Alfred Duggan

[Margaret]

Alfred Duggan wrote quite a few historical novels during the 1950s and 1960s, as well as a number of nonfiction history books. His novels were highly respected for the quality of their historical backgrounds. The settings varied widely, from ancient Rome (Winter Quarters, Three's Company, Family Favourites) to fifth century Anglo-Saxon Wessex (Conscience of the King) to the medieval Crusades (Knight With Armour, Count Bohemond). His novels usually featured warfare and politics, of a grittily realistic rather than a heroic nature.

Has anyone here read Lord Geoffrey's Fancy? This is another of his Crusader novels. According to Wikipedia, it's set in "one of the short-lived Crusader Kingdoms in Greece." I'm trying to pin down the date of the setting (closer than sometime in the 13th century) so I can put it in the right category as I reorganize the "Medieval" section of my Historical Novels website. Can anyone help?

[annis]

Margaret, I have to confess that I haven't read 'Lord Geoffrey's Fancy" myself, but it's set in Greece during the short period after the sack of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade in 1204 when the Byzantine Empire was overthrown and its lands taken over by what was known as the Latin Empire. Constantinople was taken back from its final Latin ruler, Baldwin II, by Byzantine forces under Michael VIII Palaeologus in 1261, so that would be round about the period we're looking at.

Here's part of a review I came across:

<In the Thirteenth Century Crusaders headed for the Holy Land turned aside and instead conquered and occupied the East Roman (Byzantine) Empire which was their nominal ally, installing a Western emperor in Constantinople and introducing a medieval feudal system to its lands. This was the infamous Fourth Crusade. The occupation lasted only a few generations, the Westerners were too few, and the native populations too firmly wedded to their historic loyalty to the Eastern Empire and the Greek Orthodox Church to be content under the "Franks" and Roman Catholicism.

At the time of this book the "Grifons" (Greeks)are coming close to completing their re-conquest and re-establishing the Byzantine Empire. One of the few seemingly-secure Frankish realms is that of Greece, where lords and knights still hold sway. They seem unaware not only of what the future holds but also of the past - blissfully unaware of the heritage of their place, just noting occasionally the quality of the roads and buildings contracted by "the mighty men of old". They gradually become aware of the growing threat to their way of life but lack the means to protect it in the long term.

Against this background of a society seemingly secure but facing growing outside threats and inevitable decline Alfred Duggan has woven his familiar magic, entering into the minds of the people and conveying in a telling manner how they saw and experienced things. The narrator is a household knight following Sir Geoffrey de Bruyere, a brave lord, a paladin of chivalry - someone who seemingly shows the best side of Frankish nobility and yet manages in the process to make things worse for his people.>

See: Frankish States in the Aegean (http://macedonianontheweb.blogspot.com/2008/05/frankish-states-in-aegean.html)
and
The Crusaders in Greece (http://www.metafysiko.org/index.php?module=writeit&action=read&id=48)

[Margaret]

So, sometime not too long before 1261. Thanks, Annis, that's a big help! I did find that review, which has a lot of good information in it, but no dates.

What I'm confused about is the Greek angle. The Wikipedia article says the story takes place in Greece. The other descriptions I've read (like the one you quote) refer to the Greeks' effort to retake Constantinople. Constantinople is in Turkey (today's Istanbul), not Greece. Unless that part of Turkey was considered to be part of Greece at the time? Or the "Greeks" referred to are being identified by their religion rather than their nationality?

[annis]

While the story is set in Frankish-held Greece, the generic term "Grifons" (Greeks) is used in this case to refer to the Greek Byzantinian forces, who constantly battled to regain their empire after being ejected in 1204 by the Franks (the Latins) and eventualy succeeded.
You're probably right in seeing the distinction as being based on religion- the Byzantinians were of the Greek Orthodox church, while the Franks were Roman Catholic.

The story of the Fourth Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade) is a shocker- the Byzantinians were meant to be allies!
Has anyone read Nicole Galland's novel "Crossed'? Its setting is the Fourth Crusade.

