View Full Version : October 2008: The Devil's Brood by Sharon Kay Penman
diamondlil
09-29-2008, 08:32 PM
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Discuss the October BOTM - The Devil's Brood by Sharon Kay Penman - in this thread.
What is the actual US date of release?
diamondlil
09-30-2008, 02:39 AM
October 7 I believe.
JaneConsumer
10-09-2008, 11:23 AM
I enjoyed the book very much. My review (http://fuzzyhistory.com/2008/10/07/devils-brood-by-sharon-kay-penman/) is based on a reading of the ARC.
BTW, Even though it's part of a series, I didn't find it necessary to have the first 2 books. It reads like a stand-alone novel.
Misfit
10-09-2008, 01:37 PM
I'm on about page 100 or so and enjoying it very much. It's interesting to see how she's setting up the disputes between Henry and the younger Henry along with the other brothers -- it's not all black and white.
I agree with Jane, it can stand alone, she's taken enough care to set up some of the background on the Becket bit and more so a new reader would not be completely lost. Although I'd not want to give up reading the early years of Henry and Eleanore. They do smoke off the pages!!
I also agree that it can stand alone. Although having read the first two books I found the first 50-60 pages a bit tedious and I wondered if I was going to enjoy the book :eek:! But once we got past the set up for the story it got much better and I'm enjoying it now. SKP is so good at describing the back and forth between Henry and Eleanor and showing the reader exactly how these two people who were once so in love and had the world at their feet ended up hating each other as they did.
Misfit
10-09-2008, 03:34 PM
I agree it's a bit slow at first, but since it's been almost three years since I read the first two it was helpful to have some catch up on back story. Young Hal just slipped out of the castle this morning before I had to put it down and go to work......dang just when things were getting interesting.
Its interesting reading this after reading The Greatest Knight. There's much that dovetails the stories together, making it such an enjoyable read, even more so than it would have been if I hadn't read GK
Susan
10-09-2008, 04:39 PM
Its interesting reading this after reading The Greatest Knight. There's much that dovetails the stories together, making it such an enjoyable read, even more so than it would have been if I hadn't read GK
Now you have given me the idea to read The Greatest Knight after I finish Devil's Brood (and The Other Queen, which I am itching to read to see for myself what it is like.) GK has been sitting in my TBR pile for too long.
Misfit
10-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Ash is right, its an interesting perspective to see William from the other side of the coin. I noticed Penman's take on William's father is a bit different than what I came away with after reading EC's A Place Beyond Courage.
I also agree that it can stand alone. Although having read the first two books I found the first 50-60 pages a bit tedious and I wondered if I was going to enjoy the book :eek:! But once we got past the set up for the story it got much better and I'm enjoying it now. SKP is so good at describing the back and forth between Henry and Eleanor and showing the reader exactly how these two people who were once so in love and had the world at their feet ended up hating each other as they did.
In reality I am beginning to wonder if they were so in love. I think it's a nice idea to run with, and as a version of fiction I think very few will ever do it better than SKP, but I am not at all sure it's the truth.
Ash is right, its an interesting perspective to see William from the other side of the coin. I noticed Penman's take on William's father is a bit different than what I came away with after reading EC's A Place Beyond Courage.
That's because she absolutely does not know John Marshal the way I do.:) Even without the Akashic records, if you look under the surface and enquire more deeply of the sources there are so many clues that point you straight at the kind of man he was.
Misfit
10-10-2008, 01:39 PM
In reality I am beginning to wonder if they were so in love. I think it's a nice idea to run with, and as a version of fiction I think very few will ever do it better than SKP, but I am not at all sure it's the truth.
True love or not they do smoke off the pages -- sparks fly whenever they're in a room together. On page 160 now and things are definitely picking up.
Misfit
10-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Dejavu from Time of Singing! Roger Bigod's in the story :)
Dejavu from Time of Singing! Roger Bigod's in the story :)
I think this is one of the reasons I'm not going to read the book at the moment. I had intended to, but have decided I need some distance first. I very strongly know my own versions of the people concerned and deluded or not I believe I've met them across the centuries as well as in Roger's case having done in depth traditional research on him. So I think I'm going to find it very hard to read someone else's take on such aspects at the moment. Once I move away from that same field and I've acquired aforementioned distance, (late next year when I'll be dealing with another century) I'll probably be much more comfortable.
Sometime it would be nice just to be a reader :( I'm really glad everyone's enjoying it though!
Misfit
10-10-2008, 05:23 PM
EC, probably a very wise move. I know I read Harold The King within a month or two of Anand's Gildenford and found quite a lot of been there done that happening. I intend to read the rest of Anand's trilogy, but I'm pacing it so that won't happen again.
Wow, what a confrontation between Henry and Eleanor after her capture.
Question about this illegitimate son of Henry's by the name of Geoff. Is he fictional or did he exist?
EC,
Question about this illegitimate son of Henry's by the name of Geoff. Is he fictional or did he exist?
