Dogs

[Rowan]

Okay, so this is rather a mundane question, but as I've been reading Manda Scott's third book, Dreaming the Hound, something occurred to me that I haven't thought to question before. Much is made of the presence of war hounds and I was wondering if anyone here would know what breed these dogs would've been. Would they be a breed that is recognisable today or some mixed breed?

[LCW]

I think they would look similar to today's breeds that are descended from the Molosser or Alaunt type dogs. Mastiff's, Bullmastif's, Presa Canario's, Caucasion Shepherds etc. I've also read of Wolfhound type dogs described as "war hounds" though.

[Rowan]

Thanks lila! :)

[annis]

Rowan, apparently there was an actual breed known as Pugnaces Britanniae, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugnaces_Britanniae) which is now extinct.

I've seen deerhounds and wolfhounds mentioned as well in stories about Celtic and Dark Age Britain. I remember that in Kathleen Herbert's book "Ghost in the Sunlight", the heroine goes out accompanied by her wolfhounds for protection.

[Rowan]

Thank you annis.

[LCW]

Cool link, Annis! I think while we might not know exactly what these dogs looked liked, we can say for sure that they were gigantic and had temperaments that would not be tolerated today.

I think it's sad that the trend today seems to be to "genericize" the domestic dog! There are different breeds with different qualities, personalities, and temperaments for good reasons!! I prefer a little "spunk" in my dog and I whole heartedly support breeding working and sporting dogs rather than just show ring dogs. IMO, a dogs temperament and personality are every bit as important as how it looks. Many of the champion AKC dogs can't even do the jobs that they were originally bred for! It's sad!!

[LCW]

Here's a representation of what those dogs might've looked like:

The Jennings Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennings_Dog)

[annis]

I don't know if it's just me, 1lila1, but i couldn't see an image of the dog, though i did find him here (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.artfund.org/images/artwork/4921.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.artfund.org/artwork/8056/the-jennings-dog&h=281&w=220&sz=8&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__wlGYWN-qwVLtO3imCtcKHDL1J98=&tbnid=XX0cNQvU1rWdKM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djennings%2Bdog%2Bi%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den %26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN),and he certainly looks like a powerful beast.

You guys made me curious about wolfhounds, so I looked them up and discovered that they were known among the Celts from at least the 1st century BC and probably much earlier. The size alone would scare the bejaysus out of an enemy, and apparently the Irish trained them later to pull an amoured man off his horse!
Here's Alchflaed of Bernicia from "Ghost in the Sunlight" (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/kathleen-herbert/ghost-in-sunlight.htm)out riding along the shore with her hunting spear and wolfhounds.

[Alaric]

IIRC the Romans used to use an ancestor of the Rottweiler to hunt scattered enemies, particularly in forests in Germania.

[annis]

That's really interesting, Alaric. When I went hunting for more about Roman wardogs, I found this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_dog) about the history of dogs in war which is quite fascinating. The bit about the Roman war dog battalions was pretty out there.

[Alaric]

"The Romans had attack formations made entirely of dogs."

What they used to do was unleash them after they (the enemy) had broken formation and began running. The dogs would chase them all over the place and let the legionaries pick them off at will, rather than actually have to run themselves. It was a useful substitute in the absence of cavalry :) and in the forests in Germania.

[Rowan]

I got the impression that they might've been long haired dogs because at one point in the book I'm reading Breaca says they should shave her dog Stone's coat so that it looks like he's got mange and the Romans would leave him alone. It's been at least 6 years since I've encountered an Irish Wolfhound and that encounter left an indellible mark on my olfactory senses... do they tend to have long hair? And by long I'm meaning longer than, say, what a Labrador has.

[LCW]

Whoops, annis, I posted the wrong link! Sorry, you got the right one!

I got the impression that they might've been long haired dogs because at one point in the book I'm reading Breaca says they should shave her dog Stone's coat so that it looks like he's got mange and the Romans would leave him alone. It's been at least 6 years since I've encountered an Irish Wolfhound and that encounter left an indellible mark on my olfactory senses... do they tend to have long hair? And by long I'm meaning longer than, say, what a Labrador has.

The Caucasian Shepherd is a descendant of these medieval molassar war dogs and it has extremely fluffy hair. So thick that a wolf could'nt get it's teeth to it's skin. There were probably a variety of coat lengths back then, just as there are today, depending on what job the dog was bred for.

Irishwolf hounds have scruffy wiry sort of hair, not really long, IMO:
Irish Wolfhound (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/IrishWolfhoundFrankBrendan.JPG)

I have a hard time thinking of IW's as vicious war dogs. I've known two in my life and they were both sweet goofy babies with the funniest cartoon like faces I've ever seen. But that is more likely the result of the "watering down" of temperments we see in modern time while preserving only the look of the dog!

[Margaret]

Here's another link, from one of the references posted at the end of the Wikipedia article, with better photos: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/canes/jennings.html. I'm not sure if this would be a British war hound, but I do know that British war hounds were a major export item (along with leather and grain) from Britain to the Continent in the period before the Roman Conquest of Britain. Since the climate there was fairly cold compared to the Continent (and to Italy especially) it seems likely the dogs would have good, thick coats.

Dogs were high-status animals in Celtic areas: the first part of Cuchullain's name (Cu) means "hound." So does the first part of the name of the king in sixth century Cornwall - Conomor - who is believed to have been the model for "King Mark" in the Tristan and Isolde stories.

What a fun thread this is!

[Rowan]

What a fun thread this is!

I'm glad you feel so! :D :D

[Eigon]

Wasn't Cuchullain's name a nickname, though? I seem to remember a legend where he was late for a feast, so the dogs had been let out to guard the hall - and he killed the host's dog when it attacked him, so he promised to be the man's dog and guard his hall.

[annis]

Yes, his true name was Sétanta, and he did take the name Cúchulainn after killing Culann's guard dog; Cúchulainn meaning Culann's hound as he offered to be a replacement guard for the hound he killed.
There are lots of stories around based on the Ulster Cycle featuring Cúchulainn, but a recent version which I enjoyed was "Hound" (http://www.george-green.co.uk/hound.html) by George Green.

Do you take your nom de forum from the Eigon who was the daughter of British chieftain Caratacus? I 've just been reading a time-slip novel about her- Barbara Erskine's "The Warrior Princess" (http://www.harpercollins.com.au/books/9780007174287/The_Warriors_Princess/index.aspx).

[Eigon]

Not only was Eigon the daughter of King Caractacus, but the church in the next village down the road is the only one in Wales dedicated to her!
Caractacus had a hillfort in the area, and the legend goes that, when he was captured and taken to Rome, Eigon went with him. There she met St Paul, also a prisoner, converted to Christianity, and when she came home, she built the first Christian church in Britain at Llanigon. Glastonbury is a Johnnny-come-lately according to the local legend!

More prosaically, Llanigon church is named after a follower of St David, who sent monks out to spread the Gospel all over Wales.

[annis]

In Barbara Erskine's "Warrior Princess" Eigon does become a Christian in Rome and return home to spread the word.

I believe that Cefyn Carnedd (http://www.battlefieldanomalies.com/caradoc/11_caersws.htm) is considered the most likely spot for Caratacus' last stand against the Romans.

How exciting to live so close to an area where historic events took place.
After I read "Warrior Princess" I went cyber-searching and came across this article about Caratacus' campaign, which is quite well done (even if it' a backgrounder for a game!)
http://www.avalanchepress.com/CelticTwilight.php