any historical personages you wish had fiction composed about them

[Kveto from Prague]

in discussion with margaret and others, my love for oscure periods of history and characters got me thinking about emperor frederico II and how such an interesting chacacter has only one novel written about his life. are there any historical personages whom you think would make great subjects for historical novels. you know those true people who had lives almost too amazing to believe. I had a few and wanted to see if anyone can add to the list.

Roger de Flor, the founder of the catalan company, had such a rich life as a medevil swashbuckler throughout the mediteranian in the high middle ages. son of a falconer hes represents a true self made man who rose from very little to command armies.he inspired the catalan epic triranto lo blanco but i dont think anyones brought him to life in fiction.

Marozia of Rome (10th century) is such a powermonger, femme fatale and facinating figure its hard to believe shes been ignored. the papal throne was her plaything for decades and she enthralled men at will, ultimately dieing at the hands of one of her sons.

Pedro Francisco, the greatest american solider of the revolutionary war. his origin is almost too fantastic to believe, kidnapped from portugal and left on a boston pier. plus, george washington called him the greatest american solider.

Jan Zizka, the blind Hussite general who helped the bohemians defeat all of Europe. remember he was blind!

Juraj Janosik, hes been in lots of central european literature but not in english as far as i know. A slovak highwayman, this guy was the real robin hood, a chivalrus robber who gave to the poor, and whats more he actually existed.

Charles XII of sweden, peter the greats arch rival.

Anna Comena, byzantine princess, one of the first serious historical scholars, and full of byzantine ambition.

Adelaide of Italy (10th century), later wife of Otto the great, holy roman Empire. her early life was so full of excitement and intrige, imprisoned in castles several times, escaping from evil hunchback suitors, hiding in haystacks, having an evil mother in law try to claw her eyes out, and eventually marrying an emperor (and having affairs with his brother and son), and of course becoming a saint. she just about encaptulates the Dark ages in one lifetime.

if any of these have had fiction composed about them that you know of id be happy if you let me know. otherwise i think they are just waiting for a good author to imortalize them.

is there anyone that any readers here would like to see historical fiction written about?

[Divia]

Joan of Arc is rarely touched, but maybe cause there is no love story there.

Louisa May Alcott's mother is what I really want to see.

[Alaric]

Aside from my usual answer of Peter the Great, I'd like to see someone write about José de San Martin and Bernardo O'Higgins, the two main leaders in the South American wars of independence. One of the novel ideas I have kicking about in my head is set during those.

[Calgal]

I can't remember their names, but I found the count and countess who built the fabulous hospital in Beaune fascinating and wished to have more info about them than the one or two lines in the guide book. Even that little bit of info made it seem like there is a story worth telling there. If I read French better, I might attempt it myself.

Does anyone know more about this?

Okay, I looked this up, which I should have done before. The Count was Nicolas Rolin, who was chancellor to the Duke of Burgandy. He had three wives. The third, Guigone de Salins (1403-1470) was the one who founded the hospital with him. Rolin has a brief biography in Wikipedia, but Guigone has only a picture.

There is definitely a story there.

[princess garnet]

A HF novel about Anne of Brittany in English. She was its last Duchess.

[michellemoran]

I second keny's Anna Comena. I'd love to see a novel written on her.

[Ariadne]

There's a fairly recent YA novel about Anna Comnena, but none for adults that I know of. (Tracy Barrett's Anna of Byzantium)

Anne of Brittany is the subject of Eleanor Fairburn's Crowned Ermine, which is super rare, unfortunately.

I agree that both of these women would make great subjects. I'll add Sichelgaita of Salerno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichelgaita), which I may have mentioned on the discussion board for medieval Sicily on the old site.

[SonjaMarie]

I think we have a very similar thread about this here:
http://www.historicalfictiononline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280

SM

[donroc]

I will not say because I intend to write about a few more obscure but interesting individuals and would not like it if anyone beat me to the personage.

[alice]

Joan of Arc is rarely touched, but maybe cause there is no love story there.



Have you read the YA novel about Joan by Pauline Chandler? I think, if I remember correctly it was called "Warrior Girl". She came to our Library a few years ago to talk about it to students. As you can imagine, she did loads of research. It was when I was in Public Libraries, not a School one, but I've just remembered it with you mentioning Joan. :)

[Rowan]

I will not say because I intend to write about a few more obscure but interesting individuals and would not like it if anyone beat me to the personage.

But isn't it fair to have more than one book about one individual? Get different interpretations of their lives?

[Kveto from Prague]

There's a fairly recent YA novel about Anna Comnena, but none for adults that I know of. (Tracy Barrett's Anna of Byzantium)

Anne of Brittany is the subject of Eleanor Fairburn's Crowned Ermine, which is super rare, unfortunately.

I agree that both of these women would make great subjects. I'll add Sichelgaita of Salerno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichelgaita), which I may have mentioned on the discussion board for medieval Sicily on the old site.

you might already know but, in Alfred Duggans "count Bohemond" Sigfrieda of Salerno plays a pretty promenent role in the first part of the novel. shes obviously an antagonist toward the main character as shes supporting her son against him, but i think her characterization was correct (from my limited knowledge), but Sigfrieda does deserve her own book.

[Kveto from Prague]

Aside from my usual answer of Peter the Great, I'd like to see someone write about José de San Martin and Bernardo O'Higgins, the two main leaders in the South American wars of independence. One of the novel ideas I have kicking about in my head is set during those.

i doubt peter could be contained in a single novel:-) hes too interesting.

bernardo o higgens would be another interesting one id like to read about in fiction as i know nothing about him.

id add Giuseppe Garabaldi to that list as well. the revolutionary who spent his life in south america before returing home to unify italy in true revolutionary "kingmaker" style. also, added bonus was his amazing wife who accompanied him on all of his adventures.

[princess garnet]

Anne of Brittany is the subject of Eleanor Fairburn's Crowned Ermine, which is super rare, unfortunately.
Thanks! I did read a biog about her written for YA when I was in grade school. I don't remember the title though.
Anne of Brittany does appear in Plaidy's Mary, Queen of France in the years prior to Princess Mary Tudor's arrival in France.

[Lady Kippen]

I'd love to see something on Bess of Hardwick. I know she's part of Philippa Gregory's new novel but I'd like to see something that revolves around her life.

[annis]

Mark Twain wrote a good novel about Joan of Arc- not in his usual style I know, but apparently he was fascinated by her story. He spent twelve years researching the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Joan-Arc-Mark-Twain/dp/0898702682

Just remembered that Jane recently reviewed a novel about Joan of Arc:
http://www.historicalfictiononline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344

[donroc]

But isn't it fair to have more than one book about one individual? Get different interpretations of their lives?


Only after I have written the first. :D

[Ludmilla]

Stilicho would be an interesting subject. He was an ancillary character in Breem's Eagle in the Snow, but I don't know that much has been written about him (compared to Belisarius and Justinian's contemporaries for example).

[Kveto from Prague]

Stilicho would be an interesting subject. He was an ancillary character in Breem's Eagle in the Snow, but I don't know that much has been written about him (compared to Belisarius and Justinian's contemporaries for example).


Ludmilla, great one. id be up for Stilicho, too.

[Ariadne]

you might already know but, in Alfred Duggans "count Bohemond" Sigfrieda of Salerno plays a pretty promenent role in the first part of the novel. shes obviously an antagonist toward the main character as shes supporting her son against him, but i think her characterization was correct (from my limited knowledge), but Sigfrieda does deserve her own book.

Thanks Keny, that's good to know. I have a copy of Count Bohemond but haven't gotten to it yet.

[annis]

Stilicho appears in the first part of William Napier's book "Attila" aka "The Scourge of God" (the first in a trilogy). It uses the old premise that Attlila was in his youth a hostage at the Western Roman Empire's capital of Ravenna under the guardianship of Stilicho.

Whether Attila ever was a hostage or not is open to debate as there is no extant evidence to prove he was, but it an old story which has been repeated often enough to become accepted as fact.
Certainly Attila's adversary Aetius was a hostage with the Huns.

Stilicho is a fscinating man who certainly deserves his own novel.

[chuck]

So few books about Charelmagne and Cnute

[annis]

Here's an old one for you, Chuck.

"The Ward of King Canute; a romance of the Danish conquest" (1903) by Ottilie A. Liljencrantz

It begins on the eve of a fierce battle between Danish invaders led by Canute and English forces led by Edmund Ironside.

Available to read free online at Project Gutenberg
http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext02/wkcnt10.htm

[chuck]

As always Annis thank you very much...I will check it out.....

[donroc]

Lidia Litvak would be a good one. I know a play had been written about her in the USSR. I know of no novel.

Who was she?

She was and is the all time top female fighter ace of all wars with 15 aerial victories for the USSR during WWII and known as The White Rose of Stalingrad.

Another novel might be written about the "Night Witches", which is what the Germans called the Soviet female fliers during WWII.

No computerized guns in those days.

[annis]

The Night Witches feature in Robert Denny's 1992 novel "Night Run", the story of an American pilot who manages to land his damaged plane in Soviet territory and joins the Red Air Force whle waiting for a chance to rejoin American forces.

The amazing thing is that they flew wood and canvas bi-planes designed in the 1920s!

There's a relatively recent NF book out about the Night Witches
"Night Witches: the amazing story of Russia's women pilots in World War II"
by Bruce Myles.
http://www.amazon.com/Night-Witches-Amazing-Russias-Pilots/dp/0897332881

[eclecticreader10]

I think someone should write about Anne Boleyn because no one ever writes about her.

[SonjaMarie]

I think someone should write about Anne Boleyn because no one ever writes about her.

Hahaha funny!

SM

[donroc]

Annis, thank you.

If you Google Jan Safarik, you will find a list of all aces of all wars on his web site, and the section on the USSR's fighter aces has info and photos of Litvak and other women. She flew a modern fighter, a Yak, I believe.