Would that be Geoffrey who went on to become the rather stroppy Archbishop of York when he grew up? Yes, there was an illegitimate one called Geoffrey.
boswellbaxter
10-10-2008, 06:05 PM
I enjoyed Devil's Brood much better than Time and Chance. I felt that in the previous novel, the author was trying a bit too hard to "sell" Eleanor as a Strong Woman, and what was probably intended to be strength often struck me as arrogance. Here, Eleanor was strong, but she also had a welcome dash of humility, which made her much more palatable to me.
I was also pleased to see more emphasis on the historical figures and less on Ranulf and Rhiannon--I found them to be somewhat intrusive in Time and Chance.
Misfit
10-10-2008, 06:59 PM
Would that be Geoffrey who went on to become the rather stroppy Archbishop of York when he grew up? Yes, there was an illegitimate one called Geoffrey.
Not sure, right now I get the impression he's on the youngish side and he's out fighting battles for Henry. The list of characters in the front just name him as Geoff, Henry's illegitimate son.
Misfit
10-10-2008, 07:02 PM
I enjoyed Devil's Brood much better than Time and Chance. I felt that in the previous novel, the author was trying a bit too hard to "sell" Eleanor as a Strong Woman, and what was probably intended to be strength often struck me as arrogance. Here, Eleanor was strong, but she also had a welcome dash of humility, which made her much more palatable to me.
I was also pleased to see more emphasis on the historical figures and less on Ranulf and Rhiannon--I found them to be somewhat intrusive in Time and Chance.
I agree, and Eleanor is getting quite a humbling right now. I still can't quite get her rationale for spurring her sons on to this rebellion against her husband. Hal is just flat out too irresponsible to rule anything.
I agree, and Eleanor is getting quite a humbling right now. I still can't quite get her rationale for spurring her sons on to this rebellion against her husband. Hal is just flat out too irresponsible to rule anything.
My impression is that she was counting on the nobility who were supporting their cause to be the real brains of the operation. Although King Louis is a big exception to that one!! I think she felt that Henry was stifling Hal and was being unfair to Richard with regards to Aquitaine. She also held a lot of resentment towards Henry about her own claim to Aquitaine since she was the rightful ruler but Henry didn't allow her to rule it as she saw fit. Also, I think when Henry had the Count (?) of Tolouse do homage to himself, Hal, and then Richard as an afterthought meanwhile leaving her, the rightful Duchess of the lands, completely out of it was more than an insult to her. IMO, at least from what the way the book describes it, that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back!
I'm loving it and have had to pull myself away from it each time!! I never read first thing in the morning but since my dog is recovering from surgery we couldn't do our morning I walk so I used the hour curl up with a cup of coffee and Devil's Brood instead! It felt downright decadent on a weekday! :D
I was also pleased to see more emphasis on the historical figures and less on Ranulf and Rhiannon--I found them to be somewhat intrusive in Time and Chance.
I agree! I thought they fit very well into the story line, esp. Ranulf, in When Christ and His Saints Slept but in Time and Chance it felt like they were just leftovers from the first novel!
Misfit
10-10-2008, 08:30 PM
Would that be Geoffrey who went on to become the rather stroppy Archbishop of York when he grew up? Yes, there was an illegitimate one called Geoffrey.
Just got my own question answered. Picked the book back up and Geoff is referred to as "bishop elect".
Misfit
10-10-2008, 08:33 PM
Also, I think when Henry had the Count (?) of Tolouse do homage to himself, Hal, and then Richard as an afterthought meanwhile leaving her, the rightful Duchess of the lands, completely out of it was more than an insult to her. IMO, at least from what the way the book describes it, that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back!
I agree there but it seemed to me like it all started before that? Louis is quite something and I love the way Henry deals with him -- although I'm pretty much of the opinion so far that Henry gets all the best lines in this book.
I still can't quite get her rationale for spurring her sons on to this rebellion against her husband. Hal is just flat out too irresponsible to rule anything.
I am passed the 'rebellion' section and am scratching my head as well. I've known for a long time that she did this, but I don't get the rationale either - unless its the bitterness of the role that she has been put in, not being in charge. Henry's reaction is so stunning that if I didn't have sympathy for him I did now. If she indeed loved him, what was that all about?
But even more than that I am scratching my head why in the world Henry would make Hal king. Its obvious, in the books I've read, that he is totall irresponsible, and has no clue what it would mean to govern. I know it was a continental tradition, but what would the advantages be?
EC I understand why you wouldn't want to read it. But it is interesting because both of you have different focus. Your on Marshall and Hal have helped me understand what is happening between Henry and the King, with Marshall in the background. It doesn't mean either of you are wrong or right about your conclusions, but together they add to understanding of the situation.
Misfit
10-11-2008, 12:17 AM
I'm about half way through and Henry and Eleanore have just had a very interesting game of tell the truth. Still though any rationale given just makes no sense, at least to me, and I agree with Ash that Henry made a huge mistake giving Hal so much power.
