Why is American History Shunned in HF novels?

[Divia]

So I was reading the super cool Reading the Past blog and there was an interview with author Christine Blevins. It was stated at the last HNS conference that agents discouraged people from writing HF set in America.

My question is WHY?

I know this country isnt that old compaired to others, but surely America has some interesting events in it. Are we that dull? Is it becuase we dont have kings and queens and castles so people believe we arent interesting? What is it that makes agents and publishers shy away from American HF. As a person writing a manuscript (ahem to actually. And one day they will be done ;) ) I'm a little turned off by this. I know American history. I studied it both women's and slave history. And while I know about Europe I'm no expert.

So why do publishers shy away from American HF?

[SonjaMarie]

I guess from my point of view, I've really found American History boring. Maybe it was because it just seemed so male-centric, and yes I know European history is very male-centric, but it has a lot of women who made history and American just doesn't seem to have that many or any that catch my imagination!

SM

[JMJacobsen]

I wonder if, in context, the remark meant that they are shying away from American hf at this time. Like any other genre, hf tends to have it's "fads" and right now the fad is apparently Tudor England, give or take a few centuries. I swear, you could throw together the worst manuscript ever written but if it was about some aspect of Tudor history, it'd be published these days.

I suspect that all it would take is one best-seller written on Colonial America and then that fad would take off.

Of course, I've been wrong before..... ;)

[Ash]

You'll have to ask them, I suppose. I don't think it has to do with dullness, or lack of age. This country is so large, and has had so many significant (and quirky) events in its young history that there is a ton of material to work with. For agents to reject a whole country's history out of hand seems strange. For readers, I'm sure it depends on interes; personally I haven't seen a lot that sparks my interest. I am not interested at all in Western/pioneer type stories which seems to be a large part of the books I see; very uninterested in the American Revolution, tho find the colonial times of interest. I find the Civil War very interesting as well as the turn of the last century, so I tend to find those books.

Thing is tho, what are they considering historic fiction? There are many books out there that take place during specific time periods and could probably count as historical, but might not be marketed as HF.

[Alaric]

A lot of historical fictionauthors - especially the big names - are British. By and large I think it is fair to say that a British author is more than likely going to write about something European related than they are something American related. That's probably a by product of Europeans generally having a greater appreciation of their history than Americans (just my opinion). That, and it's probably more profitable for the publisher as there are far more events in European history than American so they promote it as such.

There's also a certain romanticism to European history that all the other continents lack, partly because ours (I say ours because I've always considered myself European) is documented for so many centuries and has had such a volume of work already written. American history has no King Arthur figure (of which a lot of fiction is modeled on), no Caesar, no Alexander the Great, no Henry VIII and no Napoleon. Your major historical figures aren't so well known outside of Washington and Lincoln. Everyone knows who Caesar and Napoleon are whereas 90% of your presidents are in-and-out so quickly they barely leave a mark on the rest of the world.

Myself, I don't find American history particularly interesting. I'm a total Europhile when it comes to history. But another thing you've got to remember is that there are plenty of people in this world that rather rightly or wrongly dislike America and Americans. You don't have a particularly great reputation around the world. The thought of being forced into reading something about America would piss plenty of people off simply because it's about America. Of course, that's ridiculous and narrow minded. But there are a lot of people that simply dislike America and Americans to the point where many books about them/it would be unprofitable for publishers outside the US, so they don't bother, and because so many authors of historical fiction aren't American there's not as much demand for it.

I hope that made some sense. :confused:

[Vanessa]

I think it's basically because European countries are older, so there are more eras/periods in time to write about, more interesting, intriguing and sometimes revolting characters! America is relatively new compared to Europe. It is fads, too, what's fashionable at the time to read and watch if you like - Henry VIII does seem to fascinate people!:eek:

There is an abundance of excellent contemporary novels set in America and I can think of quite a few hf ones, too. Water for Elephants is a favourite of mine about the circus (I think it's classed as hf?).

I loved Gone with the Wind - I think it would be a hard act to follow for it's time period, it's a famous book and will always be famous.

I have the John Jakes' North and South trilogy on my TBR pile - I remember watching the TV series years ago and I loved it, hence the books!

As long as the story is good and it keeps me wanting to turn the pages, I enjoy reading books set anywhere really.

[Catherine Delors]

are been huge successes. Think of The Alienist, for instance.

[donroc]

Can't Win Department.

While trying to sell Rocamora from 1994-2007, too many agents told me one or the other:

1. "No one is interested in the history of other countries."
2. "Historical fiction is a tough sell these days."
3. "Most readers are women and you have a male MC. Tough sell."

If U.S. historical novels are a tough sell, it may well be caused in part by our educational system which probably afflicts negatively the agencies and publishing houses and Hollywood.