[boswellbaxter]

I think someone should write about Anne Boleyn because no one ever writes about her.

Yeah, and why hasn't anyone written anything about her sister Mary?

[chuck]

Stilicho appears in the first part of William Napier's book "Attila" aka "The Scourge of God" (the first in a trilogy). It uses the old premise that Attlila was in his youth a hostage at the Western Roman Empire's capital of Ravenna under the guardianship of Stilicho.

Whether Attila ever was a hostage or not is open to debate as there is no extant evidence to prove he was, but it an old story which has been repeated often enough to become accepted as fact.
Certainly Attila's adversary Aetius was a hostage with the Huns.

Stilicho is a fscinating man who certainly deserves his own novel.

Stilicho had a brief and important passage in a early novel of Jack Whyte's Camulod Novels...I too; concur add a novel about Stilicho and I'll add another about the tragic Magnus Maximus....a favorite era of mine......

[annis]

If you Google Jan Safarik, you will find a list of all aces of all wars on his web site, and the section on the USSR's fighter aces has info and photos of Litvak and other women. She flew a modern fighter, a Yak, I believe.

Wow, an amazing amount of info on Jan Safarik's site. He must be the ultimate train ( make that plane) spotter!

[donroc]

Yes, Safarak has a great site, and he cites many sources.

Aside from the Soviet women, I have been interested in the Jewish fighter aces of WWI&II. The awardee of the Blue Max in WWI is covered and aces of the Battle of Britain including "Lucky" Tuck.


The late historian for the U.S. Fighter Aces Association, Col. Ray Toliver, was a dear friend who wrote books about the U.S. and Luftwaffe aces of WWII. I met many at his home including Tuck, Adolf Galland, and Jim Brooks who wed the singer "Liltin'" Martha Tilton.

[diamondlil]

I think someone should write about Anne Boleyn because no one ever writes about her.


Or her daughter. What's her name again? You know the one!

[diamondlil]

Lidia Litvak would be a good one. I know a play had been written about her in the USSR. I know of no novel.

Who was she?

She was and is the all time top female fighter ace of all wars with 15 aerial victories for the USSR during WWII and known as The White Rose of Stalingrad.

Another novel might be written about the "Night Witches", which is what the Germans called the Soviet female fliers during WWII.

No computerized guns in those days.


I would totally love to read about this person!

[donroc]

I would totally love to read about this person!

Aside from the Jan Safarik site, if you Google Lydia Litvak, you will find plenty of information about her, even in Wikipedia.

Our ladies who wanted to fly during WWII were fortunate to make it into the WASPS.

Budnova was another female Soviet fighter ace with 11 victories.

[Volgadon]

Yes, Safarak has a great site, and he cites many sources.

Aside from the Soviet women, I have been interested in the Jewish fighter aces of WWI&II. The awardee of the Blue Max in WWI is covered and aces of the Battle of Britain including "Lucky" Tuck.


The late historian for the U.S. Fighter Aces Association, Col. Ray Toliver, was a dear friend who wrote books about the U.S. and Luftwaffe aces of WWII. I met many at his home including Tuck, Adolf Galland, and Jim Brooks who wed the singer "Liltin'" Martha Tilton.

There was an interesting documentary aired on Israel's Channel 1 about female Jewish veterans from WW2. The 1st episode was about veterans of the Red Army and one of them would pick up lend-lease planes in Alaska and fly them over to Russia.

[Volgadon]

Here are some pics of Litvak and friends.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak.jpg


http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/litvak1.jpg

She did fly yaks. This site is in Russian, but shows her aircraft. http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/litvak.html

[Kveto from Prague]

Annis, thank you.

If you Google Jan Safarik, you will find a list of all aces of all wars on his web site, and the section on the USSR's fighter aces has info and photos of Litvak and other women. She flew a modern fighter, a Yak, I believe.

heres the site.
http://aces.safarikovi.org/

thanks Donroc, for pointing out this interesting and informative site. made by my fellow countryman im proud to notice.

i think there are a lot of interesting stories about ariel aces to be told. the czechoslovak pilots who flew for the RAF during the war are a popular topic here. also tragic stories, as their familes left here were tossed in concentration camps. then when they came home and the communists came to power, these pilots were often imprisoned as they had visited the "evil" west.

im sure a lot of good stories to be told.

but im guessing you arent writing a book on Litvakova, otherwise you'd be letting us in on one of your secrets:-)

[annis]

In England Giles Whittell recently published an interesting book, called
"Spitfire Women" (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article2792145.ece) telling the forgotten story of the women who ferried Spitfires around the country, freeing up the RAF pilots for combat.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-481464/Silk-stocking-Spitfires-The-dark-reality-girls-flew-dangerous-wartime-missions.html

http://www.forum.militaryltd.com/world-war-ii/m41430-spitfire-women.htm

This book led to a campaign to have these women recognised for their work during the war:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3404061.ece

[annis]

Keny. just happened upon an old book, reprinted in 2003, about the rule of Charles XII of Sweden (Eng. translation from th original Swedish)

"The Charles Men", by Verner von Heidenstam
http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Men-Verner-Von-Heidenstam/dp/1410204766

[Kveto from Prague]

cheers, annis. ive been interested in him ever since i read an old biography of peter the great. the two of them were about as close to the idea of arch-rivals as you can get.

[annis]

Keny, I discovered a wonderful sounding set of novels by Estonian author Karl Ristikivi- only problem, they're in Estonian! What a shame they have never been translated into English-- not that I can see, anyway.

http://www.lituanus.org/1970/70_2_03.htm

What caught my eye was the fact that the third book in the series , "Riders of Death" is about Roger de Flor and the Grand Catalan Company. I'd love to read "Burning Banner", the one about Conradin, last Duke of Swabia as well.
Maybe one day we'll see them in English.

[Rowan]

I'd like to see some HF on Cartimandua. I ordered a book today about her from Amazon, but I have a sneaking suspicion it's non-fiction.

[Carla]

I'd like to see some HF on Cartimandua. I ordered a book today about her from Amazon, but I have a sneaking suspicion it's non-fiction.
Ha! If I ever write anything in Roman-invasion-era Britain, I'll do Cartimandua. She must have been quite a lady, but she tends to get a bad press in novels about Boudica.
What's the book you've ordered?

[Rowan]

Cartimandua: Queen of the Brigantes (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075244705X)

[Carla]

Yes, I agree that's non-fiction. Though Cartimandua's life strikes me as one of those where a straight historical biography could be as exciting as many a novel. Let me know what it's like.

[Ludmilla]

A lot has been written about Augustus and the Roman Empire, but I think mainly from a male perspective. After finally finishing I, Claudius, I think a novel from Livia's point of view would make an excellent and refreshingly different kind of story.

[sweetpotatoboy]

A lot has been written about Augustus and the Roman Empire, but I think mainly from a male perspective. After finally finishing I, Claudius, I think a novel from Livia's point of view would make an excellent and refreshingly different kind of story.

That sounds a great idea. I know there has been at least one biography of Livia but no novel that I know of.

[Andromeda_Organa]

Philippa of Hainault and Joan of Navarre.

[annis]

I know there has been at least one biography of Livia but no novel that I know of.

There is a novel just out about Livia, though it may not yet be available outside Australia
Luke Devenish (http://www.lukedevenish.com/Den%20of%20Wolves.html), "Den of Wolves" (http://www.independentweekly.com.au/news/local/news/entertainment/book-review-empress-of-rome-den-of-wolves-luke-devenish/1269813.aspx)
It's the first in Devenish's proposed "Empress of Rome" series, telling the story of the Julio-Claudian dynasty from the POV of the women involved.

[annis]

Posted by Rowan
I'd like to see some HF on Cartimandua

Cartimandua's story is the basis of Barbara Erskine's time-slip "Daughters of Fire" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Daughters-Fire-Barbara-Erskine/dp/0007174276) if you enjoy that type of book.

I'd love to read a version of her story written by Carla.

[annis]

keny, if you're there, I have just come across a novel featuring the Grand Catalan Company, though the story begins just after Sir Roger de Flor's murder at the hands of the Byzantines.
I've reviwed it here;
http://www.historicalfictiononline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13442#post13442

[Kveto from Prague]

hi annis, thanks for the tip. ill look into it. another one for my xmas list. im currently trying to read one of andersens viking tales. (trying since work keeps getting in the way.)

(just got my copy of falcon of palermo. looking forward to finding time to read it, as well)

take care

[SonjaMarie]

Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra. I did find one but it's too expensive for me.

SM

[annis]

Was that Judith Weingarten's "The Chronicle of Zenobia: Rebel Queen"? (http://www.zenobia.tv/site)

Elizabeth Garwood Haley has also written a book about Zenobia as part of her "Warrior Queens" series, called "Zenobia" (http://www.amazon.com/Zenobia-Warrior-Queen-Elizabeth-Garwood/dp/0965972135), which might be a bit cheaper.

[sweetpotatoboy]

There is a novel just out about Livia, though it may not yet be available outside Australia
It's the first in Devenish's proposed "Empress of Rome" series, telling the story of the Julio-Claudian dynasty from the POV of the women involved.

This sounds like a potentially very interesting series. I see it's possible to get hold of the first book here, but quite expensive.

[SonjaMarie]

Was that Judith Weingarten's "The Chronicle of Zenobia: Rebel Queen"? (http://www.zenobia.tv/site)

Elizabeth Garwood Haley has also written a book about Zenobia as part of her "Warrior Queens" series, called "Zenobia" (http://www.amazon.com/Zenobia-Warrior-Queen-Elizabeth-Garwood/dp/0965972135), which might be a bit cheaper.

Yup it was Judith's book I came across, I'll check out the other link though, thanks!