I'm past page 350 and finally we're starting to see young John come into his own.
I'm somewhere on pg. 350 too and I have say I'm still on Eleanor's side!! Although I totally get why Henry, in his Kingly narcissism, was so blindsided by Eleanor's betrayal. I'm sure it was esp. painful since he did trust her so completely but marrying Eleanor is what gave him such a vast Kingdom and he completely takes her for granted and doesn't give any thought as to how she feels or how his actions affect her. If he wasn't so self-absorbed he would've been able to see that his wife was not a woman to be trifled with in that way!!
Misfit
10-11-2008, 02:10 AM
To be honest, I still haven't decided which parent (if not both) are to blame for problems of their children. I think they've both made mistake and molly-coddled them. Time and the pages of a book will tell.
Hal was given the kingship in his father's lifetime not just to keep up with the French but because of Henry's insecurity over what happened to him in the past during the civil war. It was to secure the throne in the event of Henry's death. Hal was 'given' power in order to boost his standing, but a lot of it seems to be by word only rather than allowing him free rein - which was one of the reasons Hal chaffed.
If children learn from their parents and often repeat their mistakes, then perhaps we have to look at the parenting skills (or lack of them) in Henry and Eleanor's upbringing. I haven't particularly looked at how Eleanor's parents went on - didn;t her father die young? but the Empress is supposed to have been responsible for a lot of how Henry applied his policies - keep people hungry and dangling for morsels (which is exactly what Henry did to Roger Bigod) and which would accord with him giving Hal power on paper but not wanting to relinquish his hold - can't blame him when revenues just ran through Hal's hands like water. However, Hal by all accounts was supposed to be a charmer who could talk the talk, even if he didn't want to walk the walk - too much like hard work and everyone loved him. A bit like Princess Di I suppose. There was the public persona and then there was the reality.
I wonder how much input the parents had with their children when they were younger and how much was left to tutors and other household departments. Just rambling here :)
Misfit
10-11-2008, 01:43 PM
What a dysfuntional family, but I do feel that the parenting skills (or lack thereof) of Henry and Eleanor contributed greatly to this mess, especially Hal and John.
I'm trying to figure out a play of words on The Family Feud (remember the old game show?) when I write my review :):)
Susan
10-11-2008, 04:01 PM
I have a three day weekend (Columbus Day on Monday) and hope to get a substantial amount of reading done on this book (along with some school work which never ends!). Does anyone else think the font size is small? I guess if the font size were larger the book would be many more pages long and the publisher would see that as a negative.
Misfit
10-11-2008, 07:38 PM
The font's a bit small but there's some spacing between the lines that eases up the pressure on the eyes. There's tons of dialogue (especially in the last half) that I'm now finding the pages are flying.
I am just loving the scenes I'm in now between Henry and the brothers - the dialogue is just exceptional.
Susan
10-11-2008, 08:18 PM
The font's a bit small but there's some spacing between the lines that eases up the pressure on the eyes. There's tons of dialogue (especially in the last half) that I'm now finding the pages are flying.
I am just loving the scenes I'm in now between Henry and the brothers - the dialogue is just exceptional.
I'll look forward to that dialogue. I'm still in the beginning where there is not much dialogue.
ellenjane
10-11-2008, 10:57 PM
I'm just getting started, too. I had an absolutely miserable work week that didn't allow me to read anything. There were many longing glances at the Amazon box. :p
Henry's motive for crowning Hal in his lifetime as a way to spare his son the hardships he went through is mentioned a bit in Time & Chance (or maybe Christs). It's just an aside, though, so I'll be interested to see if it comes through more strongly in the new novel.
I've been noticing smaller fonts in general, and the last year or so have put aside a book (usually paperback) because the print is too tiny. I don't see the problem here, but then I think the font she is using here is the one she used in other books. I could be wrong.
I knew that Henry did penance at Cantebury, and remember it shown in the movie Beckett - but that short scene was nothing like what Penman describes. Im assuming that was all taken from primary sources. And even tho his words that she has him say alone at the tomb may not have been the real ones, they broke my heart.
BTW Simon de Montfort has a role in this book - is he the same Monfort from the Welsh trilogy (the one whose death had me in tears for days?) or is this his father? Im thinking that Montfort and his nemisis Henry the III were of the same age, so the one in this book had to be the father, is that right?
Susan
10-12-2008, 03:38 AM
I knew that Henry did penance at Cantebury, and remember it shown in the movie Beckett - but that short scene was nothing like what Penman describes. Im assuming that was all taken from primary sources. And even tho his words that she has him say alone at the tomb may not have been the real ones, they broke my heart.
BTW Simon de Montfort has a role in this book - is he the same Monfort from the Welsh trilogy (the one whose death had me in tears for days?) or is this his father? Im thinking that Montfort and his nemisis Henry the III were of the same age, so the one in this book had to be the father, is that right?