U.S. History is a 1 year course in our high schools taught usually by non-U.S. History majors under the blanket of social studies. So the teacher may be an econ major, sociology major, or even coach who has a S.S. minor. They will had had no more an another year of U.S. History in college.

Also, U.S. History was a 1 year course in high school when I was in high school during the 1940s and when my parents were in school during WWI. It cannot be taught comprehensively in one brief year.

There may be a bias against anything positive about the USA from some in the business who have been indoctrinated leftwards at our universities, but that is for another thread.

[Divia]

Well then I guess I am screwed then because Im not that in love with european history to write about it. I am so sick of Tudor crap being shoved down my throat and all I know is American history. I want to read stories set in this country but they are far and few between. Its annoying and frankly I am getting frustrated.

Christ on a cracker the Tudors werent the only people in history. :mad:

[Leyland]

A very interesting bridge exists directly between late Tudor and then Stuart history regarding the founding of the New England colonies and the huge Virginia colony. Such wonderful stories have been set in both Britain and the early colonies the way Anya Seton (Devil Water and The Winthrop Woman) and Karleen Koen have done. I'm very much a fan of these novels. How many HF's feature Elizabeth I's seadogs and explorers?

South Carolina could be a bonanza for a cross Atlantic novel setting. So many Huguenot families were founding families there. The French Wars of Religion era and the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes era would both make very interesting European settings.

Failed French and Spanish colonization at Charlesfort/Santa Elena (http://www.cas.sc.edu/sciaa/staff/depratterc/newweb.htm) occurred in Carolina before the English succeeded. Jean Ribaut's expedition in 1562 brought him to a base in Florida on the banks of the St Johns River and then upward to Port Royal SC. France claimed Florida, but that didn't go so well! Imagine the adventure and drama involved in these very early attempts. I'd love to read a well told fictional account about the entire voyage and settlement from the viewpoint of multiple characters and their backstories.

How could agents and publishers resist? :)

[boswellbaxter]

I think the way American history is taught in US schools causes a lot of American readers to lose interest in American history. It's taught as a series of dates and events, with very little emphasis on the people involved. So when these students grow up and start buying books, they've already acquired a belief that American history is boring, and they're likely to seek out novels set elsewhere than in the US.

That being said, I don't think anyone writing a US-set novel should give up hope, but to get published they might have to work harder at their craft than someone working with a more popular setting.

[Ash]

But another thing you've got to remember is that there are plenty of people in this world that rather rightly or wrongly dislike America and Americans. You don't have a particularly great reputation around the world. The thought of being forced into reading something about America would piss plenty of people off simply because it's about America. Of course, that's ridiculous and narrow minded. But there are a lot of people that simply dislike America and Americans to the point where many books about them/it would be unprofitable for publishers outside the US, so they don't bother, and because so many authors of historical fiction aren't American there's not as much demand for it. I hope that made some sense. :confused:

Why on earth would people's anger at American policy dictate what agents and publishers feel about American History. And yes that is narrow minded and ridiculous; and I suspect that people who read HF are more open minded than that. Besides, who in the hell is forcing them to read American history. I for one would suggest tho that they start with Tony Horowitz books: Confederats in the Attic, Blue Latitudes, The Devil May Care: Fifty Intrepid Americans and Their Quest for the Unknown, and A Voyage Long and STrange: rediscovering the New World to find that our history is vibrant, alive and interesting, and enough to write many books about.

Please don't misunderstand, I am very very critical of my country right now, but your comments have angered me, as Id be angered by any generalization about any country or culture that was based solely on the government's policiies. </rant>

BTW Alaric, I realize that you were simply the messenger and were just reporting what you see the reasons might be. But just the idea that people can be so idiotic infuriates me (and as I see people flocking to more of the same the last few weeks, heart breaking as well)

[Misfit]

Wow, what a great topic. It is tough to find HF novels set in the US (more more), I can see the point that they might not sell well outside of the US. I'd like to read more about the Revolutionary War and Civil War from a women's viewpoint. I love stories from California and the gold rush, and stories from the Oregon Trail. I have found a few out there, unfortunately most are out of print.

[Ash]

I think the way American history is taught in US schools causes a lot of American readers to lose interest in American history. It's taught as a series of dates and events, with very little emphasis on the people involved. So when these students grow up and start buying books, they've already acquired a belief that American history is boring, and they're likely to seek out novels set elsewhere than in the US. .

I totally agree. I was blessed with a few social studies teachers in Jr Hi and HS who whet my appetite for more, but I am an exception. And right now, with the test test test mentality in our country, all thats focused on is reading and math. Everything else takes a backseat to the 'basics', which means our students lose out and our country becomes even more isolated.

[Misfit]

I think the way American history is taught in US schools causes a lot of American readers to lose interest in American history. It's taught as a series of dates and events, with very little emphasis on the people involved. So when these students grow up and start buying books, they've already acquired a belief that American history is boring, and they're likely to seek out novels set elsewhere than in the US.

