. It has been many years, now, so I don't remember exactly, but I suspect this is pretty much how she presented Becket and his motivations.



Henry VIII had Becket's shrine, which had been so popular, completely destroyed. When I hear things like this it makes me want to cry. Wasn't a lot destroyed during Cromwell's era, too? And of course, there was much destroyed in France during and after the Revolution. It is tragic! I hope to visit England and France someday, and I would love to be able to see the old, old beautiful things and places that were destroyed. Oh, well, if you've never seen it then you can't miss it, right? ;)

[Miss Moppet]

When I hear things like this it makes me want to cry. Wasn't a lot destroyed during Cromwell's era, too? And of course, there was much destroyed in France during and after the Revolution. It is tragic! I hope to visit England and France someday, and I would love to be able to see the old, old beautiful things and places that were destroyed. Oh, well, if you've never seen it then you can't miss it, right? ;)

It definitely was a revelation for me to travel in continental Europe and see all the Catholic churches and shrines which weren't destroyed or looted. One that particularly sticks in my mind is Melk Abbey in Austria, near Vienna:

http://www.travlang.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Melk-Abbey_11.jpg

When I visited, which is years ago, there was a wedding taking place - what a place to get married!

[Michy]

Oh wow. That is breathtaking. It looks (in the picture anyway!) like it could rival St. Peter's in Rome, which is the most breathtaking building I have been to date.

And to get married there ..... how beautiful. *sigh.* You would definitely save money on decorations!