[Margaret]

Aha, this makes things a bit clearer. It reminds me of the scene late in The Sunne in Splendour when part of Richard III's army suddenly goes over to Henry's side. Betrayals like this seem to have been a regular feature in warfare of the olden days.

I haven't read Crossed, but it sure looks like your kind of novel, Annis. Humor, irony and tragedy all wrapped up in a nicely adventurous package.

[annis]

I enjoyed Nicole Galland's first novel, "Fool's Tale", a dark story set in medieval Wales, but haven't got to the other two, which have had mixed reviews.

A bit more info about how the Byzantinian lands were split up after the sack of Constantinople in 1204 by the Fourth Crusaders.

<By arrangement among the crusaders, Byzantine territory was divided: in the Partitio terrarum imperii Romanie, signed on 1 October 1204, three eighths - including Crete and other islands - went to the Republic of Venice. The Latin Empire claimed the remainder, and did exert control over areas of Greece, divided into vassal fiefs: the Kingdom of Thessalonica, the Principality of Achaea, the Duchy of Athens, the Duchy of the Archipelago and the short-lived duchies of Nicaea, Philippopolis, and Philadelphia. The Doge of Venice did not rank as a vassal to the Empire, but his position in control of 3/8 of its territory and of parts of Constantinople itself, ensured Venice's influence in the Empire's affairs. However, much of the former Byzantine territory remained in the hands of rival successor states led by Byzantine Greek aristocrats, such as the Despotate of Epirus, the Empire of Nicaea, and the Empire of Trebizond, which were bent on reconquest from the Latins. >

There's a map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Byzantium1204.png) here

[Cuchulainn]

It has been a long while since I read Lord Geoffrey's Fancy, and I don't remember alot of details, but I remember really enjoying it.

I just picked it up off my shelf and I see that the narrator says he was born in 1233, and he seems to begin the tale with his journey towards Outremer in 1254.

I believe most of the book is set around Athens which they knew as "Satines" and Sparta which they knew as "La Cremonie."

[Kveto from Prague]

Margaret,

Ive read several Duggan Novels. lets see Knight in Armour, Lord Bohemond, lord geoffrey, lady for ransome, little emperors. they are all excellent, true historical fiction where you earn while being entertained.

Lord Geoffreys Fancy is set in one of those forgotten time periods that duggan loved. after the 4th crusade,greece was carved up by European lords, (very similar to the norman conquest of england), so the lords of the land were chivalrus knights who were trying to impose their lifestyle on medievil greeks who really had no interest. its definately a medievil novel which happens to be set in greece. one of the things i loved about it was that it was a chapter of greeces history that no one has touched on before or since, a time when greece was as chivalrus as western europe (although the author shows just how that chivalry was an illusion).

Lord Geofferys Fancy is a great one. Its not as bleak as some of Duggans other works. As i was reading it i was starting to think the narrator had a bit too much luck. but duggan brings it home as always. the title character (whom the narrator serves) proves a tough figure to pin down. everyone tells you how great he is but his actions dont really back it up.

ive heard its pace is not for everyone. duggans writing style is not face paced modern page turner. but if you prefer substance over flash, you will learn a lot. his novels to me feel much more "this is how it was" than any other novelist.

i read it in a re-issued copy that my sister posted me from the states. they seem to be reissuing all of duggans novels (and i vow to read em all)

hope this helps,
keny from prague

[Kveto from Prague]

ps.

one other note. Constantinople for almost all of its history was greek. only realatively recently did the turks conquer it. most of the lovely old buildings there (hagia sophia, hippodrome) were definately built by byzantine greeks. a fact that still rankles many greeks

[rex icelingas]

Greeks? Only by the West,the Byzantines would always refer to themselves as Romans :)

Ive not read Lord Geoffreys fancy,it is on my wish list though
I have Alfred Duggan to thank to stop me being a HF snob,my first book of the genre was `Conscience of the King` a well told tale of the rise of Cerdic of Wessex after that ive not looked back