That being said, I don't think anyone writing a US-set novel should give up hope, but to get published they might have to work harder at their craft than someone working with a more popular setting.

I agree. Unless the way history is being taught in US Public schools in the last 30 years or so it's a very dry dull topic indeed. As much as I love history now, that was one class that did not challenge me as a student (and I was a good student) anyway shape or form.

[MLS859]

I love novels set during the American colonial and revolutionary periods -- but they are hard to find. The medieval era -- which is my favorite -- has a plethora of novels to chose from -- and some of them are not so great but seemed to find a way to be published anyway.

[LCW]

I guess from my point of view, I've really found American History boring. Maybe it was because it just seemed so male-centric, and yes I know European history is very male-centric, but it has a lot of women who made history and American just doesn't seem to have that many or any that catch my imagination!

SM


The fact that "His"tory is male centric is inherent! There are though many many strong examples of American women in history. American women lead the world in women's rights with the suffrage movement, in reforming child labor laws, worker welfare, women in the work place, domestic violence protection, birth control and reproductive freedom rights, etc. All of this had a huge hand in shaping the USA, and the world, as we know it today.

Regardless of what is focused on in history class, the stories of great American women and the incredible roles they played in the history of this country are out there! I'd love to read more about them personally! I'm going to make an effort to seek out such novels more in the future.

Great thread!

[chuck]

Why on earth would people's anger at American policy dictate what agents and publishers feel about American History. And yes that is narrow minded and ridiculous; and I suspect that people who read HF are more open minded than that. Besides, who in the hell is forcing them to read American history. I for one would suggest tho that they start with Tony Horowitz books: Confederats in the Attic, Blue Latitudes, The Devil May Care: Fifty Intrepid Americans and Their Quest for the Unknown, and A Voyage Long and STrange: rediscovering the New World to find that our history is vibrant, alive and interesting, and enough to write many books about.

Please don't misunderstand, I am very very critical of my country right now, but your comments have angered me, as Id be angered by any generalization about any country or culture that was based solely on the government's policiies. </rant>

BTW Alaric, I realize that you were simply the messenger and were just reporting what you see the reasons might be. But just the idea that people can be so idiotic infuriates me (and as I see people flocking to more of the same the last few weeks, heart breaking as well)

Tony Horwitz is a terrific writer, his NF books reads like HF interesting, well researched , and with a touch of sarcastic humor....I'm always on the look out for American HF....Read some Inglis Fletcher back in the day.....Many were about the North and South Carolina early history....Kenneth Robert"s "Northwest Passaage, Rabble in Arms, Oliver Wiswell, Arundel, and Lydia Bailey" are excellent.....Bernard Cornwell's "Redcoat" is quite good....Jimmy Carter's "Hornet's Nest"....and one of my recent favourites is a HF novel by Virginia Bernard's "Durable Fire" about a women's perspective living during the 2ND year of Jamestown, the starving times, 1622 massacre, etc....well written and researched....I prefer the colonial period, some Civil War ....I will keep looking and hoping for a few new novels....their are plenty of good stories and interesting characters in American History.....

[Misfit]

Anyone ever tried the Sparrowhawk (http://www.amazon.com/Sparrowhawk-One-Jack-Frake/dp/1931561214/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I15PJT60INWNCE&colid=3QFLLIS3JPVCN) books? Set during the revolution, I think there's six in all. It's been flitting around on my wish list for eons.

I know I've mentioned this author over at the North America discussions, but a recent discovery of mine is Celeste De Blasis. Although classified as romance she packs a lot of historical facts and details in her books. She's got a trilogy set in England and US spanning several generations of one family from early 19C through the Civil War and beyond. If you like big fat bold family sagas from the 70's/80's I'd check her out. I'm currently half way through The Proud Breed all set in old California starting around 1844.

[Vanessa]

I can remember reading and enjoying Chesapeake by James A Michener years ago, in fact I still have the book - huge it is! That takes you from the early 1700s to the present day. The same author wrote Centennial which I believe covers a similar sort of time span.

A non-fiction book I read a few years ago, which I was dubious about but ended up really enjoying, was The Devil in the White City by Erik Larsen set at the time of the World Fair of 1893. It was written in such a way that it felt like I was reading a story.

[Ludmilla]

I'm another that finds American History interesting. I read more of it when I was younger and am now trying to recall bits and pieces of it that I've forgotten over the years.

I wonder if part of the disinterest (in terms of American vs trendiness of Western European History) is that we change leaders every 4 to 8 years (or 6 years if you include state govt). It might make it seem too much to keep up with compared to reading about a time when a King might have ruled for 20 or 30 years (which I see is along the lines of what Alaric was saying above). I think another poster hit on something important, too. Much of the historical fiction written about American History is written from a male PoV. I wonder if this leaves a gap for female readers who like to read about female protagonists (personally, I don't care so much about male PoV vs female PoV, but I know some readers do).

