The Winter Mantle

[pat]

I am loving this novel,EC! It is taking me all round my old stomping grounds! I grew up in a village next to Elstow, Bedfordshire. In fact I went to school in Elstow! Now, where in Elstow is your reference to? I wondered if it was Moot Hall?

The Huntingdon references are also great to me! I lived in St Neots till we moved here, just up the road!

[LCW]

This was the first Chadwick I ever read. Although now it's not my favorite, it's still a very good novel!

[Misfit]

Pat, when you get to The Falcons of Montabard the main character in that book is a small baby at the end of TWM. You'll also see a few of the characters from TWM in the very first part of Falcons. I liked Falcons, it was my first and Sabin is quite a hottie IMO :D:p:D

[pat]

OMG!! This is so much of a trip down memory lane! I have just read that the Abbot was buried in Peterborough!

[Lauryn]

I just finished this book, and really loved it. Now I must go and get a copy of The Falcons of Montabard, so I can follow along!

I do notice something though, that women at this particular court who were prepared to be less than chillingly dutiful, and more warm and caring, were apt to get their fingers slapped. Judith thawed towards Waltheof, and her mother was hard on her, and then Judith repeated the cycle with her own daughter. The message seemed to be that women of a certain rank were not entitled to nurturing or warm feelings, and if they had them, were to either stomp them out or live with a secret weakness.

[EC2]

I just finished this book, and really loved it. Now I must go and get a copy of The Falcons of Montabard, so I can follow along!

I do notice something though, that women at this particular court who were prepared to be less than chillingly dutiful, and more warm and caring, were apt to get their fingers slapped. Judith thawed towards Waltheof, and her mother was hard on her, and then Judith repeated the cycle with her own daughter. The message seemed to be that women of a certain rank were not entitled to nurturing or warm feelings, and if they had them, were to either stomp them out or live with a secret weakness.

Glad you enjoyed the read Lauryn. It's a bit since I researched that one but from the 'impression memories' I recall that both Judith and her mother came over in the chronicles as being 'hard' women. I'd have to go back to the references to remember.
I guess that having William the Conqueror as the pater familias, one would fear to step out of line and it would either make one harsh to one's own subordinates, or turn one into a jelly. I wonder if it's a myth about him giving his wife the thrashing of her life before their marriage when she refused to marry him. I seem to recall quite a few older historical novels made a meal out of that scene! Again, faulty memory means I can't remember the wherefore and why!

[annis]

The beating of Matilda by William was apparently mentioned in several contemporary chronicles:
"Although the Norman, French, and Flemish chroniclers differ as to the place where William the Conqueror perpetrated this assault on his cousin, and relate the manner of it with some few variations, they all agree as to the fact that he felled her to the ground by the violence of his blows. This incident is quoted by Michelet, in his History of France, and authenticated by the author of L'Art de Verifier les Dates, from a curious contemporary MS. Vatout also records the circumstance in his History of the Chateau d'Eu; and refers the antiquary for further particulars to an ancient MS. chronicle in the Ecclesiastical library at St. Germains-au-Pres, Paris."

According to Baudoin d'Avesnes, in the midst of the rejoicings at the nuptial feast of William and Matilda, her father, the earl of Flanders, asked his daughter, laughingly, how it happened that she had so easily been brought to consent at last to a marriage, which she had so scornfully refused in the first instance. "Because," replied Matilda, pleasantly, "I did not know the duke so well then as I do now; for," continued she, "he must be a man of great courage and high daring who could venture to come and beat me in my own father's palace."

As well as rejecting Wiliam as being of inferior social status, Matilda was supposed to have made mock of his illegitimacy, a subject about which he was very touchy.

*Edit -
Posted by Lauryn
The message seemed to be that women of a certain rank were not entitled to nurturing or warm feelings
It occurs to me that maybe in Norman society display of emotion was considered unseemly? Perhaps in fact the Normans are responsible for that trait considered archetypically English - the stiff upper lip :)

[Lauryn]

Actually, I had cause to wonder something a little different last night. I'm reading an NF title, Millennium, by Tom Holland, who is romping his way across the Byzantine Empire and Europe in the decades on either side of Anno Domini 1000, and he made a point that I had never really thought about with regards to the Normans, vs all the other groups of Franks that became France.