I believe the incident in the film Becket and the incident in the book Devil's Brood are two separate incidents.
I found a primary source regarding the penance from circa 1200 (about 29 years after Becket's murder) by William of Newburgh http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/williamnewburgh-becket1.html
Scroll down to Chap. XXXV - Of the memorable penance of the King of England, and of its consequence where it says, "King Henry the second had now come into England from Normandy, to throw the strength of his presence against his son, who was expected to arrive with the Flemish forces; but remembering how much he had sinned against the church of Canterbury, he proceeded thither immediately he had landed, and prayed, freely shedding tears, at the tomb of Thomas, the blessed bishop. On entering the chapter of the monks, he prostrated himself on the ground, and with the utmost humility entreated pardon; and, at his urgent petition, he, though so great a man, was corporally beaten with rods by all the brethren in succession."
I believe the part in the book was Henry's official reconciliation with the Church as described here: http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-27982064_ITM
I haven't reached the part about Simon de Montfort, but the one in the Welsh trilogy was born in 1208 (Henry III was born in 1207, so, yes, they were nearly the same age), so I would imagine the one in Devil's Brood was his father (1160-1218).
I haven't reached the part about Simon de Montfort, but the one in the Welsh trilogy was born in 1208 (Henry III was born in 1207, so, yes, they were nearly the same age), so I would imagine the one in Devil's Brood was his father (1160-1218).
Oh good - I couldn't imagine the man I so admired in the previous books to be one and the same with this cold cruel man.
Thanks for the information on the penance. I am not a religious person at all, but well understand the power of faith for others, how it can bring comfort and solace. It obviously did for Henry, at least the way this was written.
BTW has anyone else noticed a discrepancy of age for Joanna? In the same year, Eleanor describes her as a 12 year old, and the year when she comes to the Easter court in Winchester, Henry is thinking her as a 10 year old. Not that its a big deal, the result of her actions are the same. Just thought it odd.
This was posted elsewhere, an interview with Penman about this book as well as the new one she'll be starting!
http://loadedquestions.blogspot.com/2008/10/exclusive-interview-loaded-questions.html
Susan
10-12-2008, 02:51 PM
BTW has anyone else noticed a discrepancy of age for Joanna? In the same year, Eleanor describes her as a 12 year old, and the year when she comes to the Easter court in Winchester, Henry is thinking her as a 10 year old. Not that its a big deal, the result of her actions are the same. Just thought it odd.
I usually print out genealogical information when I am reading a book like Devil's Brood so I can get an idea of how old people are. I then keep the info in the book when I am done reading it. I guess I will have to check Time and Chance and see if I have the genealogical info there. If not, I'll print out a new one. Perhaps Henry couldn't keep the ages of his children straight like a stereotypical father!
Susan
10-12-2008, 02:55 PM
Oh good - I couldn't imagine the man I so admired in the previous books to be one and the same with this cold cruel man.
The elder Simon de Monfort was a character in EC's book Daughters of the Grail. He was a leader of the Albigensian Crusade that eliminated the Cathars.
Misfit
10-12-2008, 04:43 PM
The elder Simon de Monfort was a character in EC's book Daughters of the Grail. He was a leader of the Albigensian Crusade that eliminated the Cathars.
Beat me to it, although I recall EC mentioning that the younger Simon from Falls the Shadow was very much like his father.
Interesting interview with SKP, and looking forward to more on this family. Maybe Penman can be the author to make Richard's time in the crusades and his marriage to Beregeria interesting.
Got to sign off now and finish the book 100 or so pages left. You're going to love it when the brothers start sniping at each other, although Richard does get the best lines :D
Susan
10-12-2008, 04:59 PM
Got to sign off now and finish the book 100 or so pages left. You're going to love it when the brothers start sniping at each other, although Richard does get the best lines :D
I can hardly wait! I love it when the family snips at each other in Lion in Winter. I make sure I watch that film once a year.
Interesting interview with SKP, and looking forward to more on this family. Maybe Penman can be the author to make Richard's time in the crusades and his marriage to Beregeria interesting.
Interesting that you say that! I'm sort of on the same page as in all the books I've read I've found Richards time in the crusades to be pretty boring. You'd think that would be an exciting topic but so far I haven't been impressed with the way most novels have dealt with the crusades.
I just read the interview in the link! I'm thrilled with the focus of her next book. I love the way SKP portray's Eleanor so will be happy to read more about her. And I too think Richard gets the best line so will be on pins and needles waiting for the next one! Also, is it just me or did she just tell us at the end of the interview that Lionheart will be the title of her next novel?
Kelly Hewitt
10-12-2008, 06:38 PM
Thank you for posting the link to my interview with Sharon Kay Penman (http://loadedquestions.blogspot.com/2008/10/exclusive-interview-loaded-questions.html)! I had to set down my laptop and dance for joy when Sharon first mentioned to me the fact that she was already at work on another Plantagenet book and that it would still involve Eleanor! I am glad to see that others share my enthusiasm.