As for anti-American sentiments, I'm noticing that more and more and admit that it bothers me as an American. I've even noticed some Guardian reviewers bringing in their personal politics when reviewing American History books, and that really annoys me. So, that trend isn't just from publishers, but reviewers seem to be following in suit, too (or, maybe I'm reading too much into some of the reviews I've read).

[Christine Blevins]

I thought I'd weigh in on this thread, as the interview the OP referred to was mine.

By my experience, and also by what I see currently selling on the market, I'd say that most agents/publishers are not as concerned with place or time, as much as they are concerned with story and writing. I have learned that the majority of fiction book buyers are women, and so stories with strong female characters/interest are enjoying a lot of success.

Back when I was querying (more than two years ago) as an unpublished writer without ANY credentials whatsoever, I had a great response, and in the end I chose between three agent offers, and had to withdraw full manuscripts from six other agents still reading. So, to those of you writing American settings, keep the faith.

I know there are readers who are drawn to, and stick with certain periods. (I know I've gone on a few binges) And maybe there are book buyers who dismiss our American history,which I find so exciting and dynamic, as boring - but so far, with a little more than a month on the shelves <knock on wood> I am happy to report MIDWIFE OF THE BLUE RIDGE is doing very well.

The interview in question:
http://readingthepast.blogspot.com/2008/09/interview-with-christine-blevins.html

[Ariadne]

I would agree with what Boswell said a while back... American history, as I learned it in high school, emphasizes facts and dates rather than people and their stories. I suffered through an entire year of the Civil War, which consisted of memorizing dates, battles, names of generals... oy.

I was pretty frustrated when I heard from a couple agents at the HNS conference that they weren't really interested in American settings, and couldn't help but think that they needed to get over their preconceived notions that American history = dull. HF (regardless of the setting) is all about people and story, rather than simply facts and dates.

With American settings, it helps if there's a hook that will draw readers in. Strong female protagonists are hot, as we know... as is the history of NYC or other major cities (Beverly Swerling's novels all seem to do well). OTOH, I do find it awfully difficult to find many readers/reviewers who'll touch a novel set in the American West, even if it has a female protagonist. The impression is that the setting is dreary, not glamorous, deals too much with hardship... and that's not what they want to read about. I wish it wasn't so, because it means there are some terrific novels people are missing out on.

[EC2]

I think there's plenty of historical fiction around with an American setting. I've read and enjoyed loads of it down the decades and continue to do so. Yes, the Tudors are the in craze at the moment - and the Regency but presumably that will fluctuate.
Any white American person has their roots in Europe so people are bound to hark back to that because roots are so vitally important. The Tudors, the Medieval period is not just European history, its early American history too if you happen to be of European descent.
As the Folk band Show of Hands says in their song 'Roots' 'Without our stories and our songs, how will we know where we come from?' That's a big part of the attraction IMO. Roots. That's why you get so many Americans into genealogy and trying to trace themselves back to various European royal families - or being defensively proud of having survived the Irish potato famine to make a new life.
My favourite American novel is Hanta Yo by Ruth Beebee Hill.

[Margaret]

What an interesting thread. I'm astonished to hear settings in American history aren't selling well, because I would have guessed just the opposite. After all, as the biggest market in the world for English-language books, American readers tend to set publishing trends, and readers do tend to be more curious about their own roots than about other people's.

The royal courts of Europe do make a particularly enticing setting. But the American Old West is, too--Lonesome Dove was a big best-seller, and rightly so. And I just reviewed David Liss's latest thriller, The Whiskey Rebels, due in bookstores at the end of the month (review at http://www.HistoricalNovels.info/Whiskey-Rebels.html). While I was somewhat disappointed by the novel, I found the early post-American-Revolution setting quite compelling. Popular nonfiction history about the U.S. has been selling well, too: David McCullough's books 1776 and John Adams were both bestsellers, I believe, and again rightly so. And then there's the Civil War period, which lends itself to so much wrenching drama. The old stand-by Gone With the Wind has been spawning sequels lately. And there's a whole new batch of Civil-War-era novels written from the perspective of black Americans' experiences, from Toni Morrison's Beloved (a fabulously good novel) to the recently released Sweetsmoke by David Fuller, which seems to be getting a fair amount of buzz.

I really think writers should concentrate on the time and place they are most passionately interested in, and write the best novel they know how to write. The "market" is fickle and capricious. By the time a new writer has devoted several years to writing a novel, then been through the process of finding an agent and a publisher, and then through the whole editing and publishing process, the "market" is more likely than not to have moved on from whatever enthusiasm was gripping it when the writer first conceived of the story. A cracking good novel in an undiscovered or out-of-style setting always has a better chance of success than a limply written "me-too" novel that appears after the craze for a particular setting has peaked.

[Divia]

Interesting points everyone has made.