SM

[Andromeda_Organa]

I'd like to see fiction on Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Carla]

Cartimandua's story is the basis of Barbara Erskine's time-slip "Daughters of Fire" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Daughters-Fire-Barbara-Erskine/dp/0007174276) if you enjoy that type of book.

I'd love to read a version of her story written by Carla.

I missed Daughters of Fire because I don't generally get on with time-slip (I always get more interested in one narrative and end up skimming the other one), but as it's about Cartimandua I may give it a try. Thanks for the tip!

[Carla]

Yup it was Judith's book I came across, I'll check out the other link though, thanks!

SM

I have a review copy of Judith Weingarten's Chronicle of Zenobia: The Rebel Queen. I'm not a member of any of the book swap club things, but I'll happily give it away to a good home in exchange for the postage. If interested, PM or email me.

[gyrehead]

Now this is a topic near and dear to my heart!

I'd love to see someone who actually knows how to research and how to write (like say Colleen McCullough) a book about the various Cleopatras who came before VII. While the last Cleopatra who ruled Egypt was famously interesting, her predecessors were as much if not moreso. From the first who was the daughter of Antiochos III to second and third who ere murderous rivals and mother and daughter. To the three who were sent off to the Seleucid court and wreaked mayhem that defied even Shakespeare to get a good enough grasp to write a play about them.

A good strong, well written fact based novel on any of the Valide sultanas. I enjoyed Barbara Chase-Riboud's book but since then what I have read is horrible and it seems you either have authors taking way too much license (And in the process getting facts wrong) or you have them treating it like they sat through too many renditions of Mozart's Die Entführung aus dem Serail: stereotypical eunuchs as villains etc. Even just a good strong novel about the Turkish empire would be nice. One that neither portrays them as the depraved cruel opponents of Christianity or the revisionist reactionary attempt to be politically correct and make all Christians cruel, bigoted hypocrites. (I've read Jason Goodwin's works and like them but he goes a bit farther astray from the intrigues of the Ottoman court to acheive what I'm hoping for in this niche).

As I've really, really enjoyed Deana Raybourn's series to date, I think someone with her skills should do a thriller/mystery series in New York's Gilded Age. With the right deft hand and well-researched approach, there is sucha vast realm to tap into. But it would have to be clever and well written. Or Carr could return to the world of the Alienist.

Caterina Sforza. The woman who, when presented her captive children by the besieging army, stood on her battlements, lifted her skirt to show from where she could easily produce more. Locked wills and arms with the likes of the Borgias, the della Roveres. Fascinating woman who married several times and lived a violent and vibrant life.

That's it for now. But I have tons!

[Margaret]

With our current economic situation unpleasantly reminiscent of the Gilded Age, that period should be due for a fictional renaissance.

[annis]

i've been stuck in the eleveth century lately, and came across a story which I think would have great potential for a novel, that of Gunnhild, one of King Harold Godwinson's daughters by Edith Swan-neck.

Gunnhild, was a nun at Wilton. She may have fled there after the defeat at the Battle of Hastings, but more likely she had been sent there originally to be educated as her aunt, King Edward the Confessor's wife Edith, had been. Initially she remained there as a refugee from the Normans, using the veil as her protection. With her was Edith, Edgar Atheling's niece, later to be the wife of King Henry I of England. Gunnhild may have sought refuge from the Normans, but later they seem to have used the nunnery as a prison to prevent her from being involved in any threat to their power. The threat and controversy did in fact arise, but from a Breton rather than an English source. Alan the Red (of Brittany), Earl of Richmond, abducted Gunnhild in August 1093.

Alan had been given lands that had belonged to Edith Swan Neck. Alan must have felt that, being married, though maybe only in the hand fast manner, to Edith's daughter, would help him gain the co-operation of the locals. Gunnhild seemed happy with the arrangement. Whilst living with Alan the Red she defied the attempts of Anslem, Archbishop of Canterbury, to get her to go back to the nunnery, saying that she had never formally taken the veil. Anslem later found out that she had in fact taken vows. Meantime Alan the Red had died and Gunnhild had taken up with his brother and successor, Alan the Black! Despite the strong terms he used in trying yet again to unsuccessfully get Gunnhild to return to being a nun, Anslem remained very respectful acknowledging her noble and royal lineage.

[MLE]

After reading the wik link on renaissance artist Sofronisba Anguissola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofonisba_Anguissola), it seems this lady would make an excellent protagonist for some ambitious writer. And it allows for romance and a happy ending, too!

[annis]

Yes, that thought occurred to me as well :) She led such an unusually independent life for the times.

I was intrigued by the Carthiginian connection
"Over four generations, the Anguissola family had a strong connection to ancient Carthaginian history and they named their offspring after the great general Hannibal, thus the first daughter was named after the tragic Carthaginian figure Sophonisba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophonisba)". (Wiki)

[Lauryn]

Caterina Sforza. The woman who, when presented her captive children by the besieging army, stood on her battlements, lifted her skirt to show from where she could easily produce more. Locked wills and arms with the likes of the Borgias, the della Roveres. Fascinating woman who married several times and lived a violent and vibrant life.

I always found that this story made me think of John Marshal, who (while not necessarily showing his equipment) told King Stephen he had the hammer and anvils to beget more and better sons than the young boy Stephen held hostage.

Elizabeth Chadwick's A Place Beyond Courage does a pretty even-handed job of rehabilitating him, I thought. And I would definitely enjoy reading more on Caterina Sforza.

[zsigandr]

I personally would be interested in something written from the point of view of Louis XI of France. Everyone, I am sure, has heard of the "spider king", but I would like to see something written from his point of view and how it must have been for his 3 wives (Margaret of Scotland, Charlotte of Savoy, and Catherine D'Mailly) to live with such a man.

[Ariadne]

Regarding Sofonisba Anguissola, I'd posted this historical novel deal on my blog in early '08 (based on a note in Publishers Weekly). I don't know when the novel will appear.

Lynn Cullen's first two historical novels (for adults; she's also written I Am Rembrandt's Daughter for YAs) were sold to Peternelle van Arsdale at Putnam via agent Emma Sweeney. The first of these, The Black Legend, is a biographical novel of Sofonisba Anguissola (ca 1532-1625), an Italian mannerist painter who joined the Spanish court of Felipe II (the husband of England's Mary I).

[EC2]

I always found that this story made me think of John Marshal, who (while not necessarily showing his equipment) told King Stephen he had the hammer and anvils to beget more and better sons than the young boy Stephen held hostage.

Elizabeth Chadwick's A Place Beyond Courage does a pretty even-handed job of rehabilitating him, I thought.

I found that speech absolutely fascinating for many reasons because there is so much more to those few simple words than meets the casual reader's eye.
It's only reported in one source - The Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal. This was a massive poem glorifying the family and that speech was designed to show John's coolness under fire. The cojones of the stock from which the Marshal's were sprung. It was never a villification in their eyes.
The anvil and the hammer are two of the symbols of a Marshal - along with the pincers. A Marescallus was a horse master and a smith. So the comment was a pun on his day job and a great play on words for a writer to use as an example.
Children being forged from a fire is a common motif in the medieval period and those listening would have well understood the common parlance.
John Marshal was in charge of the royal whores and the association of male regenerative equipment is close to the subject. Stephen knew John's job brought him into association with the prostitutes. The latter is perhas a slightly lesser point than the others, but it all adds up to one speech saying a heck of a lot more than appears on the surface.
It's interesting too, to see how chirpy and confident and eager to play games with grown men, little William was (in the full expectation these men would do so) - to say he was 'supposedly' so undervalued.

[Madeleine]

I always found that this story made me think of John Marshal, who (while not necessarily showing his equipment) told King Stephen he had the hammer and anvils to beget more and better sons than the young boy Stephen held hostage.
.

yes I thought the same thing when I read that post!:D

[LoveHistory]

Has anything been written from the perspective of Mary I of England?

[chuck]

Wat Tyler's Rebellion...Walter "Wat Tyler has always intrigued me....I have not come across him and his Rebellion in a work of historical fiction....NF yes and A mention of him in the hilarious "Black Adder"....ie....somebody asks the Adder for the afternoon off,...Adder replies" Who do you think you are Wat Tyler?" "You can have the afternoon off when you die" .....Anyway I wish somebody would tell the story behind Wat's Tyler's Rebellion.....

[annis]

Posted by LoveHistory
Has anything been written from the perspective of Mary I of England?

Suzannah Dunn has a recent novel out about Mary 1 called "The Queen's Sorrow" (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/suzannah-dunn/queen-s-sorrow.htm)
I haven't read it myself, so don't know what it's like-- I think it's had a bit of a mixed reception.

[boswellbaxter]

Has anything been written from the perspective of Mary I of England?

Jean Plaidy has written about her, and there's also a novel by Hilda Lewis called I Am Mary Tudor. I've read the Plaidy but not the Lewis.

[Ariadne]

Julianne Lee's Her Mother's Daughter: A Novel of Queen Mary Tudor will be out at the end of this year.

[Amanda]

Posted by LoveHistory


Suzannah Dunn has a recent novel out about Mary 1 called "The Queen's Sorrow" (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/suzannah-dunn/queen-s-sorrow.htm)
I haven't read it myself, so don't know what it's like-- I think it's had a bit of a mixed reception.

As much as the back cover blurb makes it sound like this book is about Mary I, it really isn't. It is just set in London during her reign. She does make a few appearances. It is written from the POV of a member of Philip's Spanish entourage.

There are three books in the Hilda Lewis series about her. All of which I have on my shelves...unread though.

[annis]

That's a bit annoying. The advertising for the book is quite deceptive- anything I've seen about it seems to indicate that it's about Mary herself.

What are the titles of the Hilda Lewis books, Amanda? It can be really hard to get synopses of older books, though I guessing that the one called "I Am Mary Tudor" might be one of them.