Kelly Hewitt
Loaded Questions (http://loadedquestions.blogspot.com/)
Misfit
10-12-2008, 08:41 PM
Interesting that you say that! I'm sort of on the same page as in all the books I've read I've found Richards time in the crusades to be pretty boring. You'd think that would be an exciting topic but so far I haven't been impressed with the way most novels have dealt with the crusades.
I think a big part of it for me is that Beregeria is bordering on the TSTL category, at least in any books on her I've come across. Perhaps Penman can get past that challenge.
Just finished the book and now comes the hard part -- trying to write a review. I was seriously leaning towards titling it "Can we all just get along here", but I thought that might be a bit tacky :p
Kelly, we're glad you joined us and I'm glad to have read the interview with SKP.
I think a big part of it for me is that Beregeria is bordering on the TSTL category, at least in any books on her I've come across.
Just finished the book and now comes the hard part -- trying to write a review. I was seriously leaning towards titling it "Can we all just get along here", but I thought that might be a bit tacky :p.
TSTL?
If you don't use that for your title, consider Eleanor's line from Lion in Winter "all families have their little ups and downs".
Misfit
10-12-2008, 09:32 PM
Ahhh! I just posted the review but I'm tempted now to go back and use it, with your permission of course.
TSTL = too stupid to live. Clearly you don't read much romance do you? :p:)
Telynor
10-12-2008, 10:34 PM
Ahhh! I just posted the review but I'm tempted now to go back and use it, with your permission of course.
TSTL = too stupid to live. Clearly you don't read much romance do you? :p:)
Poor Berengaria! I loved that line out of Here Be Dragons where John thinks that if anyone cut her, she'd bleed pure sugar. And I love the fact that there are hints that there will be more about Joanna, the youngest of Henry and Eleanor's daughters, to come. She and Berengaria had quite a few adventures on their way to the Holy Land -- being shipwrecked, Joanna possibly being married off to Saladin's brother. And it seems that Berengaria did quite a bit of travelling after she was widowed.
For a very good account of the third crusade, I really do recommend Zoe Oldenbourg's work in The Crusades, which has a lot of details that most historians and novelists skip over.
boswellbaxter
10-12-2008, 11:47 PM
From what I've read about the historical Berengaria, she was anything but stupid or sweetly insipid. Elizabeth Hallam in the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes, "She emerges from the sources as an intelligent, pious, and quietly determined person, tenacious in adversity, an active ruler of her lands, well able to gain and use allies and defenders, and strikingly generous to the religious orders even by the standards of her day."
Unfortunately, intelligence, piety, and quiet determination aren't "sexy" qualities, so it's all too easy for historical novelists to dismiss Berengaria as a nonentity, especially in contrast to her more more flamboyant and colorful in-laws.
Speaking of Here Be Dragons, what I think will be fascinating is that this next book will bring it all full circle; to King John's daughter and Llywellyn the Great. It might just give me an excuse (like I need one) to read that book again...
Misfit
10-13-2008, 12:17 AM
From what I've read about the historical Berengaria, she was anything but stupid or sweetly insipid. Elizabeth Hallam in the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes, "She emerges from the sources as an intelligent, pious, and quietly determined person, tenacious in adversity, an active ruler of her lands, well able to gain and use allies and defenders, and strikingly generous to the religious orders even by the standards of her day."
Unfortunately, intelligence, piety, and quiet determination aren't "sexy" qualities, so it's all too easy for historical novelists to dismiss Berengaria as a nonentity, especially in contrast to her more more flamboyant and colorful in-laws.
Hmmm. Perhaps Penman can bring a perspective on her that we've not yet seen in a book.
Misfit
10-13-2008, 12:28 AM
For a very good account of the third crusade, I really do recommend Zoe Oldenbourg's work in The Crusades, which has a lot of details that most historians and novelists skip over.
I'll have to look for that. I started one of ZO's books, World is Not Enough, but bailed on it -- nothing wrong with the writing but I flat out didn't care for the main characters enough to stick with it.
Poor Berengaria! I loved that line out of Here Be Dragons where John thinks that if anyone cut her, she'd bleed pure sugar.
I'll have to watch for that next time I read HBD. As for John, it's going to be a lot of fun in the next book seeing what Penman does with his delicious evilness. I suspect he'll get all the best lines this time - forget Richard :D
Yikes, based on the last chapter or so, I don't think John is quite so evil. I know the story about Richard during the crusades, but I didn't know about these other acts of cruelty in France. John obviously was taught by masters.
Boy is that family screwed up. What I am loving is seeing Geoffrey as a real person, and seeing him playing off everyone against each other. And I love how Penman shows us a sociopath's mind, what Hal is thinking, how he comes up with his assumptions, how his paranoia and low self worth feed into everything he does. I also love seeing into Henry's head, and realizing what a complex man he was.