I guess I"ll just have to plug away and hope and pray that its good enough to see print. *fingers crossed*

But I do agree that there are some very itneresting women in American HIstory who are never touched on and never explored. Can anyone reacall a HF novel on Susan B. Anthony?

[donroc]

Not Susan B. Anthony, but Irving Stone wrote the dual biographical novel of Abigail and John Adams, Those who Love, Rachael and Andrew Jackson, The President's Lady, and another about Jesse Fremont, Immortal Wife.

Peggy Eaton might be worth a novel.
Julia Morgan too.

[Margaret]

Divia, try Marge Piercy's Sex Wars. Luridly titled, yes, but Piercy is not really a lurid writer, and she does good historical research. It's about Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony and Victoria Woodhull, as well as a fictional Jewish character who makes condoms for a living. I'm not aware of an adult novel with Susan B. Anthony as the sole central focus, though.

[Divia]

I saw that once, but never read it. Maybe I should give it a go

[Calgal]

I can't speak for trends in the publishing industry, but I can think offhand of at least two reasons why American history might seem less enticing than European:
1. European history is much longer and much more complex.
2. The settings possible for European are much handsomer with all those stone buildings, walled cities, astonishing cathedrals, castles, and ruins.

That said, the human experiences in American history have as much potential for drama as anything in Europe. We have wars, heroism, cruelty, stupidity, genocide, power struggles, greed, idealism, you name it. We don't have the same kinds of myths, but we make up for it by incorporating myths from around the world as well as our own native American myths. What we lack in ancient buildings we make up for at least partially in scenery, not as compressed as European scenery but fairly imposing. And we do have our melting pot, our thrust toward individualism and personal freedom.

I'm hoping in a very selfish way that my own stories based on American history do find a publisher. They begin with Englishmen--more or less the outcasts of the land--creating a new way of thinking and living. Even a short time away from the class constraints of Europe created an opportunity for the people who settled this country to grow more freely. This most successful land grab had its flaws, but it is the history we have to deal with.

If the public is not so interested in American history, it may be that we need more and better books, but it is entirely chauvinist to think our 400 years under European influence can match the 2000 years of Europe.

[princess garnet]

I once found an older HF novel set in colonial Maryland in my division's collection.

There are Christian fiction novels with American settings from different time periods.

[Ash]

>I do find it awfully difficult to find many readers/reviewers who'll touch a novel set in the American West, even if it has a female protagonist.

Whats funny is that I know many readers who love that stuff. The problem I have with them is the sameness of so many; like watching some Westerns from the 50s,60s that had such pat standard plots that you could figure out who was who and what was what in a few moments. Just not for me.

[diamondlil]

What really needs to happen for American History and also all the other neglected parts of history in terms of time and place, is for a huge hit, and then, voila, we will have something similar to what we have with the Tudors at the moment.

I do think there is some American fiction being published, and I like reading it, but I do think there is a lot of merit in the point about so many of us have our backgrounds in Europe, and therefore we are drawn to European history.

[Ludmilla]

I'm just a reader, and don't concern myself too much with industry trends and marketing categories, but I would imagine the American Civil War being the period most written about. Western European History seems to have a more solid, consistent following, but I also imagine that a lot of American HF is under the radar so to speak, with much of it marketed as Historical Romance, and sneaking in as mainstream literature, but I really don't know. There are probably a lot of interesting women to be written about, but they're quite different from those who are frequently written about in European HF novels (no connections to royalty or nobility, e.g.).

[Misfit]

One thing about Civil War stories I've picked up from chit chat on the romance discussions at Amazon is that many feel we don't have much of them because publishers are so freaking PC these days they're terrified of anything dealing with the slavery issue. :mad:

[EC2]

Years ago in the very un-PC 1970's and 80's our village library was awash with slavery books - of a certain kind I have to add. Racy is perhaps a polite way of describing them! Authors were Kyle Onstott, Lance Horner and Ashley Carter.
Any bets you wouldn't find those ones about now!
Back then I read Andersonville by McKinley Cantor and loved it. There were one or two others but I've mislaid my old reading diary.:o

[Divia]

There are Christian fiction novels with American settings from different time periods.

Christian novels are the only type of novels that I find about AH. And no offense to anyoen but I find em dull as dirt. I dont like to be preached to. I read one book about Motzart's sister and it was god this and god that. :rolleyes: I dont need to be beat over the head with it.

Also, you would think that the Americna CW would have more stories about it, but not so much. Is it PC? I dunno.

[Misfit]

So far I've read two CF that I bought off the shelf at Costco without realizing they were. One was dreadful and made the list. The other Measure of a Lady was set in San Francisco and was surprisingly good. Not great but entertaining. She actually wrote some sexual tension into her characters no one was pure as the driven snow.