[Amanda]

Hilda Lewis's Mary Tudor books:

I am Mary Tudor
Mary the Queen
Bloody Mary

[diamondlil]

Wat Tyler's Rebellion...Walter "Wat Tyler has always intrigued me....I have not come across him and his Rebellion in a work of historical fiction....NF yes and A mention of him in the hilarious "Black Adder"....ie....somebody asks the Adder for the afternoon off,...Adder replies" Who do you think you are Wat Tyler?" "You can have the afternoon off when you die" .....Anyway I wish somebody would tell the story behind Wat's Tyler's Rebellion.....

I've seen him mentioned before in HF, but I certainly don't recall any books where he was the main character.

[gyrehead]

I always found that this story made me think of John Marshal, who (while not necessarily showing his equipment) told King Stephen he had the hammer and anvils to beget more and better sons than the young boy Stephen held hostage.

I suspect that Marshal's fame in western Europe had a lot of people borrowing in some form or another. I doubt Caterina was the first or the last. And I've seen historical fiction writers use it for other characters that I 'm pretty sure have no basis whatsoever. Still waggling your pudenda is a unique reading of the lines and I think that is what interested me the most. The raucous and ribald delivery for what we today often think of as a prudish and straight-laced time. I mean even today the mainstream media goes gaga over a panty-less crotch split limo exiting crawl. Throw in the murder and mayhem and matrimonial madness that was Caterina and she kind of steals a bit of Marshal's thunder for me in terms of interest even if he did coin the phrase. I really think CW needs to consider Caterina as a future project! :p

[cw gortner]

I really think CW needs to consider Caterina as a future project! :p

I can't confirm anything at the moment, but I will say this much: she's most definitely under consideration.;)

[gyrehead]

Now be careful with vague possiblities. Otherwise I'll start posting a list of wants every month! Way too many pedigreed ladies of interest just in the Italian courts alone!

[cw gortner]

There's a novel by Pamela Marchand, too, about Joan, called 'An Army of Angels.' I haven't read it but it's on my shelf; the cover was very pretty. I'm a sucker for blue foil . . .

As for the pedigreed ladies of the Italian court, well, I'm always open to suggestions. I honestly can't say much more about Caterina Sforza at this point, but as soon as I can, I promise I will!:D

[gyrehead]

There's a novel by Pamela Marchand, too, about Joan, called 'An Army of Angels.' I haven't read it but it's on my shelf; the cover was very pretty. I'm a sucker for blue foil . . .

As for the pedigreed ladies of the Italian court, well, I'm always open to suggestions. I honestly can't say much more about Caterina Sforza at this point, but as soon as I can, I promise I will!:D

The Gonzagas had a few. And I've always wondered about Bianca Visconti who married Francesco Sforza. Not much but in the right hands, the story could be great. And there are Orsinis, Colonnas, and a couple of Carafas and Pignatellis who were interesting. Going back further, MaroziaI and II are both fascinating and haven't really been done justice that I have seen. Matilda of Tuscany is another.

Shifting gears a bit, considering the still popular focus on ancient history, there were some interesting Persian queens. Parysatis comes to mind. I think in terms of females, the ancient world gets ignored except for Cleopatra VII and the occasional Zenobia and Hatshepsut book.

[Chatterbox]

Suzannah Dunn's book about Mary is downright bad -- a wallbanger, to quote Misfit. The Lewis books, on the other hand, are quite good. She also plays a key role in Mary Luke's book about Katherine Parr (the two were schoolmates).

My primary interest right now is in a woman who lived during the Wars of the Roses and played a significant role, but never seems to have featured in any HF except as a very peripheral character. More long-term, I'd love to find a way to write about some significant cultural figures in Renaissance Italy (second half of 15th century) and that's all I'll say!

Marge Piercy's book about women in WW2, Gone to Soldiers, includes a character who is an aviatrix (as they used to call 'em).

Someone mentioned Christine de Pisan the other day; she has already been on my shortlist.

The people who pique my curiosity are those who kind of float between cultures -- think the Spaniards pre-Reconquista, the Normans in Sicily, the Byzantine Greeks who fled after the Ottoman conquest, the 'wild geese' (Celtic Catholics) who migrated to Europe in the 17th & 18th centuries. (I recall one Spanish or Portuguese general with an Irish surname who fought Napoleon's invaders alongside the Duke of Wellington -- talk about an odd match!

[boswellbaxter]

My primary interest right now is in a woman who lived during the Wars of the Roses and played a significant role, but never seems to have featured in any HF except as a very peripheral character.


Now you've got me curious!

Speaking of the Wars of the Roses, I'm in the revision stages of a novel about Katherine Woodville and Harry, Duke of Buckingham.

[annis]

Posted by Chatterbox
--the 'wild geese' (Celtic Catholics) who migrated to Europe in the 17th & 18th centuries.

Ariadne reviewed an older novel called "Wild Geese" by Irish author Eliis Dillon on her Reading the Past blog last month which might fit the bill- I put it on my "to be tracked down sometime" list
http://readingthepast.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html

[annis]

Posted by Gyrehead
Still waggling your pudenda is a unique reading of the lines and I think that is what interested me the most.

That was an unusual gesture. Waving a bare ah (probably not allowed to say that!) rear at the enemy (mooning) has always been a traditional male gesture of contempt, but women tended to be less exhibitionist :)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3524879082_00de4aa82b.jpg

[SonjaMarie]

Count Cagliostro, he sounds like a fascinating man with an equally fascinating life.

SM

[annis]

King Manfred of Sicily, a son of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II. This tragic hero took my fancy after I read Martin Davies' novel "Unicorn Road (http://www.HistoricalNovels.info/Unicorn-Road.html)". He's another one of the many fascinating figures from medieval Sicily who seem to have become lost in time.

[Chatterbox]

Interestingly... Just got Vanora Bennett's latest about Catherine de Valois. Skimming through the pages it seems as if Christine de Pisan (aka de Pizan) plays a role in it -- I seem to remember she was one of the characters a few people had mentioned wishing to see in a book.

[emr]

Eleanor of England, daughter of Henry II, married to Alfonso VIII of Castilla.
I have Raquel, the Jewess of Toledo by Lion Feuchtwanger in my TBR pile forever but I'd like to see something more personal about her, not only about her husband's mistress. She died only one month after him which in my book counts for a loving and grieving wife.

[Chatterbox]

Speaking of English princesses marrying Iberian kings...

How about something focusing on Philippa, daughter of John of Gaunt, who married the king of Portugal and was the mother of (along with many other children) Henry the Navigator? She lived in fascinating times in England and Henry would make a great additional character.

[rex icelingas]

Vortigern is a major one,given his influence on post Roman Britain Im very suprised not more has been done individually about him

The Lord Rhys/Rhys ap Gruffudd,Prince of Deheubarth has a very interesting story especially his involvemnt with Henry II,would love perhaps EC or Sharon Penman to have a go here!

Shapur I,a novel written from the Sassanid point of view,there are a few books dealing with Roman incursions into Persia perhaps one from the other side?

Gwenllian ferch Gruffudd ap Cynan could be turned into a very capable romantic adventure

Maelgwn Hir,second only to Arthur in the number of times hes mentioned in Welsh Historical texts but yet no books about one of the most interesting characters of the period of late antiquity

Zenobia of Palmyra
Cadwallon of Gwynedd
Magnus Maximus
Anthemius
plenty more..

[Carla]

In the historical note in Twilight of Avalon, author Anna Elliott says that her secondary character Madoc of Gwynedd is loosely based on Maelgwn. (I haven't read the rest of the book yet - I always start with the historical note.)

Zenobia of Palmyra features in Judith Weingarten's novel The Rebel Queen (review here: http://www.carlanayland.org/reviews/zenobia_rebel_queen.htm), although she doesn't appear until halfway through.

Gwenllian ferch Gruffuyd ab Cynan - is she the one who was killed at Kidwelly around the time of the Stephen/Matilda civil war? You're right, it does seem extraordinary that she hasn't become as well established a literary figure as Boudica.

[Lauryn]

I personally would be interested in something written from the point of view of Louis XI of France. Everyone, I am sure, has heard of the "spider king", but I would like to see something written from his point of view and how it must have been for his 3 wives (Margaret of Scotland, Charlotte of Savoy, and Catherine D'Mailly) to live with such a man.

I have an older book on my shelf, The Spider King, by Lawrence Schoonover, copyright 1954. A little pedantic, but interesting, especially when read back-to-back with material dealing with Charles the Bold, of Burgundy. I don't know how available it is though - I know nothing at all about Schoonover.

[Chatterbox]

And one more to throw out there -- came across this woman in my research into the Mowbray family. In all the centuries that there has been an "Earl Marshal" in the English nobility, there was one period (abt 20 years) where the office was discharged by a woman! She was the daughter of Thomas of Brotherton, half-brother to Edward II. Her brother predeceased her, and so the Norfolk title was passed through her, to her daughter and the latter's husband, a Mowbray. But for about 20 years, until 1377, I seem to recall, Margaret herself held the office of Marshal of England. Quite amazing! She seems also to have led a lively private life; she fled to Europe in pursuit of her lover; she (or her husband) was trying to get a divorce when he conveniently died. She later married her lover. None of her sons survived; only daughters.

[EC2]

And one more to throw out there -- came across this woman in my research into the Mowbray family. In all the centuries that there has been an "Earl Marshal" in the English nobility, there was one period (abt 20 years) where the office was discharged by a woman! She was the daughter of Thomas of Brotherton, half-brother to Edward II. Her brother predeceased her, and so the Norfolk title was passed through her, to her daughter and the latter's husband, a Mowbray. But for about 20 years, until 1377, I seem to recall, Margaret herself held the office of Marshal of England. Quite amazing! She seems also to have led a lively private life; she fled to Europe in pursuit of her lover; she (or her husband) was trying to get a divorce when he conveniently died. She later married her lover. None of her sons survived; only daughters.