The King of France, shaky on his throne and dealing with pirates sailing up his river and robbing him blind, paid one of them off with the wasteland they had helped to create - on the condition that he convert to Christianity and turn around and hold the line against other excursions from his countrymen. Okay, this is Rollo, and we know this story. Rollo and his fellow settlers, who became the Normans PDQ after the land grant, suddenly were trying to pass themselves off as being as respectable, well-behaved and pious as any of their neighbours.

Want to bet that put HUGE pressure on everybody? Your "duty" is to NEVER give the Angevins or Capetians (or Burgundians or or or) any possible excuse to look down their noses at any Norman, ever. William the Conqueror was only 200 years or so after Rollo, but I'll just bet that's part of why the women of his court were so stern. Possibly not the whole story, but probably a factor, IMHO. :D

[Loveday]

I'm in the middle of The Winter Mantle, my first EC, and I'm loving it! I have just one, rather trivial, question: How do you pronounce 'Waltheof?' :confused: I know, it's silly, but every now and then I come to a dead stop while reading and try out different ways in my head, and none of them sound right! :o

[EC2]

I'm in the middle of The Winter Mantle, my first EC, and I'm loving it! I have just one, rather trivial, question: How do you pronounce 'Waltheof?' :confused: I know, it's silly, but every now and then I come to a dead stop while reading and try out different ways in my head, and none of them sound right! :o

Umm... I'm not precisely sure myself given that it's a name of a thousand years old and earlier, but my best guess (and I stand to be corrected by any Anglo Saxon experts on the forum) is 'Wol - thee (with the 'th' pronounced as in 'thick' rather than as in 'these' and 'off' So Wol-thee-off. That's how I say it.

All best
EC :-)

[Loveday]

Umm... I'm not precisely sure myself given that it's a name of a thousand years old and earlier, but my best guess (and I stand to be corrected by any Anglo Saxon experts on the forum) is 'Wol - thee (with the 'th' pronounced as in 'thick' rather than as in 'these' and 'off' So Wol-thee-off. That's how I say it.

All best
EC :-)

Thank you, EC! That was one of my many attempts. At one point I also tried looking at it as an early form of 'Walter,' but I kept stumbling over that 'f' at the end. :rolleyes: LOL!

Thanks again! :)

[annis]

I'm pretty sure that in Anglo-Saxon "F" is pronounced as "V", which is how "Godgifu" (pronounced something like "Goodeevuh") got to "Godiva" and "Leofric" is apparently pronounced "Lovric". So I'm guessing that Waltheof would also probably have an "ov" ending. Going by the "Leofric" example, that could mean that "Waltheof' is "Wol-thov", though I'm certainly not an expert :)

[EC2]

We're having a discussion on the Regia e-list at the moment re pronunciation of Eadgyth. Lots of different opinions. Someone's going to ask Stephen Pollington who's a Regia member but not on our e-list. He's one of the UK's best Anglo Saxon linguists, so he'll know if anyone does. I'll have to ask him about Waltheof! Someone brought up the matter of regional dialect having an effect on names. For e.g. saying a word like 'our' in England today, you'll get pronounciations such as 'Wor' in the North-East, 'Aaar' in the South and 'Ower' in the Midlands. Grass with a short 'a' in the north and 'Graaarse' in the south.
Double O's pronounced in the North as in 'Moo' and in the south with a much more muted almost 'U' sound.
I've seen the name 'Waldeve' which could come from Waltheof if it was pronounced 'Walthev' so my Wol thee off could be totally wrong, but it's how I pronounced it in my head!:) I guess like I grew up being taught about Queen 'Bowdaseea' as opposed to the more correctly thought of 'Boodika.'

[annis]

I wonder if "Waltheof" was originally written with the Anglo-Saxon "ð" (eth), which indicated a "th" sound. That could later be read as a "d", though "d" (pronounced "dih" rather than "dee") and "th" sound pretty similar. The other possibility (and the most likely, perhaps, as it's the most obvious) is that the name was pronounced "Wolt-hov", which could easily over time become Woldov or Waldeve.

It will be interesting to hear what your A/S expert has to say. I had the idea that the internal "g" in a compound name was usually elided, (as in Godgifu, pronounced Goodeevuh), which would make Eadgyth = Edith.
,
It's funny how the way we make up pronunciations when we're young because often we read words and don't actually ever hear them spoken. For years I thought the medieval word for the Holy Land,"Outremer", was pronounced "Out Raymer" until I later learnt a bit of French and realised that it was really "outre mer" (overseas)!