[Ludmilla]

My perception of how much that's been written about a particular period is probably skewed by the fact that I still don't read much new fiction. I only read a handful of new releases each year. The rest is just catching up on everything else (the usual case of too many books, too little time). Maybe political correct HF hasn't caught up with me yet (and I hope it never does)! :D

[Calgal]

This topic reminds me how much I loved historical fiction when I was a child, starting with Johnny Tremain by Esther Forbes and Hitty, by Rachel Field and moving on to all of Louisa May Alcott, though her work was more or less contemporary at the time she wrote it. My fourth grade teacher used to read to us, books like Davy Crockett, Geronimo, and Little Men, which fired me up, but it was really Hitty, which I found on my own, that got me going. There were a lot of good books for children like the Wilder books and Caddie Woodlawn I read in third grade. Maybe the publishers still find a market for Americana for children, though not for adults?

I Googled another writer whom I loved, Elswyth Thane, whose Williamsburg cycle, historical romance for teens, enthralled me when I was in high school. Forbes and Field, both Caldecott winners are still in print, but Thane is not. It made me wonder if her brand of fiction is out of style, pushed away by Tolkien and Harry Potter.

I have such pleasant memories of "soft" romance, I wonder if the sexual revolution might have made the overt sexuality of contemporary Romance less intriguing than it once might have been. Now I am really off topic.

[donroc]

The American Winston Churchill wrote successful U.S. HF for his era, from the 1770s through the Civil War. I particularly enjoyed The Crisis.

Fred Mustard Stewart wrote a series about the immigrant experience.

[nona]

I don't think it is that American history is boring, though it is somewhat, but that it is not as 'rich' as European history or Middle Eastern history. I mean rich as in turmoil, peace, battles, beheadings of Figure heads and treason was rife no matter where you went. American history has Salem Witch Trials and gunfights at the OK corral which are not boring but most of Americas history seems 'tame' otherwise.

[chuck]

I don't think it is that American history is boring, though it is somewhat, but that it is not as 'rich' as European history or Middle Eastern history. I mean rich as in turmoil, peace, battles, beheadings of Figure heads and treason was rife no matter where you went. American history has Salem Witch Trials and gunfights at the OK corral which are not boring but most of Americas history seems 'tame' otherwise.

Someone once said ' When the facts become boring print the legend'....As much as I love European History/HF.....They have had centuries to embellish the facts and legends.....

[MLE]

For me, to get really interesting you have to go back at least 300 years. If you stay in America, at least North America, that leaves you with a scarcity of material: some culture artifacts, oral history, and a lot of speculation.

Recent history tends to lean more heavily on law and group procedural decisions and less on personal leaders. Much as I prefer representative democracy to live under, it lacks the drama of absolute monarchy to read about.

[Ash]

If you define 'history' as what the rulers did, then you are right, America is a very young country with not much history to show for it. But if you include what happened to the people of a country as part of that history, then there is a wealth to choose from. I know I have learned much about America just by reading the novels about the people who live there. Definitely not boring history!

[Divia]

Thats what I'm talking about!

Books about everyday people can be so rich and interesting.

So many unique things happened in America.
Great Awakening
Utopia communties (sexual ones too)
Susan B. Anthony
Matilda Joslyn Gage (amazing woman!)
Mary Church Terell
Wiskey Rebellion
Civil War
War of 1812
Rev. War
Gold Rush
Nat Turner Rebellion
Gabrielle's REbellion
Spiritual movement

I dunno I guess if it doesnt have castles or kings people think its a dull story. Its sad really.

I understand that its not everyone's choice. And thats fine, but I would like to see more American HF.

[chuck]

I totally agree with you......With some research American History is very interesting and compelling....Each state has it's own history and unique story to tell....The East, the South, the Midwest and the West.....The stuff of books.....For me the early/colonial era is more to my liking, but I'm open to any good tale.....

[Divia]

Someone needs to writes some HF set in American and have it sell like hotcakes.

Then maybe we will get more stories in America. But its not just that like I said before something besides European history would be nice.

[nona]

I like some American HF just not all, I'm not into the Civil War or WWI or WWII doesn't mean I don't respect those that are or those who lived it, it just doesn't trip my trigger so to speak. Every once in a while I'll read some early american HF but it's colonial or early western. My father in Law and grandfather are fanatics on Civil War, they say I have no respect for my heritage, they're not all serious but not really joking either, they tend to forget I'm second generation off the ole' boat from Germany. lol.

[donroc]

We are indeed a nation of immigrants and may tend to idealize the awful places our blessed forebears wisely left.

[LCW]

We are indeed a nation of immigrants and may tend to idealize the awful places our blessed forebears wisely left.


Well that's a xenophobic statement if I ever heard one! Seeing as how there are many citizens of these "awful places" who frequent this board, a little sensitivity is called for, IMO.

[donroc]

Ilia, get off your high horse.

You had better reread the definition of xenophobia.