My only complaint is that because I read ECs Greatest Knight, I know what happens to Hal, so I am not going to be surprised. Ah well, less stress that way
Oh, re Marguerite: EC paints her as a very different character. I'd be curious if anyone knows anything about her based on primary sources.
Forgive my ignorance, but my knowledge of French history really is abysmal: when did France become France? Was it under Napolian? And what were the lands before they became under the control of England (separate contries in their own right, vassal lands of the French king?)
From what I've read about the historical Berengaria, she was anything but stupid or sweetly insipid. Elizabeth Hallam in the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes, "She emerges from the sources as an intelligent, pious, and quietly determined person, tenacious in adversity, an active ruler of her lands, well able to gain and use allies and defenders, and strikingly generous to the religious orders even by the standards of her day."
Unfortunately, intelligence, piety, and quiet determination aren't "sexy" qualities, so it's all too easy for historical novelists to dismiss Berengaria as a nonentity, especially in contrast to her more more flamboyant and colorful in-laws.
Absolutely. That's my impression as well Boswell. King John seems to have been fond of her and visited her after Richard's death. Norah Lofts wrote about her in The Lute Player but I don't recall that much about the novel. I think there has been a general trend for novelists to portray her as a bit wet.
Misfit
10-13-2008, 12:06 PM
Norah Lofts wrote about her in The Lute Player but I don't recall that much about the novel. I think there has been a general trend for novelists to portray her as a bit wet.
I've read The Lute Player. It was a bit dull.
I'll have to look for that. I started one of ZO's books, World is Not Enough, but bailed on it -- nothing wrong with the writing but I flat out didn't care for the main characters enough to stick with it.
I've got that one somewhere in the house. Started it but never got beyond Chapter 1. At the time it didn't grab me but it wasn't a wall banger and I thought it might just be me.
Oh, re Marguerite: EC paints her as a very different character. I'd be curious if anyone knows anything about her based on primary sources.
Very little is known about her and certainly not her personality. She remarried Bela of Hungary in 1186 and died in the Holy land while on pilgrimage in 1196.
I took my own thoughts on her from the psychic researches I use and I didn't look at her personality in depth at that time; it was more of a snapshot. Perhaps French or Hungarian sources might have something on her - particularly the latter if she was their queen for ten years, but I found next to nothing in English.
Telynor
10-13-2008, 03:39 PM
Boy is that family screwed up. What I am loving is seeing Geoffrey as a real person, and seeing him playing off everyone against each other. And I love how Penman shows us a sociopath's mind, what Hal is thinking, how he comes up with his assumptions, how his paranoia and low self worth feed into everything he does. I also love seeing into Henry's head, and realizing what a complex man he was.
I think that most medieval kings and lords would come off as out-and-out psychopaths in our modern age. Richard, most certainly! Talk about an Oedipus complex, the boy had it in spades. Hal I see as a very needy person, with the inability to really think about what his consequences are, and trying to 'buy' the loyalty and affection that he craved from his parents. It must have been hard for him (and all those boys) to have such a controlling father, and a mother that was at turns indifferent and focused on Richard as her favourite. Instead, he seems to be one of those people who remains stuck as a teenager.
That insight into Henry at Thomas Becket's tomb when he goes to do penance -- that was a stroke of brilliance there. And Eleanor coping with isolation for the first time in her life.
I'd love to see someone work up something on Eleanor's grandfather, William the Troubadour.
Misfit
10-13-2008, 04:42 PM
That insight into Henry at Thomas Becket's tomb when he goes to do penance -- that was a stroke of brilliance there. And Eleanor coping with isolation for the first time in her life.
Was that just not amazing? I was just cringing going into the whole thing -- lord not another Becket saga -- but she had me hook line and sinker.
Of all the boys, I think Geoffrey was the most grounded -- possibly due to his marriage to Constance which turned out better than either of them expected it to.
Telynor
10-13-2008, 04:49 PM
Was that just not amazing? I was just cringing going into the whole thing -- lord not another Becket saga -- but she had me hook line and sinker.
Of all the boys, I think Geoffrey was the most grounded -- possibly due to his marriage to Constance which turned out better than either of them expected it to.
And that wedding night sequence for the two of them. That was another wonderfully written bit. Say what you will about Geoffrey, I always thought that he got short shrift from the history books.
Misfit
10-13-2008, 04:59 PM
And that wedding night sequence for the two of them. That was another wonderfully written bit. Say what you will about Geoffrey, I always thought that he got short shrift from the history books.
I loved the wedding night scene as well. Don't know if you've gotten to that part yet but there's a cute little comment about one of their bed sport games that just had me chuckling. I should have written it down (will one of you do that when you get there please?). Something about the nun and the priest :):p:D
Constance matured quite well and had quite a mine field to tread after Geoffrey's accident. Loved the scene with Henry when he came to visit his grandchildren.