Last one I read of his was `Threes Company` a different look at Crassus defeat at Carrhae,very good indeed
Im praying they continue re-printing his works,im sure i remember seeing one he did on Alfred the Great

[Kveto from Prague]

Greeks? Only by the West,the Byzantines would always refer to themselves as Romans :)

Ive not read Lord Geoffreys fancy,it is on my wish list though
I have Alfred Duggan to thank to stop me being a HF snob,my first book of the genre was `Conscience of the King` a well told tale of the rise of Cerdic of Wessex after that ive not looked back

Last one I read of his was `Threes Company` a different look at Crassus defeat at Carrhae,very good indeed
Im praying they continue re-printing his works,im sure i remember seeing one he did on Alfred the Great


of course, i was just using greek here for clarity since using roman would be potentialy more confusing (something many HF authors realised)

conscience of the king is fantastic. a real tour de force by Duggan in making cerdic a real scoundrel. its my second favourite duggan tale after "knight in Armour" (which says a lot since i generally dont care for Anglo-saxon fiction)

dont know if duggan ever did Alfred. Alfred seems too mainstream for duggan, who loved obscure characters. but id not bet the farm on it.

i just picked up family favourites and will be devouring it soon. and all of my copies are recent editions so his work is popular for reprinting

[annis]

Hi Keny

Alfred Duggan did have a go at Alfred. with his novel "The King of Athelney"

"Winter Quarters' also features Crassus' defeat at Carrhae, from the POV of a Galiic auxiliary cavalryman captured by the Parthians and sent to Marginalia.

Ben Kane has written a more recent story about the Roman survivors of the Battle of Carrhae called "Forgotten Legion" (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/k/ben-kane/forgotten-legion.htm) which I enjoyed. It's the first in a series and the second book has just been released, though I haven't read it yet- "Silver Eagle".

[rex icelingas]

Ah Winter Quarters not Threes company, my mistake

Another Duggan novel dealing with Byzantium is `Count Bohemond` which is high on action but very flat on characterization and one of his more duller books

`the Little Emperors` if somewhat wordy rather than action packed is well worth the effort,a brilliant take on the early fifth century of Roman Britain

I can also recommend `Family Faviroutes` an interesting look at the most curious Roman Emperor Elagabalus
and `the Cunning of the Dove` which is the story of Edward the Confessor told by the opinion of his dresser.Edward is often perceived as a weak King but this book puts a lovely spin on the usual opinions of the build up to 1066.

[EC2]

`the Cunning of the Dove` which is the story of Edward the Confessor told by the opinion of his dresser.Edward is often perceived as a weak King but this book puts a lovely spin on the usual opinions of the build up to 1066.

I thought this one was pretty blah and dated. To me it read rather like a text book with dialogue. I thought the dresser chap was good, but I never really felt that I was seeing the real Confessor or his life and times and everyone else was pretty much two dimensional. Very strange that Edward's wife was anti her own brother too!

[Kveto from Prague]

of the 6 duggan novels ive read id rank them like this:

1. Knight in Armour
A great travelouge of the 1st crusade with an interesting protagonist. the hardship endured really comes to life. also the protagonists low rank allows you to see both the nobility and peasantrys sides.

2. Conscience of the king
Duggans most scoundrelish protagonist. the chapter headings alone are brilliant "my brother meets with misfortune. my father meets with misfortune. my wifemeets with misfortune...etc.

3. Lord Geoffreys fancy
An interesting look at the Frankish Greek empire.

4. Count Bohemond
the first crusade from one of the main participants. i was sorry that duggan didnt live to write his intended sequal starring tancred about the early years of the kingdom of jerusalem.

5. the lady for ransome
the norman mercenary balliols adventures in byzantium. has a very strong female lead (balliols wife)

6. the little emperors
duggans take on the sudden colapse of roman britain. the protagonist is different from the norm being an older administrator civil servant.


all were great in my opinion. i know duggans style might be a bit slow for modern readers but i feel he really comes through on content. you feel youre learning something new all the time

[Margaret]

Very helpful, Keny!