The European variation is what drove my ancestors to this country because they were not Russian or Christian or of the privileged castes. Perhaps yours may have been "on the other side"? Good. Defend the indefensible.

This is a HF site. I would like to think you have a less emotional approach to history. You cannot argue against the Europe of reliigous massacres and ethnic cleansing that went on for centuries. Personally, I am grateful every day that the USA was the haven for the oppressed of my grandparents' generation.

That is not xenophobic. That is fact.

Is Europe a better place today. Yes, for the most part, although there are places that still may become ethnic tinderboxes, as happened in Yugoslavia.

[LCW]

This is a HF site. I would like to think you have a less emotional approach to history.

So very condescending!!



You cannot argue against the Europe of religious massacres and ethnic cleansing that went on for centuries. Personally, I am grateful every day that the USA was the haven for the oppressed of my grandparents' generation.


Are you willing to argue that America has never had problems with oppression, racism, or inequality of it's own? What about racism against the Irish, Italians, and of course, blacks? What about religious fanaticism against Catholics, anti-semitism, or the blatant intolerance if the Puritans who founded this country?

Yes, many people came to America to escape problems in their native country...only to be faced with new problems here! My point is that to refer to other countries as "awful places" shows a lack of tolerance for other cultures and is one of the main reason's Americans have such an image problem abroad.

I'm sure your next move will be to attack my patriotism but I assure you that I love this country and am proud to be an American. I don't think that denigrating other countries or cultures while white washing my country's less than pristine past is required of a patriot, however!

[donroc]

Back on topic, I think some of the publishers are lazy and frugal. It is easier to print a book about the Tudors and such that has had success in the UK and Commonwealth than to risk publishing a novel about the USA.

Early when I was seeking an agent for my HF in the mid 1990s, I contacted Dunnett's "editor" at Knopf for advice, and she told me she was new and had "inherited" Dunnett and they were simply reprinting her.

[nona]

I do agree with you whole heartedly 1lila1, by the way hows The Horse Goddess, it's on my TBR stack.

[donroc]

So very condescending!!




Are you willing to argue that America has never had problems with oppression, racism, or inequality of it's own? What about racism against the Irish, Italians, and of course, blacks? What about religious fanaticism against Catholics, anti-semitism, or the blatant intolerance if the Puritans who founded this country?

Yes, many people came to America to escape problems in their native country...only to be faced with new problems here! My point is that to refer to other countries as "awful places" shows a lack of tolerance for other cultures and is one of the main reason's Americans have such an image problem abroad.

I'm sure your next move will be to attack my patriotism but I assure you that I love this country and am proud to be an American. I don't think that denigrating other countries or cultures while white washing my country's less than pristine past is required of a patriot, however!

Truly, what have I said to earn so much venom from you?

You are bulding a large city of straw men with words I never said. Cite where I denigrated any culture please.

Do not lecture this Jew regrading anti-Semitism relative to Europe and the USA. My life has never been in danger here because I am a Jew. My grandparents could not have said that in the old country, nor their relations who stayed and died as Jews in the camps during WWII.

Can you argue that Russia was not an awful place for Jews in the 19th-20th centuries under the Tsars? And that the USA was not better?

My grandparents said they cried when they saw the Statue of Liberty.

Why would I attack your patriotism? I do not know you. I do not do that sort of thing.

Our flaws are still in the aggregate less murderous than what has happened in Europe.

Yes, yes, I know about racism, country-club prejudice, what happened to the native Americans, etc, but I was simply stating on topic my family's origins and reasons why they came here.

You can continue to rant and reveal yourself. You truly missed the mark with me.

I will not answer you further.

[eclecticreader10]

<<And maybe there are book buyers who dismiss our American history,which I find so exciting and dynamic, as boring - but so far, with a little more than a month on the shelves <knock on wood> I am happy to report MIDWIFE OF THE BLUE RIDGE is doing very well.>>

I do not find American HF boring. In fact 4 of my all time favorite books are: The Winthrop Woman, Gone With the Wind, Roots, and To Kill a Mockingbird. Right now i'm reading The Heretic's Daughter.

I think the problem is that the timeframe for American HF is only about the last 500 years, whereas for the rest of the world the timeframe is thousands of years. Much more opportunity and subject material available.

And, by the way, I'm adding MIDWIFE OF THE BLUE RIDGE to my TBR/WL. I've seen it on Amazon before and I love stories about midwives.

[Vanessa]

If ou enjoy books about midwives, Eclectic, have you read The Birth House by Ami McKay (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/ami-mckay/birth-house.htm)? I thought it was excellent.

[Divia]

Just got MIDWIFE OF THE BLUE RIDGE and HERETIC"S DAUGHTER from the lib. I am so excited. :)

Another thing I thought about. Unless you are a student of American history and really know it. You would be unaware of the people who have shaped this country..the lesser knowns who get overshadowed by the big movers and shakers. for instance M. Gage was pushed from the suffrage movement fro her radical ideas and history has almost forgotten about her. Its only recently that she is making a comeback. And it seems that even the lesser knows in European history are still known because of their ranking.

