Language

[Rowan]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been listening to The Pale Horseman by Bernard Cornwall lately and have noticed something interesting.

He indicates that three languages are spoken in the land that is Britain: Danish, English and the language of the Britons.

I had assumed that the Saxons were, in fact, Britons and that they would speak English, but apparently not.

Is the English spoken by the Saxons what would become the English of today or is it the language of the Britons?

I have a book from my college days called The Story of English which I will look through for the answer, but I would also like to hear what others say.

[EC2]

I would say that English is Anglo Saxon - the language of Beowulf.
The Briton language would be what is today Welsh, or was Cornish - a Celtic language.

[Ash]

Is the English spoken by the Saxons what would become the English of today or is it the language of the Britons?

Neither and both. Because of so many invasions (Saxons, Dutch via Vikings, Normans) and the influence of the Church's use of Latin (which was spoken by those who were literate), English became a conglomerate language. This is why spelling rules are such a mess, and why the words enough, though, and through do not rhyme...Simplified explanation but you get the idea.

[donroc]

English: a Germanic language (from the Saxons) with a Latin syntax (death to those who split infinitives), and words form the Celts, Danes, Norman French, and ....

FYI: According to the Thesaurus for the Extraordinarily Literate, English has about 616,000 words, more than three times that of any other language.

[Alaric]

616,000 words, of which probably over half all mean the same thing.

It's a ridiculous language.

[annis]

But one which lends itself to so many possibilities and subtleties of nuance- as long as you can remember the word you want---
The Greeks had a word for it, but the English have three or four!
'The Story of English" is good. Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue" (http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Tongue-Bill-Bryson/dp/0380715430) is also useful- informative and entertaining as well.

[Rowan]

I've been reading the chapter in The Story of English called 'The Mother Tongue' and it's informative.

[Ash]

I've been reading the chapter in The Story of English called 'The Mother Tongue' and it's informative.


I was actually going to mention it, because I enjoyed it so much. But then I happened to see the first reviews on amazon were one stars, with lots and lots of folks agreeing. Reading them gave me pause; I wish I knew more about the subject to know how much their complaints of inaccuracies are true. May need a reread (I really did learn lots from it, so don't let those reviews stop you)

[Margaret]

The Story of English is fascinating. I haven't actually read the book cover-to-cover, but I saw the TV series the book was based on, which was a lot of fun, because you could actually hear the accents and oddball leftover words in English that are artifacts of its early development.

The Celtic Britons spoke an early version of the language that eventually evolved into the similar, but not identical, languages of Welsh, Cornish and Breton. The Saxons and Danes spoke two different, but similar, Germanic languages that eventually merged into Old English.

Then the French-speaking Normans came along. You can still trace the fact that at one time aristocrats and legal professionals spoke Old French while the common people spoke Old English, because of the way words of French and Saxon/Danish origin differ in meaning. "Swine" and "cow" come from Old English words for the live animals kept by lower class folks, while "pork" and "beef" come from the Old French words for the cooked animals eaten by the upper class folks. Regular folks "get" stuff (Old English), while lawyers and snooty folks "receive" things (French).

[Volgadon]

I was a weird kid, The Story of English was my favourite show when I was seven.

[Rowan]

I was actually going to mention it, because I enjoyed it so much. But then I happened to see the first reviews on amazon were one stars, with lots and lots of folks agreeing. Reading them gave me pause; I wish I knew more about the subject to know how much their complaints of inaccuracies are true. May need a reread (I really did learn lots from it, so don't let those reviews stop you)

Most of the reviews I just looked at were multi-starred and the one review I saw that was two stars was from an idiot who probably read it cover to cover and has no real appreciation for the language or its history. I bought the book 13 years ago when I was in college. It's a text book. Most text books are boring. What I've read thus far is historically accurate, so I don't know what that guy's problem is.

[Catherine Delors]

As a non-native speaker, I agree that English is a very rich language, due to the diversity of foreign imports.
I remember reading that Tolkien said the Norman invasion was a linguistic catastrophe (I disagree, of course: it was a wonderful opportunity.)