[annis]

Alfred Duggan's style can come across as rather distant and unemotional, and i know some readers find that off-putting. Sometimes that objectivity can be very effective, as in the chillingly unemotional way AD describes the massacre of the Germanic tribes by Caesar's soldiers in "Winter Quarters", which somehow emphasises the horror of the event.

I wonder if "Conscience of the King" is livelier because AD was not constrained by having to work around known events. In fact, some scholars even doubt Cerdic's very existence.

I haven't read "Cunning of the Dove", but for a fair look at Edward, i recommend Parke Godwin's "Lord of Sunset". It covers the years leading up to the Battle of Hastings, and is quite unusual in that it is told from multiple POV, and so events are seen as they affect all the different players: Harold Godwinson, his more Danico wife, Edith Swan-neck, various members of the Godwinson clan, including Edith Godwinson and her husband, Edward the Confessor. Edward does not come across as weak, but as an Englishman raised as a Norman who struggles with the concept of the English laws and rights which he keeps tripping over. While talking with William of Normandy, at one point he sighs, "The main trouble with being ruler of England is the English!" All the different voices weave together to create a very human and rather moving whole.

[Kveto from Prague]

Alfred Duggan's style can come across as rather distant and unemotional, and i know some readers find that off-putting. Sometimes that objectivity can be very effective, as in the chillingly unemotional way AD describes the massacre of the Germanic tribes by Caesar's soldiers in "Winter Quarters", which somehow emphasises the horror of the event.

I wonder if "Conscience of the King" is livelier because AD was not constrained by having to work around known events. In fact, some scholars even doubt Cerdic's very existence.

.

Duggan said as much himself, that obscure characters gave him more freedom and necessitated less research (i think he was being modest on the research comment)

and Duggan very cleverly explains away the Celtic name (Cerdic)of a wessex king. as to his existance, i tend to consider the majority of well-knowns from that era of questionable existance.

I think its lively because Duggan gave himself free reign to make Cerdic a really immoral character. but he always managed to justify his actions through ambition

[Kveto from Prague]

I haven't read "Cunning of the Dove", but for a fair look at Edward, i recommend Parke Godwin's "Lord of Sunset". It covers the years leading up to the Battle of Hastings, and is quite unusual in that it is told from multiple POV, and so events are seen as they affect all the different players: Harold Godwinson, his more Danico wife, Edith Swan-neck, various members of the Godwinson clan, including Edith Godwinson and her husband, Edward the Confessor. Edward does not come across as weak, but as an Englishman raised as a Norman who struggles with the concept of the English laws and rights which he keeps tripping over. While talking with William of Normandy, at one point he sighs, "The main trouble with being ruler of England is the English!" All the different voices weave together to create a very human and rather moving whole.


thanks for the advice, annis. Im not a big fan of anglo-saxon settings (i feel theyve been done to death and there are other times and areas that deserve attention. but thats just me). which is why i was a bit surprised ithat i liked "conceience" so much.

lord of sunset sounds intriging. most hastings era fiction is far to imbuded with apochraphyl nationalism for my tastes. Edward representing the English and all that. quite silly to assume that rulers would have our modern ideas of nationalism and patriotism. but if the author of that one has managed to overcome that stereotype (Edward would have been very "norman" in his way of thinking) then id be very interested.

thanks, as always.

[Kveto from Prague]

heres a list of Duggan HF with their subjects in case any are interested:

Knight with Armour (The First Crusade)

Conscience of the King (The beginnings of Saxon England)

The Little Emperors (The end of Roman Britain)

The Lady for Ransom (11th-century Normans in Byzantine service)

Leopards and Lilies (Early 13th-century England)

God and My Right (St. Thomas ŕ Becket)

Winter Quarters (Rome under the First Triumvirate)

Three’s Company (Rome under the Second Triumvirate)

Founding Fathers (The founding of Rome)

Family Favorites (The reign of Elagabalus)

The Cunning of the Dove (Edward the Confessor)

The King of Athelney (Alfred the Great)

Lord Geoffrey’s Fancy (13th-century Frankish Greece)

Elephants and Castles (The successors to Alexander the Great)

Count Bohemond (The First Crusade again)

[Ash]

Both of your lists are very helpful, thanks Keny!