She wasn't the first female Earl Marshal of England though. Mahelt(Matilda) Marshal (about whose earlier life I am writing), was Marshal of England for two years from 1246-1248. When her last brother died, Mahelt inherited the Marshal's rod and passed it on to her son Roger Bigod III when she died....

[Chatterbox]

Cool! For some reason, her name didn't come up on whatever piece of research threw up the tidbit on Margaret. Will look forward to your book! I'm always fascinated by evidence that comes up, again and again, of strong women exerting power in this era. It certainly wouldn't have been the norm, and it may have provoked wrath on the part of many (Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabel of Valois, wife to Edward II), but it happened...

[Doug Bradshaw]

Hans Bethe.

[theredsoldier]

Gavrilo Princip - now THAT could be interesting!

[annis]

Posted by MLE earlier this year
After reading the wik link on renaissance artist Sofronisba Anguissola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofonisba_Anguissola), it seems this lady would make an excellent protagonist for some ambitious writer. And it allows for romance and a happy ending, too!


Just noticed on a list of books fortcoming for March next year, this one:
Lynn Cullen, "The Creation of Eve", Putnam (set in the 16th-c Spanish court, based on the life story of Sofronisba Anguissola, the first renowned female portraitist of the Renaissance)

[MLE]

I'll probably buy that one!

[Andromeda_Organa]

Now this is a topic near and dear to my heart!

I'd love to see someone who actually knows how to research and how to write (like say Colleen McCullough) a book about the various Cleopatras who came before VII. While the last Cleopatra who ruled Egypt was famously interesting, her predecessors were as much if not moreso. From the first who was the daughter of Antiochos III to second and third who ere murderous rivals and mother and daughter. To the three who were sent off to the Seleucid court and wreaked mayhem that defied even Shakespeare to get a good enough grasp to write a play about them.



Me too! I'm writing an alternative history about Cleopatra VII right now, and the other Cleopatras are fascinating me!

[Kveto from Prague]

this one would be fun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah_Harlan

Josiah Harlan, the American who travelled to Afganistan and made himself the Prince of Ghor. The inspiration for Kiplings "Man who would be King."

[Kveto from Prague]

gotz von Berlichingen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tz_von_Berlichingen

The 15th century German mersenary who lost his right hand in battle. he went ahead and constructed a mechanical hand from metal with working joints, the basis for modern prostethics. Contined to ply his trade of fighting well into his 60s.

Also credited by Gothe with the famous phrase "Leck mich im Arsch". You dont even need to know German to be able to figure that one out:-)

[annis]

A slightly esrlier (14th century) badass: Klaus Störtebeker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Störtebeker) (born around 1360 in Wismar; died 20 October 1401 in Hamburg) a Baltic pirate who was the leader of a company of privateers cum pirates known as the Victual Brothers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victual_Brothers)("Vitalienbrüder" in German). I'm sure there must be the potential for some exciting fiction in there somewhere.

Störtebeker reputedly struck a deal before he was executed; any of his company he managed to walk past after being beheaded should be spared. He is said to have walked headless past 11 before his body fell, but the authorities reneged on the deal and executed all his followers anyway. Störtebeker's skull has taken on iconic status and I came across his story in this article about his skull being stolen:
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/topless-pirate-makes-the-headlines-in-biker-wars-2074764.html

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2724/4401627495_930c0cb52e.jpg

Störtebeker's execution in 1401

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4401620695_3107f200eb_m.jpg

Reconstruction of Störtebeker's head, taken from his skull

[Gabriele Campbell]

Stilicho would be an interesting subject. He was an ancillary character in Breem's Eagle in the Snow, but I don't know that much has been written about him (compared to Belisarius and Justinian's contemporaries for example).

There is one by Felix Dahn. Very 19th century-ish, pro Gothic, and probably never translated into English. ;)

[Catherine Delors]

Yeah, and why hasn't anyone written anything about her sister Mary?

Didn't Philippa do that? I didn't read TOBG, mind you, just saw the film, and there was plenty of Scarlet Johanson (sp?) as Mary.

But yes, there was much more to say about May as one of the mistresses of François I. Right, Julianne?

[Catherine Delors]

Gavrilo Princip - now THAT could be interesting!

Great idea...

[Chatterbox]

Yes, Princip would be somewhat interesting, at least as part of a circle. The problem is that he was so young, really. There was one of the conspirators who was older, more educated, married, etc (and who was executed). Maybe something about the whole conspiracy from the POV of that guy's wife or...?? Or Franz Ferdinand's Duchess and the conspirator's wife -- a collision that will leave only one of the four alive...

[Andromeda_Organa]

Queen Tiye

[Kveto from Prague]

Yes, Princip would be somewhat interesting, at least as part of a circle. The problem is that he was so young, really. There was one of the conspirators who was older, more educated, married, etc (and who was executed). Maybe something about the whole conspiracy from the POV of that guy's wife or...?? Or Franz Ferdinand's Duchess and the conspirator's wife -- a collision that will leave only one of the four alive...


did you know that he and his conspirators had tried to kill ferdinand earlier in the day with a bomb and failed. princip, later, stopped in a shop for a baguette, depressed at his failure. when suddenly he spotted the archduke's motorcade that had taken a detour. he grabbed his gun and leapt into history.

[Margaret]

I agree with Keny - Gotz von Berlichingen would be a great subject for a novel. He was quite a larger-than-life character. He wrote an autobiography, but if it's been translated into English, I'm not aware of it.

[Nefret]

Queen Tiye

I would like that too.

[Andromeda_Organa]

I would like that too.

I'm gonna get around to her when I finish my alternative history series:D

[chuck]

I would like to see Bernard Cornwell or Stephen Lawhead/Others develop a series on the Merovingian or the Carolingian Dynasties....the long haired Merovingian had Childeric,Clovis, Dagobert I, to name a few and the Carolingians had Pepin the short,(many more in between) Charlemagne and Louis the Pious....Both need to be fleshed out....a few HF novels but not many have been written.....Especially the Merovingians (my opinion) they deserve a better fate than to be remembered as descendants of Jesus Christ.....Courtly political intrigues, battles, betrayals, infidelity, pious religious hypocrisy, education, jealous heirs myths/ legends personal relationships....It's all their....Maybe a Trilogy/Edward Rutherford approach...

[annis]

I wonder if any Merovingian novels have been written in French? It does seem surprising that no one's picked up on such a rich vein of blood-stained drama.
The only novel I've read that featured Clothair was a historical romance - quite good for atmosphere but not a great novel. And now I can't even think what it was called--

[Gabriele Campbell]

Thank you. Merovingian plotbunnies is so what I need. ;)

[chuck]

Thank you. Merovingian plotbunnies is so what I need. ;)

Very interesting site....excellent photos and blogs.....

[annis]

Originally Posted by Gabriele Campbell
Thank you. Merovingian plotbunnies is so what I need.

Ha - I found it! This will definitely give you plotbunny nightmares :) What can I say? I must have had a moment of madness when I picked this one up in a bargain bin.

"Dark Dream of Love"
De Vincent, Eleanor

A handsome young king, Clotaire, his beautiful but unwilling bride Deirdre and his fiery mistriss Felice, this powerful drama is played out against the colorful backdrop of 6th century France. With swiftness and unexplained brutality he strikes down Deidre's guardian uncle and declares his intention to make the golden-haired beauty his queen and despite her strong attraction toward the dark, dashing king of the Franks, she heatedly vows she will enter a nunnery rather than marry him. As they both wage their passionate duel, the sultry Felice happily warms the king's bed and weaves her spells to bind him even closer.

[Gabriele Campbell]

Ha - I found it! This will definitely give you plotbunny nightmares :) What can I say? I must have had a moment of madness when I picked this one up in a bargain bin.

"Dark Dream of Love"
De Vincent, Eleanor

A handsome young king, Clotaire, his beautiful but unwilling bride Deirdre and his fiery mistriss Felice, this powerful drama is played out against the colorful backdrop of 6th century France. With swiftness and unexplained brutality he strikes down Deidre's guardian uncle and declares his intention to make the golden-haired beauty his queen and despite her strong attraction toward the dark, dashing king of the Franks, she heatedly vows she will enter a nunnery rather than marry him. As they both wage their passionate duel, the sultry Felice happily warms the king's bed and weaves her spells to bind him even closer.

Oh my. Deirdre is bad enough, but Felice? What sort of name is that? Surely not Merovingian.

But it's the sort of book to find a comfortable place on my SiL's shelves. She has a whole collection of questionable historicals and Scottish Highland romances. :)

[princess]

I would like to hear a little more about Scottish Kings and Queens (ok there's plenty written about Mary Queen of Scots and Bonnie Prince Charlie I'm sure) but all the James' of Scotland seem to be pretty much ignored in favour of all the Henry's of England. James I of Scotland in particular I admire after reading "Lion Let Loose" by Nigel Tranter.

[annis]

Posted by Gabriele
Oh my. Deirdre is bad enough, but Felice? What sort of name is that? Surely not Merovingian.

Yeah- this is one of the things that really irritates me in historical romances. The author could at least use names authentic to the period. Maybe in this case she thought that Deuteria and Fredegund sounded less "romantic" than Deirdre and Felice :)

[Margaret]

plotbunny nightmares

What's a plotbunny? I want one, nightmares or not. :D

[Gabriele Campbell]

What's a plotbunny? I want one, nightmares or not. :D

Plotbunnies are cute looking little critters, but the moment you stop to look at them or worse, pet them, they'll display razor sharp teeth and stick to your ankle or hand, and then you have to write their story. Usually, they breed, and often they bring their family and friends and turn trilogy on you. Or they are very enticing but you'll have to hunt down their warren to get the whole story.