[Margaret]

LOL about Tolkien's comment. I certainly cherish the richness and variety of the English language. On the other hand, it's said to be one of the hardest languages to write poetry in, because there are so many clashing sound patterns. I'm not sure I agree. There are so many words in English that one has the option of choosing from among those that don't clash.

The Norman invasion was such a catastrophe for Saxon England in so many other ways that I wonder how much the "catastrophe" of the language shift registered for people who lived through the period. It's interesting to try to imagine what things were like for the people most involved - those who used both languages. They may have found it an opportunity!

Perhaps there's a flip side to other "catastrophes" as well. Certainly all the best historical novels are set in catastrophic times.

[Catherine Delors]

Certainly all the best historical novels are set in catastrophic times.

You have a point there!

[annis]

Margaret- you might find this piece interesting.

The Norman Conquest influenced the linguistic landscape of England decisively. The following statement in the Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester from around 1300 illustrates this nicely:

"Þus com, lo, Engelond in-to Normandies hond: And Þe Normans ne couÞe speke Þo bote hor owe speche, And speke French as hii dude atom, and hor children dude also teche, So Þat heiemen of Þis lond, Þat of ho blod come, HoldeÞ alle Þulke speche Þat hii of hom nom: Vor bote a man conne Frenss me telÞ of him lute. Ac lowe men holdeÞ to Engliss, and to hor owe speche-ute. Ich wene Þer ne beÞ in al the world contreyes none Þat ne holdeÞ to hor owe speche, bote Engelond one.
Ac wel me wote uor to conne boÞe wel it is, Vor Þe more Þat a mon can, Þe more wurÞe he is."
Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester, 1300

Translation:

"Thus came, lo, England into Normandy's hand: and the Normans then knew how to speak only their own language, and spoke French as they did at home, and also had their children taught it, so that noblemen of this land, that come of their stock, all keep to the same speech that they received from them; for unless a man knows French, people make little account of him. But low men keep to English, and to their own language still. I think that in the whole world there are no countries that do not keep their own language, except England alone. But people know well that it is good to master both, because the more a man knows the more honoured he is."


So the chronicle indicates that the Norman upper-classes, first and foremost, spoke French – Norman French to be precise - and they taught this language to their children. French was the most prestigious language. English, however, was the language of the lower classes – the vernacular. But, English was spoken by the majority of the population of England.

The chronicler bemoans this situation as being unique in the world: any nation should stick to its own language – in this case English. However, he nevertheless regards it as a virtue to speak both languages. Clearly, to learn French was the only way possible to climb up the social ladder.

[Catherine Delors]

Very interesting indeed!
French remained the official language of the courts for a while, before Norman French was absorbed into English. Hence the atrocious literary quality of English legalese.
It is funny to note that the Normans themselves had only recently abandoned the use of Norse. The early Dukes of Normandy were still sent to Bayeux as children to learn Norse, where it was still in common use.
By the way I grew up in the Normandy countryside, where Norman French was still the vernacular. A fun language. I speak it poorly, but I understand it very well. Don't know how close it is to the language spoken at the time of the Conquest, though.

[Margaret]

What an interesting quote from Robert of Gloucester, Annis, and I'm glad you gave us the original language as well as the translation. There's old speech patterns are rather charming. It's interesting that Robert of Gloucester wrote his chronicle in Old English rather than Norman French; from his name and standing, he would seem to have been Norman. It's also interesting that the two languages seem to have been still quite distinct and separate almost a century and a half after the Norman Conquest. I didn't pick up from the quote you provided that RG was unhappy about England having two langauges, though perhaps this conclusion is justified by other parts of the Chronicle. I like his common sense approach.

And I'm fascinated that Norman French still exists as a language, Catherine. I had no idea! What are some of the most striking differences between Norman French and regular modern French? Do you know if it still has a flavor of Old Norse?

[Volgadon]

And I'm fascinated that Norman French still exists as a language, Catherine. I had no idea! What are some of the most striking differences between Norman French and regular modern French? Do you know if it still has a flavor of Old Norse?

Maybe, maybe not, couldn't say....

Any Asterix fans?

[annis]

I spent many happy hours reading Asterix books with my kids when they were young, but in our books he conveniently spoke English (of the modern variety)

I imagine that in reality Asterix, Obelix and co would have spoken a Gallic version of the Continental Celtic language, with a bit of reluctant Latin thrown in!