I really like how no one is just black and white, there really isn't a evil bad guy (well maybe the Louis and Phillippe :o)
Tanzanite
10-13-2008, 07:10 PM
And that wedding night sequence for the two of them. That was another wonderfully written bit. Say what you will about Geoffrey, I always thought that he got short shrift from the history books.
I always thought so too. It was nice to see their relationship grow and mature - I wonder how accurate Penman's portrayal of the nature of their relationship is. Anyone know? For some reason the scene where Constance is in bed with her second husband (after Geoffrey's death) really stuck in my mind. The thoughts that were going through her head and how she was missing him make me feel so bad for her.
And that wedding night sequence for the two of them. That was another wonderfully written bit. Say what you will about Geoffrey, I always thought that he got short shrift from the history books.
I loved that scene too! All the scenes between Geoffery and Constance were some of my favorite in the whole book!
Constance and Ranulf of Chester hated each other's guts so it seems in history and eventually had their marriage anulled (but not before Ranulf had imprisoned her) - I don't know if that shows up in the novel.
Ranulf then married Clemence de Fougeres and he and his second wife had their hearts buried together at Dieulacres abbey when they died.
Constance married Guy de Thouars and died shortly after giving birth to twin daughters.
Reading about the life of Geoffrey and Constance made me think of Henry and Eleanor; I could almost imagine the first few years of their life together as happy and content.
I'm bogged down a bit, since Geoffrey's death - getting a bit tired of this family. Does anyone else think this could have been edited more? The blow by blow of every fight is starting to get tiresome. Or maybe I am tired, I have been reading this since Wednesday, so it might be good to take a break....
Misfit
10-14-2008, 01:46 PM
I don't know, I loved every minute of it. It never hurts to take a break from a book and then get back into it later. I've done it enough times.
Tanzanite
10-14-2008, 04:00 PM
Reading about the life of Geoffrey and Constance made me think of Henry and Eleanor; I could almost imagine the first few years of their life together as happy and content.
I'm bogged down a bit, since Geoffrey's death - getting a bit tired of this family. Does anyone else think this could have been edited more? The blow by blow of every fight is starting to get tiresome. Or maybe I am tired, I have been reading this since Wednesday, so it might be good to take a break....
I agree that all of the family feuding got a little old, but at the same time, I think it's an integral part of trying to understand what happened.
Constance and Ranulf of Chester hated each other's guts so it seems in history and eventually had their marriage anulled (but not before Ranulf had imprisoned her) - I don't know if that shows up in the novel.
Ranulf then married Clemence de Fougeres and he and his second wife had their hearts buried together at Dieulacres abbey when they died.
Constance married Guy de Thouars and died shortly after giving birth to twin daughters.
Oh no!! The book didn't get to that point but SKP says in the authors note that Constance will be continued in her next book! That makes me sad as I didn't know that piece of History and now I know that Constance, one of my favorite characters, has a tough road ahead of her! :(
I'm bogged down a bit, since Geoffrey's death - getting a bit tired of this family. Does anyone else think this could have been edited more? The blow by blow of every fight is starting to get tiresome. Or maybe I am tired, I have been reading this since Wednesday, so it might be good to take a break....
I loved it all, but like Misfit said, take a break. I took a break about 100 pages away from the end. Sometimes I get so excited to finish a book, esp. a long one like this, that I rush through to the end and don't savor it. So I took a night off and finished it up last night. Loved it! The end is bittersweet and worth it!
Oh no!! The book didn't get to that point but SKP says in the authors note that Constance will be continued in her next book! That makes me sad as I didn't know that piece of History and now I know that Constance, one of my favorite characters, has a tough road ahead of her! :(
Whoops sorry 1Lila1 ! I didn't intend it as a spoiler.:( I suppose I've known all of this stuff as a matter of course for a long time, so I kind of take it for granted. I've always been a Ranulf of Chester fan and not a Constance fan though. I think this boils down to a close friend doing some detailed research work on his patronage of Dieulacres Abbey and finding out how close he and his second wife were and how they seemed to work so well together.
No no, it's not a spoiler! It's just the history! Imagine if noone ever read a book about Anne Boleyn because they already knew the ending, lol! I just loved Constance (at least how she was portrayed here) and am sad that her life turned out so sad. It was heartbreaking enough when Geoffrey died. I knew he died young but SKP made it come alive for me!
Misfit
10-14-2008, 06:16 PM
That's the hard part about talking about books of this sort - let alone writing a review. How much is known history and how much is too much and becomes a spoiler? I know I screwed up when reading the Welsh trilogy and got on the internet and really really spoiled myself. :p:o
It's going to be interesting to see SKP's take on Arthur's disappearance and who "dun" it.
That's the hard part about talking about books of this sort - let alone writing a review. How much is known history and how much is too much and becomes a spoiler? I know I screwed up when reading the Welsh trilogy and got on the internet and really really spoiled myself. :p:o
It's going to be interesting to see SKP's take on Arthur's disappearance and who "dun" it.