And they always cling to you when you have plenty of projects and don't need any more. ;)

They are pests, but writers can't do without them. :)

[Amanda]

Margarets!

Margaret of York
Margaret of Austria
Margaret Douglas

[annis]

Posted by Princess
-- all the James' of Scotland seem to be pretty much ignored in favour of all the Henry's of England.

Just recently read Elisabeth McNeill's novel, "Flodden Field" which is the story of James IV's disastrous campaign against England during the reign of Henry VIII. (Sorry, those Henries just keep sneaking in!) The Scottish king managed to get himself and half the Scottish nobility killed instead of gaining the military glory he longed for. James IV was an interesting person- physically imposing, handsome, fiercely intelligent and cultured- a Renaissance monarch, but he had this blind need to prove himself in battle. It destroyed him, and pretty much Scotland as well.

The novel does quite a good job of showing the difficutlies of achieving dominant central leadership in a country ruled by clan loyalties, and in dealing with the Scottish chieftains and English nobility on the Anglo-Scottish border- they had more in common with each other than with kings of either country.

One thing I hadn't realised is that the Scottish royal surname, Stewart, was originally a job description, like the name Marshal of William fame. The first Stewart king was the son of the 6th High Steward of Scotland. They were an unlucky lot - there's an article here which tells their unfortunate story:
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-History/StewartMonarchs.htm

Elisabeth McNeill has written novels about other Stuarts as well;
Mary QOS in "Blood Royal", and Bonnie Prince Charlie in "The Heartbreaker", recently reviewed by Ariadne on her Reading the Past blog
http://readingthepast.blogspot.com/2009/12/review-of-heartbreaker-by-elisabeth.html

[Jemidar]

Margarets!

Margaret of York
Margaret of Austria
Margaret Douglas



Anne Easter Smith's Daughter of York is about Margaret of York and whetted my appetite for more about her. So yes, more would be good :).

On another thread (sorry can't remember which one offhand :o) there's been mention of at least one book about Margaret of Austria...something about an improper relationship with a Bishop or Cardinal, I believe.

And I agree entirely, Margaret Douglas would be very good. I'd also like to see more about her, definitely :D.

[Amanda]

Anne Easter Smith's Daughter of York is about Margaret of York and whetted my appetite for more about her. So yes, more would be good :).

On another thread (sorry can't remember which one offhand :o) there's been mention of at least one book about Margaret of Austria...something about an improper relationship with a Bishop or Cardinal, I believe.

And I agree entirely, Margaret Douglas would be very good. I'd also like to see more about her, definitely :D.

I'd forgotten about Daughter of York...it is on a shelf somewhere as yet unread.

I do have a book about Margaret Douglas but the title is escaping me atm. I only picked it up fairly recently...... :o

ETA: It is Green Salamander by Pamela Hill.

[Jemidar]

I'd forgotten about Daughter of York...it is on a shelf somewhere as yet unread.

I do have a book about Margaret Douglas but the title is escaping me atm. I only picked it up fairly recently...... :o

ETA: It is Green Salamander by Pamela Hill.


Thanks Amanda :).

I liked Daughter of York but I came to it without any prior knowledge of her (other than her existence) so found it really interesting, new and fresh. I believe accuracy wise, it's not too bad, with only a couple of deviations. There certainly wasn't anything that jumped out at me as totally outrageous except maybe that her fictional dwarf/fool married William Caxton.

ETA: The book about Margaret of Austria is The Cardinal & the Queen by Evelyn Anthony. It's mentioned on the 'Book Shopping' thread.

[Kveto from Prague]

Posted by Princess


Just recently read Elisabeth McNeill's novel, "Flodden Field" which is the story of James IV's disastrous campaign against England during the reign of Henry VIII. (Sorry, those Henries just keep sneaking in!) The Scottish king managed to get himself and half the Scottish nobility killed instead of gaining the military glory he longed for. James IV was an interesting person- physically imposing, handsome, fiercely intelligent and cultured- a Renaissance monarch, but he had this blind need to prove himself in battle. It destroyed him, and pretty much Scotland as well.

The novel does quite a good job of showing the difficutlies of achieving dominant central leadership in a country ruled by clan loyalties, and in dealing with the Scottish chieftains and English nobility on the Anglo-Scottish border- they had more in common with each other than with kings of either country.

]

Nigel Tranter (of course) wrote a book about the aftermath of Flodden Field. I cant really recommend it when the premise of the basis of the book is built on goes against the history. The book is about one of the scottish survivors who is captured and held for ransome by an english lord. But henry VIII gave orders that the English were to take no prisoners in that battle. all defeated scots were executed on the spot (pretty much a war crime by any standards. but all henry gets blamed for is killing wives. still, what a brutal bastard.)

I always dislike when a book is built around a premise that goes against the historical record. dont remember much about the book other than that. your milage may vary.

[Gabriele Campbell]

Maybe that English lord didn't tell Henry. :p

[Kveto from Prague]

Maybe that English lord didn't tell Henry. :p

possible. but would any ransome be worth double-crossing a guy who had just said "kill all prisoners.":-)

[annis]

Posted by Jemidar
ETA: The book about Margaret of Austria is The Cardinal & the Queen by Evelyn Anthony. It's mentioned on the 'Book Shopping' thread.

Sorry to disappoint, but "The Cardinal and the Queen" is about Margaret's daughter, Anne of Austria (mother of Louis XIV of France) and Richelieu.

[Gabriele Campbell]

possible. but would any ransome be worth double-crossing a guy who had just said "kill all prisoners.":-)

Double crossing kings was pretty much a sport. Sure, sometimes it left you a head shorter, but that didn't prevent the nobles from playing all sort of intrigues. :)

Do you remember the title of the novel?

[Kveto from Prague]

Double crossing kings was pretty much a sport. Sure, sometimes it left you a head shorter, but that didn't prevent the nobles from playing all sort of intrigues. :)

Do you remember the title of the novel?


oh, sorry. its called "balefire" .

oh the "historical miscue" thing is just a pet peeve of mine. It sometimes impedes my enjoyment of a book, other times i overlook it easily.

for example, i remember a short story about a Templar who was spared by Saladin after the battle of Hattin and sent on a mission of some sort. but i shut out the rest of the story because both crusader and islamic records agree, Saladin beheaded every single Templar prisoner after that battle, except the Master of the temple. There were no other Tempars spared. So when the whole book is built around something that is considered a "fact" (as far as these things go) it just turns me off.

but thats me.

[Jemidar]

The book is about one of the scottish survivors who is captured and held for ransome by an english lord. But henry VIII gave orders that the English were to take no prisoners in that battle. all defeated scots were executed on the spot (pretty much a war crime by any standards. but all henry gets blamed for is killing wives. still, what a brutal bastard.)


I think you'll find that this is one atrocity that Henry Vlll didn't commit. He was away waging war on the French at the time and Katherine of Aragon, left at home as Regent, was the one who ultimately gave the orders at Flodden. When she was told that James' body had been found among the battle dead, she also gave orders that his head was to be cut off (remember that this is her brother-in-law we're talking about) and sent to Henry in France, but was advised that this wasn't quite the done thing in England, so she settled for sending his bloodied clothes to Henry instead. Apparently Henry wasn't all that impressed by her gift, mostly because Katherine was having much more success at home against the Scots than he was in France.

ETA: The Duke of Norfolk was Katherine's General so if it wasn't on her orders, then it would've been on his.

[Margaret]

Plotbunnies are cute looking little critters, but the moment you stop to look at them or worse, pet them, they'll display razor sharp teeth and stick to your ankle or hand, and then you have to write their story. Usually, they breed, and often they bring their family and friends and turn trilogy on you. Or they are very enticing but you'll have to hunt down their warren to get the whole story.

Aha! Thanks, Gabrielle. I think I have a few of these hanging onto me already. :D

[Jemidar]

Sorry to disappoint, but "The Cardinal and the Queen" is about Margaret's daughter, Anne of Austria (mother of Louis XIV of France) and Richelieu.

Oooops...really wasn't paying attention, was I? Sorry :o.

[annis]

Did someone mention earlier Henries? Edith Pargeter's "Bloody Field by Shrewsbury" comes to mind - it features both Henry IV and his son Hal (later Henry V), whose title, Prince of Wales, is hotly contended by Welsh prince, Owen Glendower. The real hero, though is Henry IV's friend and later enemy, Henry Percy, known as "Hotspur". I'm sure I saw that this novel is scheduled for reissue, which is good news.

[rockygirl]

I'd like to see fiction on Eleanor Roosevelt.


Elliot Roosevelt (can't remember right now if he was the son or grandson of Eleanor) wrote a series of mysteries with Eleanor as the main character.

The books are available on Amazon.

[LoveHistory]

I'm very curious about Ivar the Boneless.

[annis]

Ivarr the Boneless is mostly to be found in the sagas, but he does make a minor appearance in Bernard Cornwell's Last Kingdom, and is also a character in Harry Harrison's alternate Dark Age series The Hammer and the Cross. It has been postulated that his unusual condition may have been a form of brittle bone disease.

There's an intriguing legend about Ivarr which says he was buried in a mound near the English seashore so that he could act as a Watcher, or guardian spirit. The same legend appears in stories about English King Harold Godwinsson - that his body was spirited away after the Battle of Hastings and buried overlooking the sea so that he could remain a Guardian of England.

[SGM]

Aphra Behn made it to a novel I cannot now identify and which I seem to remember was not very good. But she came over as a rather silly women. I have often thought she deserved better treatment, particularly as some consider she might be the "mother" of the English novel.

I think she gets a brief mention in Trease's Popinjaystairs -- not one of his best.