[annis]

Posted by Keny
most hastings era fiction is far too imbued with apochraphyl nationalism for my tastes.

You might find that aspect annoying in "Lord of Sunset" as well, only in this case it is Harold Godwinson who is the patriot. The concept of Angelcynn is central to Harold and informs all his actions. Angelcynn is a bit difficult to describe - it means both the English people and the land they occupy.

[Margaret]

Our own concept of nationalism is so tied to land and government, it's hard for us to conceive of the earlier concept under which nationalism was based on what was essentially a widely extended kinship group. Harold Godwinson was probably still at the cusp of the old concept as it evolved into the new. When people were still largely nomadic (and the Celtic and Germanic people held onto nomadic customs and concepts fairly late among European peoples, because they had not been part of the Roman Empire during its classical period), it made no sense to attach the idea of rulership and nationality to the people who lived in a particular land.

[annis]

Interestingly, given his Saxon ethnic background, King Alfred can probably be credited with the promotion of the term Angelcynn and the invention of the English as a political community, so the concept of Angelcynn actually dates back well before Harold's time, to Alfred and the tenth century West Saxon kings who followed him.

[parthianbow]

Hi Annis
Many thanks for your thoughts on The Forgotten Legion. However I can definitely tell you that The Silver Eagle has not yet been published - it still hasn't had its last copy edit! It's being released in the UK on June 4th. If you buy a copy, I hope you enjoy it.

[/QUOTE] It's the first in a series and the second book has just been released, though I haven't read it yet- "Silver Eagle".[/QUOTE]

I have to confess that I hadn't read Alfred Duggan's Winter Quarters, or even heard of it, until recently. When told about it by someone on a HF thread on Amazon.com though, I dutifully went and bought a copy (which has a truly awful jacket picture). I'm thoroughly enjoying Winter Quarters, and am about halfway through it. Excellent historical fiction.

May I pass on my compliments about this website too, which I only discovered this morning. It's excellent, and I look forward to participating in good threads in the future.

Best wishes

[annis]

Good to hear from you, Ben. Apologies for misleading people about "Silver Eagle" I'm not sure where I picked up the idea that it was already out-- I just checked Book Depository and see that it's listed as being on pre-order for June this year. Does that sound right? It's definitely on my list of titles to keep on eye on.

[sweetpotatoboy]

I'm currently reading my first Duggan: Three's Company.

I found it a bit... stodgy to begin with. Even though I know the period and have read novels on it recently, I still found it a little difficult to get into. But about a third of the way in, it settled down and I'm enjoying it.

Interesting to read about Rome's Second Triumvirate from the viewpoint of Lepidus, rather than Octavian or Mark Anthony, for once.

I'm sure I will read other Duggan novels after this one.

[Kveto from Prague]

I'm currently reading my first Duggan: Three's Company.

I found it a bit... stodgy to begin with. Even though I know the period and have read novels on it recently, I still found it a little difficult to get into. But about a third of the way in, it settled down and I'm enjoying it.

Interesting to read about Rome's Second Triumvirate from the viewpoint of Lepidus, rather than Octavian or Mark Anthony, for once.

I'm sure I will read other Duggan novels after this one.

Just got "winters quarters" and "leopards and lilies" in the post. will make for some good summer reading.

[Kveto from Prague]

just bumping this thread up for Chris

[Chris Little]

is one of my Duggan favorites -- thanks Keny for bringing the Duggan stream to my attention. This site continues to get richer daily for me.

[Kveto from Prague]

sure, Chris. Im always happy to find another Duggan fan:-)