You won't see that because it appeared in Here Be Dragons, or was mentioned in passing I think. It happened in 1203, long past Richard's death, so I don't think it'll be covered, unless she overlaps Lionheart and HBD by several years.
I was fascinated to visit the death of Arthur with my Akashic Record consultant when writing The Scarlet Lion and to see who 'dun' it according to that particular source.
boswellbaxter
10-14-2008, 11:51 PM
Sharon Penman herself will be stopping by the site on October 19!
http://www.historicalfictiononline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8031#post8031
Telynor
10-15-2008, 04:54 AM
Oh my.
Finished up DB last night, and just had to sit for a while to take it all in. It's an incredible read, I must say. Review forthcoming, and now I need to go back and reread the previous two books in the set, and then it's back to the Welsh trilogy some time in the future.
I am simply amazed by this one, and just loved how Ms. Penman handled all of these characters so adroitly. Yes, I confess, I am a fan...
Oh yes, the quote is:
"...a game of the novice nun and the lecherous monk."
I whooped when read that, and scared the hell out of the cat, poor boy.
Misfit
10-15-2008, 01:52 PM
Oh yes, the quote is:
"...a game of the novice nun and the lecherous monk."
That's it. My other favorite was when Hal finally showed up to aid in what ever castle they were attacking and Richard zinged him with a sarcastic comment about Hal riding in to save the day.
Tanzanite
10-15-2008, 01:58 PM
One of my favorites was when Henry is trying to understand why Eleanor initially helped their sons in their rebellion and he assumes it is because of Rosamond Clifford and Eleanor says "You are good in bed Harry, but not that good."
Misfit
10-15-2008, 02:12 PM
I really wish I had had some sticky tags while I was reading to mark the pages with my favorite quotes. There were an awful lot of them. :)
Amanda
11-05-2008, 01:38 AM
I got my copy of Devil's Brood today! I will now have to read Time and Chance!
I must say though, the Australian release cover, doesn't grab me like the US one. It is a bit dark, and doesn't really scream out historical fiction, medieval.
http://www.penguin.com.au/lookinside/spotlight.cfm?SBN=9780718154660
And for anyone is Australia that hasn't got a copy yet - Big W (under $22).
Vanessa
11-05-2008, 07:42 AM
I don't know what the cover is going to be in the UK. I can't see one on Amazon, it just says it's not available yet.
diamondlil
11-05-2008, 07:44 AM
Hmmm...doesn't fit with any of the other covers at all.
I don't like the Australian cover at all.
What happens in the UK - and I would assume elsewhere too is that the publishers have a cover briefing meeting where the editor will give the art department a synopsis and an illustrator will be engaged, either in house or contracted out to produce a book cover. I wonder what happened at the briefing meeting for Devil's Brood. It doesn't say medieval historical does it?
Literary horror perhaps? I don't quite know. How odd!
I really like the USA cover.
Misfit
11-08-2008, 02:03 AM
It's way too late and I'm much to tired to comment but puleeease I can't believe they let Harriet review this (http://www.amazon.com/review/R1VCU0IU77PJDM/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&ASIN=0399155260&nodeID=#wasThisHelpful),
The third Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine historical thriller
An historical thriller??????:eek::D:):eek:
The story line digs deep into two obstinate but powerful monarchs who battle in bed and on the throne for the top position.
I am not going there, but Harriet is know to get frisky on occasion.
boswellbaxter
11-08-2008, 02:23 AM
It's way too late and I'm much to tired to comment but puleeease I can't believe they let Harriet review this (http://www.amazon.com/review/R1VCU0IU77PJDM/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&ASIN=0399155260&nodeID=#wasThisHelpful),
An historical thriller??????:eek::D:):eek:
I am not going there, but Harriet is know to get frisky on occasion.
Heck, I gave it a "helpful" vote just for the giggle that "top position" line gave me.
Telynor
11-08-2008, 06:35 AM
Heck, I gave it a "helpful" vote just for the giggle that "top position" line gave me.
Ghh! I just read that review... Somehow, it still didn't scan right.
Misfit
11-08-2008, 12:19 PM
It's going to take a serious amount of will power not to leave a comment on that one. WILL POWER WILL POWER WILL POWER.
I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how she's figuring that the three books are mysteries.:confused::confused:
It's going to take a serious amount of will power not to leave a comment on that one. WILL POWER WILL POWER WILL POWER.
I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how she's figuring that the three books are mysteries.:confused::confused:
I suspect she meant that the books are 'thrilling' and used 'thrill' in the way of meaning an edge of the seat read rather than a mystery. That's how I interpreted it anyway. It's not a bad review, but written in a slightly Janet and John style.
Misfit
11-08-2008, 12:47 PM
I suspect she meant that the books are 'thrilling' and used 'thrill' in the way of meaning an edge of the seat read rather than a mystery. That's how I interpreted it anyway. It's not a bad review, but written in a slightly Janet and John style.
You're right, I wasn't quite awake yet :p:o
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