[Berengaria]

Eleanor is, of course, one of the characters of Jean Plaidy's Hammer of the Scotsbut I would like to see a novel with her as the central personage. She and Edward I had a great love for one another. And, as you know, Edward had crosses set up wherever her funeral procession stopped on its way to London. Then he married again and had children with his second wife, Marguerite. I just think it would be a fascinating time period to read about!:)

[annis]

Posted by SGM
Aphra Behn made it to a novel I cannot now identify and which I seem to remember was not very good. But she came over as a rather silly women. I have often thought she deserved better treatment, particularly as some consider she might be the "mother" of the English novel.


Aphra Behn makes an appearance in Fidelis Morgan' (p://www.fidelismorgan.com/pages/writing/fiction/fiction.htm)s wickedly funny Countess Ashby de la Zouche historical mystery series. Fidelis Morgan has also written several non-fiction books about 17th century female theatre personalities.

[SGM]

Posted by SGM


Aphra Behn makes an appearance in Fidelis Morgan' (p://www.fidelismorgan.com/pages/writing/fiction/fiction.htm)s wickedly funny Countess Ashby de la Zouche historical mystery series. Fidelis Morgan has also written several non-fiction books about 17th century female theatre personalities.

Unfortunately, I am not fond of those books. She did appear in another one -- was it the Vizard Mask? But as I say, she did not appear to advantage whichever one it was and I have long thought her a fascinating woman even if I found Orinoko (sp?) really rather too florid. There was a really interesting discussion about her in one of the In Our Times (Melvyn Bragg).

[rockygirl]

Cornelia, mother of the Gracchi

Grace Coolidge

And I agree with the mentions of Livia and Charlemange.

[Matt Phillips]

Going way back to the first post, there is a self-published novel available about Peter Francisco, written by one of his descendants, called Hercules of the Revolution: http://www.amazon.com/Hercules-Revolution-novel-based-Francisco/dp/0615296351

Also, Jose de San Martin was mentioned, and there's a poster at Absolute Write who is working on a novel in part about him. Here's his website: http://www.davidgaughran.com/index.html

[annis]

Posted by SGM
She did appear in another one -- was it the Vizard Mask?

Yes, Aphra Behn does appear in Diana Norman's Vizard Mask. Iit's a long time since I read it, but I think the connection was her time spent as a debtor in Newgate, a fate which befalls the main character.

AB led such an interesting life- you could make a good novel of her time spent as a British spy in Antwerp, for example.

[SGM]

AB led such an interesting life- you could make a good novel of her time spent as a British spy in Antwerp, for example.

You read my mind exactly.

[ccarr]

Being an avid reader of the history of British exploration in Africa, I'd nominate:

Diplomat, spy, adventurer and explorer Sir Richard Burton

Mary Kingsley, who explored West Africa alone (i.e., without a man in tow)

Florence Baker, allegedly rescued by Samuel Baker (who eventually became her husband) from white slavers, and subsequently journeyed with him on his expeditions along the Nile

Richard Ruark, member of the merchant marine, journalist, alchoholic, womanizer and big game hunter, who emulated Hemingway in every way except talent. Nevertheless, a fascinating, flawed character who lived life to the full.

[Michy]

Are there any good NF books about Mary Kingsley or Florence Baker? (I assume there's no HF since you've mentioned them on this thread). They both sound like very interesting people .....

[ccarr]

Mary Kingsley wrote an autobio-"Travels in West Africa." She's also the subject of a bio by Dea called "Mary Kingsley, Imperial Adventuress." And while I was confirming this info, I found that Richard Bausch published a fictionalized account of some of her travels in "Hello to the Cannibals." Haven't read that one.

Dorothy Middleton wrote a bio of Florence Baker entitled "To the Heart of the Nile." There's lots written about and by Samuel Baker. Happy reading.

[annis]

Pat Shipman's NF book about Florence Baker, The Stolen Woman, is quite good.

Anne Baker (not sure if there's a family connection) wrote a novel about Florence called Morning Star (1972).

I also enjoyed Brian Thompson'se NF book Imperial Vanities: The Adventures of the Baker Brothers and Gordon of Khartoum (http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Vanities-Adventures-Brothers-Khartoum/dp/0002571889)

Last year I read Iliya Troyanov's novel Collector of Worlds (http://www.amazon.com/Collector-Worlds-Richard-Francis-Burton/dp/0061351938), which I thought excellent. It approaches the life of Sr Richard Burton from an oblique angle, which works well when dealing with such an enigmatic, chameleon-like character. The story covers three major parts of Burton's life, is multi-layered and told by several different narrators.

[ccarr]

Thanks for this post. I'm particularly excited to learn about the Burton book, which I haven't read, but will track down soon. Poor Valentine Baker, although I suppose Gordon's fate was worse.

[annis]

Funny, the case against Valentine Baker for indecent behaviour on a train which ruined his career doesn't appear at all in the Wikipedia article that I can see, and yet it was a major scandal at the time, and an article about it even appears in an 1875 copy of a New Zealand newspaper (http://www.paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18750906.2.16&e=-------10--1----0-all), so it was an Empire-wide scandal as well! Thompson, in Imperial Vanities, puts quite a bit of the blame for Baker's downfall on Queen Victoria, who apparently had a real set against him because he was a friend of Bertie, the Prince of Wales. He probably would have been acquitted without her influence. Being a gentleman he refused to defend himself so as to spare the lady in question any unpleasantness.

The case is covered in Victorian Sensations (http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=c2G0W0Rty5MC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=valentine+baker+case+woman+on+train&source=bl&ots=4YSYITNtKC&sig=2gDMLRXCoozhSIHjyOSYdXi_iIQ&hl=en&ei=xSZvTOTnOIfGsAOCs7GwCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=valentine%20baker%20case%20woman%20on%20train&f=false) (see pg 126)

I see that Anne Baker, author of the novel about Florence Baker wrote an NF book about the Valentine Baker case as well, called A Question of Honour, so i'm guessing that there must be a family connection.

[Diiarts]

Margarets!

Margaret of York
Margaret of Austria
Margaret Douglas

Margaret Douglas is all over Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles like a rash.

[Diiarts]

I'd love to see something about the scientific, artistic and other innovators of mid-18th-century London - the period that gave rise to the Industrial Revolution and the Enlightenment, unjustly neglected by HF authors and in the teaching of history. Perhaps something revolving around the early years of the RSA, in the way that Neal Stephenson's books cover the early years of the Royal Society.

[M.M. Bennetts]

I've been wondering for some time why in Britain we don't know anything--that is anything at all--about the kings' mistresses, specifically the Georges.

We know lots about Madame du Pompadour, Mme du Barry, etc. And they'd probably make for quite racy (and therefore sell well) novels.

But George I had a mistress. I don't even know her name. Same for George II. And I always wonder about the women in their lives when I'm in France, where they openly celebrate the mistress's influence on the king...whether at Fontainbleu or Versailles...

There was an exhaustive biography of Beaumarchais a few years ago, but badly written--that's a chap who'd be perfect for a novel...he was a spy, he had dealings with the Chevalier d'Eon, he went nearly bankrupt supporting the American Revolution although the Revolutionary fathers reneged on the massive debt they owed him, he was hounded by the Committee of Public Safety, but didn't end on the Guillotine, he wrote the filthiest letters to his mistress when she was incarcerated for debt--and he wrote the Marriage of Figaro.

Also, I would a think a novel about Mrs. Fitzherbert, the Prince Regent's morganatic wife, would be superb. She loved him, she married him, he was a brilliant cellist, but ultimately unfaithful to her as to everyone...

[boswellbaxter]

I

Also, I would a think a novel about Mrs. Fitzherbert, the Prince Regent's morganatic wife, would be superb. She loved him, she married him, he was a brilliant cellist, but ultimately unfaithful to her as to everyone...

There are at least two novels about her that I know of, one by Jean Plaidy (Sweet Lass of Richmond Hill) and one by Diane Haeger (The Secret Wife of King George IV).

[M.M. Bennetts]

There are at least two novels about her that I know of, one by Jean Plaidy (Sweet Lass of Richmond Hill) and one by Diane Haeger (The Secret Wife of King George IV).

I know there were a couple of biographies of her written in the last few years. But I suppose what I really want is a costume drama of her on the BBC...

[Berengaria]

But George I had a mistress. I don't even know her name. Same for George II. And I always wonder about the women in their lives when I'm in France, where they openly celebrate the mistress..

George had 2 mistresses at the same time, if I recall. One very tall and thin, was called the Maypole. The other, short and squat, was called the Elephant.

[M.M. Bennetts]

George had 2 mistresses at the same time, if I recall. One very tall and thin, was called the Maypole. The other, short and squat, was called the Elephant.

That's the book I want to read!

[Miss Moppet]

I've been wondering for some time why in Britain we don't know anything--that is anything at all--about the kings' mistresses, specifically the Georges.

We know lots about Madame du Pompadour, Mme du Barry, etc. And they'd probably make for quite racy (and therefore sell well) novels.

But George I had a mistress. I don't even know her name. Same for George II. And I always wonder about the women in their lives when I'm in France, where they openly celebrate the mistress's influence on the king...whether at Fontainbleu or Versailles...

The French mistresses were far more powerful and influential than their English counterparts. Mme de Pompadour owned or rented at least 15 properties in her lifetime; Henrietta Howard, mistress of George I (edited: that should read, George II), owned one, Marble Hill House, and she had a struggle to get it. There's a biography of her although I can't remember who wrote it.

To my knowledge there haven't been any recent novels about Pompadour or Du Barry, and I'm not really sure why, other than that the language barrier may discourage English-speaking authors from taking on the research. But there's not much in French either. I know Menie Gregoire wrote a novel about Pompadour but it seems to be out of print.

My Royal Mistress Challenge page (in my signature) lists novels about royal mistresses. I can recommend Daphne du Maurier's Mary Anne, about Mary Anne Clarke, mistress of the Duke of York.