[annis]

Margaret, I suspect that Robert of Gloucester is rather indignant that the majority of Anglo-Normans didn't make more of an effort to adopt the English language, and doesn't want to see it lost, but is relatively philosophical about the reality of having to deal with two languages in order to get on.

Very little is known about Robert, though there are indications that he was a monk from Gloucester and because of the dialect he used possibly of English heritage, though that is speculation.

[Volgadon]

The reason I brought Asterix up is that in Asterix and the Banquet they poke good-natured fun at Normandy. Unhurried and incapable of giving straight answers...

[annis]

Lol! You're too smart for me, Volgadon- I'd forgotten about that. Wasn't there an "Asterix and the Normans" book as well? Though I think those Normans were really Vikings and the anachronism was a joke. I recall some harping on the Normans' heavy use of cream in cooking- apparently cream is used a lot in Normandy's regional cuisine.

[Catherine Delors]

Margaret - I believe Norman French is still spoken in the United Kingdom as well, in Jersey and the other Iles Anglo-Normandes. The pronounciation of vowels and some consonents is different from standard French, grammar a bit different too, with some totally non-French words thrown in. A few come to mind: quenailles (sp? pronounced k'nal) for child, moque (sp? prounounced mock) for cup. Also in the names of people and places: a bunch of last names end in ouf (from wolf, I suppose) Renouf, Ozouf, Marcouf, etc. and place names end in vast (pronounced va): Martinvast, Sottevast. A few may remember the great bike racer Jacques Anquetil (recognize kettle in there?) I wish I knew more about that part of my heritage...

A few of you have mentioned Asterix. Thank you! Now talk about outstanding historical fiction. First let's remember Asterix lived in Brittany, not Normandy. Anyway, at the time everyone in Gaul would have spoken a Celtic language, with indeed some Latin thrown in. The rix termination itself is of Latin origin: from rex, king. This was the title Romans gave Gaul chieftains. Hence the name Vercingetorix.

The native language of Western Brittany, now sadly in the decline, is still to this day Briton, a Celtic language. A native speaker told me he had no trouble conversing in it with speakers of Irish Gaelic.

[Catherine Delors]

And oh, yes, Annis, Normand cuisine, which is delicious, does use a ton of cream. The Normands of Asterix were a (deliberately) outrageous anachronism. Loved the names: Chief Olaf Grossebaf, for instance.
Then when I was pregnant with my son, my then mother-in-law, who is of Swedish descent, suggested calling the baby Olaf, after dear late Uncle Olaf. I couldn't do it: memories of Asterix kept intruding. Plus Olaf doesn't sound too good in English, does it?

[sweetpotatoboy]

Plus Olaf doesn't sound too good in English, does it?

On a complete tangent, the name 'Olaf' has a definite connection with London.

The song 'London Bridge is falling down' is often linked to the destruction of the bridge by King Olaf II of Norway (later St. Olaf) in the early 11th century. And the name of the street just south of the bridge -- and in which London Bridge station is now located -- is Tooley Street, which comes from St Olaf's Street (over time "St Olaf" somehow became "Tooley"). This is probably because there was a St Olaf's Church in that street rather than directly because of the bridge and there are still churches called St Olaf's or St Olave's.

[Catherine Delors]

Thanks for the info, SweetPotatoBoy. Olaf must indeed sound funny in English, if the locals turned it into "Tooley." Not to mention that my poor kid would never have been able to set foot in a French school with a name like that.

[Margaret]

Definitely wise of you not to name the kid Olaf. I hope he's properly grateful. Once when my mother was pregnant I urged my parents to name the baby Hieronymus if it was a boy. An old family name I had just discovered that absolutely thrilled me. Alas, they were not enthusiastic.

[Catherine Delors]

He is only 14, so not yet quite as appreciative as he should be. Some day, I am sure.

[Catherine Delors]

As for your brother, Margaret, did you come clean about the Hieronymus situation yet?

[annis]

I bet your brother is eternally grateful that your parents didn't take up the idea:)
The hero in Michael Connolly's (modern) mystery series is called Hieronymus, but his name is a dark secret- he's always called Harry.