[Ariadne]

George I's mistress with the nickname "The Maypole" was Melusine von der Schulenburg, Duchess of Kendal. Yep, Melusine again.

Sophia von Kielmansegge, aka "The Elephant," has gotten some bad press; it was said at the time that she was his mistress as well as his half-sister (they shared a father, Ernst August of Hanover), but that seems to have been just a rumor started by those who resented her influence at court.

They both appear in one of Jean Plaidy's novels - probably The Princess of Celle, though it's been ages since I've read it.

[sweetpotatoboy]

Ariadne beat me to it on the Plaidy books. Plenty on the Georges' mistresses in her Georgian series of books (surprisingly not yet included in the UK or US reissues of her novels.).

Tracy Borman has written a recent biography of George II's mistress Henrietta Howard.

[Lucy Pick]

Thanks! I did read a biog about her written for YA when I was in grade school. I don't remember the title though.
Anne of Brittany does appear in Plaidy's Mary, Queen of France in the years prior to Princess Mary Tudor's arrival in France.

I know this is an old post. but might that book be Twice Queen of Francee: Anne of Brittany by Mildred Butler?

[Russ Whitfield]

We've got Sharpe, Hornblower, Kent, Bolitho(s) and Scarrows "Revolution" quartet.

Yet I've not seen any recent historical fiction about Lord Nelson in the Scarrow/Cornwell corking action adventure vein.

[M.M. Bennetts]

We've got Sharpe, Hornblower, Kent, Bolitho(s) and Scarrows "Revolution" quartet.

Yet I've not seen any recent historical fiction about Lord Nelson in the Scarrow/Cornwell corking action adventure vein.

There's also nothing from the Russian point of view, except for War and Peace, and given that the Russian army was vital in the destruction of the French Empire--particularly the flying squadrons under people like Chernyshev were tremendous in harrying the French through 1812-1814--our whole view of these wars is lop-sided toward the British point of view.

Chernyshev himself would be a great hero. Made page to Alexander at 15 because of his good looks, he was spying for the Emperor when assigned to Napoleon's court in his 20's, led these flying columns to harry the retreating French forces...

[Ludmilla]

I think a good story could be written about Vytautas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytautas) of Lithuania. He was rather slippery, switched alliances frequently, lots of family politics and rivalries going on in the background, etc.

[Kveto from Prague]

I think a good story could be written about Vytautas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytautas) of Lithuania. He was rather slippery, switched alliances frequently, lots of family politics and rivalries going on in the background, etc.

great suggestion, Ludmilla. A lot of people dont know it but Lithuania was THE power in North central Europe in the late middle ages with a vast empire. throw in large rivalries with Poland and Russia and the Teutonic Knights for good measure and youve got an untapped goldmine of stories.

you could also have Jadwiga, the female "king" of Poland.

[princess garnet]

The same can be said for Croatia! I didn't know much about it until I went to the beautiful Dalmatian coast over the summer.

I'd love to visit Lithuania someday. The closest I've been is the the Lithuania Cultural Museum in Chicago.

[Kveto from Prague]

Please someone tell me that someone has written (good) HF about Julie d'Aubigny, aka la Maupin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d'Aubigny

If anyone deserves a novel it's la Maupin. Dualist, swordswoman, opera singer, French courtier, Louis XIV setting, criminal, had several lovers male and female, entered a convent to seduce another woman then faking her death, deafeated several men in duals, dressed as a man (but didnt hide her sex), supported herself with her singing voice at times, and much more.

Someone must have written about her.

[Katherine Ashe]

Kveto,

D'Aubigny sounds marvelous.

I'm wearying of histories and HF concerning aristocratic ladies who use seduction for political power and excessive wealth. The biography of Sarah Churchill seducing Queen Anne -- given me by a publisher with an implication of "go thou and write likewise" -- tipped me over the edge. In an age when large numbers of women at last can exercise true power without having to seduce their way to it, we should be able to develop a literature with some better values.

But your Julie sounds like a refreshing hell-raiser.

[annis]

There is a post on the sadly now defunct Cimmerian blog which discusses Julie d'Aubigny as an inspiration for some of Robert E Howard's fictional swordswomen:
http://www.thecimmerian.com/“beautiful-valiant-generous-and-supremely-unchaste”-—-julie-daubigny-swordwoman/

The author mentions that d'Aubigny researcher Jim Burrows is currently writing a novel about her. He has put together a webpage with information about Julie d'Aubigny here:
http://www.eldacur.com/~brons/Maupin/MaupinIndex.html

19th century French author Theophile Gautier wrote a literary novel based on Julie d'Aubigny called Mademoiselle de Maupin (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mademoiselle-Penguin-Classics-Theophile-Gautier/dp/0140448136/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291445665&sr=1-1)which sounds a bit unusual - it has been translated into English.

She definitely sounds like a case of truth being stranger than fiction. Generally if you came across a character like this in a historical novel you would think she was totally out of period!

[Kveto from Prague]

She definitely sounds like a case of truth being stranger than fiction. Generally if you came across a character like this in a historical novel you would think she was totally out of period!

I agree Annis. La Maupin would seem far too over the top in fiction. not beleavable. Shes actually a perfect example of being able to write about a female warrior with actual historical basis.

Ill guess that she was the inspiration for Rober E Howards swordswoman/dark agnes stories. but his stories are much tamer than La Maupins actual life.

[Michy]

Kveto,


I'm wearying of histories and HF concerning aristocratic ladies who use seduction for political power and excessive wealth.

In an age when large numbers of women at last can exercise true power without having to seduce their way to it, we should be able to develop a literature with some better values.



Perhaps this is due to the fact that for most of human history, women didn't, as you say, have a way to gain and excercise true power and wealth outside of using seduction - ? So if you're writing HF about a female character -- whether real or invented -- and you want her to achieve some degree of power, the avenues are kind of limited, aren't they?

I'm not necessarily defending the type of stories you describe above, since they don't appeal to me, but I'm just asking.......

[Shield-of-Dardania]

I will not say because I intend to write about a few more obscure but interesting individuals and would not like it if anyone beat me to the personage.
Great thinking, that. Now, let me see if can get back into my old mind reading skills.

[fljustice]

Perhaps this is due to the fact that for most of human history, women didn't, as you say, have a way to gain and excercise true power and wealth outside of using seduction - ? So if you're writing HF about a female character -- whether real or invented -- and you want her to achieve some degree of power, the avenues are kind of limited, aren't they?

It depends on what kind of power you're talking about. Many women down through the ages have wielded political power without seduction...primarily as regents for their underage and/or incompetent sons (check out Catherine de Medici in our BOTM). Hatshepshut of Egypt even went so far as to seize the power in her own right from her stepson and declare herself Pharaoh. Galla Placidia ruled western Rome for years until Valentinian II grew up and continued to effectively rule as he played. Sorhatani, the wife of Genghis’ youngest son and the formidable mother of Kublai inherited her husband's titles and rights, making her one of the most powerful women of the times. Military power? Queens Zenobia of Palmyra, Boudica of the Iceni, and Amanirenas of Nubia all personally fought and defeated Roman armies. Many other Queens/Empresses prosecuted wars and negotiated peace.

Other women wielded political and moral power specifically because they were virtuous. Hypatia, the famed (and chaste) Lady Philosopher of Alexandria was active in city politics; the council and governor frequently consulted with her. Pulcheria (sister of Theodosius II) outsmarted a faction that wanted to sideline her underage brother, and barter her away in marriage, by dedicating her chastity to God in a very public ceremony, then declaring herself regent and Augusta...all at the age of fifteen! Even when her brother came of age, she continued to profoundly influence him and maintained the love of the people because of her acts of charity and obvious religiosity. Religious woman have inspired people and wielded moral power down through the ages; from St. Helen (Constantine's mother) to Jean d'Arc to Mother Theresa. These are all Christians, but every religion has its own female founders/saints/martyrs.

As to power derived from wealth: Roman, Egyptian and Celtic women could own and control their own wealth and property. In fact, there is a theory that the reason there were so many brother/sister marriages in Egypt was an attempt to keep family wealth together. One of my favorite facts is that a Celtic woman could divorce her husband, if he didn't satisfy her in bed. Now that's power! If you want to go earlier, Etruscan women seemed to have extraordinary equality for the times. During the past three centuries, education, science and social justice causes have all produced thousands of women who were founders and activists, who profoundly influenced/changed society and therefor wielded power.

The point of all this: it's very easy to pick a time period and write about a female character (whether historical or fictional) who can wield power (in its many iterations) without using seduction. I'll never be able to write all the books I'd like to about all the fascinating women I've come across in my research. The fact that so many books fall back on the sex trope says more about the unwillingness of the publishing industry to go beyond a narrow stereotype of women...or maybe the unwillingness of readers to go beyond their comfort zone. If readers demanded more realistic and rounded women, there are plenty of candidates out there.

[Kveto from Prague]

heres another interesting candidate: Gunther Pluschow. He was a german WWI pilot who crash landed in China. He managed to return to Germany by way of America and England. A pretty epic journey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunther_Pluschow

There have already been a few books about him but mostly in German.

[Kveto from Prague]

Heres one. A slave who was murdered by two nephews of Thomas Jefferson in Kentucky. Amazingly, it was an Earthquake that solved the crime and revealed the murderers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_George

[Margaret]

While I don't know of a novel about this particular incident, Kveto, there is another novel about relations of the Jefferson family that involves slavery and a murder charge: Just Deceits by Michael Schein (see review (http://www.historicalnovels.info/Just-Deceits.html)). It's from a small press and not well publicized, and has some stylistic flaws - but it was very well researched, with some vivid scenes and offers an interesting perspective on what happened. It was written by a lawyer with a good understanding of the legal issues involved at a time when the American legal system was in its infancy.