[eclecticreader10]

If ou enjoy books about midwives, Eclectic, have you read The Birth House by Ami McKay (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/ami-mckay/birth-house.htm)? I thought it was excellent.

Yes, I have it at home, but haven't read it yet. I'll take a closer look. Thank you.

[diamondlil]

I have it at home as well, but haven't read it yet!

[JaneConsumer]

Christ on a cracker the Tudors werent the only people in history.

:D:D:D

Divia, Start writing! I would so love to say, I "know" her, when your books start selling like hotcakes!

[Divia]

I'm trying...I'm trying. ;) Workin on something now.

[JMJacobsen]

Christ on a cracker the Tudors werent the only people in history.

:D:D:D



I'm so glad I'm not the only person who's been thinking that very thing!

[JaneConsumer]

Christ on a cracker the Tudors werent the only people in history.

I'm so glad I'm not the only person who's been thinking that very thing!

Divia said it first. (I'm big on proper attribution.) :) It struck my funny bone.

[Julianne Douglas]

I know I've mentioned it several times already, but for those of you who like Revolutionary era fiction, try Someone Knows My Name by Lawrence Hill. It's the story of slavery in the colonies long before the Civil War. I'm learning so many things I never knew. Did you know that at the end of the war, the British transported shiploads of African Americans who had worked for them from New York to Nova Scotia, where they were promised freedom and land (although it doesn't appear most of them got it)? Fascinating stuff.

[Catherine Delors]

I am totally out-tudored myself.

As for American-themed fiction, look at the new book on the Hemingses. Non-fiction, but fascinating anyway. I can't believe there's no market for good HF along the same themes.

[Catherine Delors]

Your post came in as I was saving mine, Julianne. We were thinking along the same lines about the history of slavery.

And I am envious: you are a reader already, while I am still a lowly scribbler....

[Ariadne]

I, too, loved Someone Knows My Name and highly recommend it.

There's an interesting backstory about why that title was chosen for the American market. I reviewed it from an ARC and thought how odd it was that the original title, The Book of Negroes, was mentioned nowhere on the publicity material, nor was it mentioned that it was a bestseller in Canada. I'd already owned the Canadian edition, which has a very different cover. It felt to me like its past history was being kept quiet, so I made a point of mentioning it when I wrote my review (http://syndetics.com/index.php?isbn=9780393065787/blreview.html&client=vtech&type=rn12). Here's a piece I found afterward (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2008/may/20/whyimnotallowedmybooktit), written by Hill, on why the title was changed and his feelings about it.

[Misfit]

I'm so glad I'm not the only person who's been thinking that very thing!


That's three :)

[Ariadne]

I see a fair amount of historical fiction on the theme of slavery, but most falls into the "literary fiction" arena. Which means it may not be promoted specifically to historical fiction fans, even though it fits the definition just fine.

I did enjoy Barbara Chase-Riboud's Sally Hemings when I read it, maybe ten years ago. (Have you ever read it, Catherine?) I also highly recommend Elizabeth Shown Mills' Isle of Canes (http://www.amazon.com/Canes-paperback-Elizabeth-Shown-Mills/dp/1593313063/), a multigenerational saga about a family of Louisiana creoles. Elizabeth is a highly regarded and widely published genealogist, and the book is based on decades of research into the families she wrote about (Lalita Tademy used her research as a primary source when she wrote Cane River about her own family). I'm going to try to dig out the review I wrote of it and repost it on the forum.

[Catherine Delors]

No, I haven't read those, Ariadne, thanks for the tips. So far I have read non-English speaking HF about slavery, all fascinating. In particular loved The Kingdom of This World (not sure about the English title) by Alejo Carpentier, about the Haitian Revolution.

I would have to check whether it was even published in the US, because the author was Cuban. I don't know whether the embargo also applies to Cuban literature. And I guess it would be considered literary fiction too. Isn't that distinction completely silly? HF is HF, with many subgenres. There are compelling books, and less compelling books, and that's the only distinction that matters.

I really want to read The Hemingses (and started a thread in the American section, in case anyone is interested.) I understand the author did a tremendous amount of research, and part of it takes place in Paris too...

[Catherine Delors]

And I was forgetting the Confessions of Nat Turner, by Styron, of course! Great book, though controversial (rightly so, in my opinion.)

[Julianne Douglas]

But, Catherine, you're a lowly PUBLISHED scribbler, while I'm a mighty UNPUBLISHED reader. I think I'd trade. :)

[Catherine Delors]

Not any more, Julianne: I just graduated to reader! :D
As for you, I have no doubt that you will soon be published too. This new novel of yours about sex and espionage at the court of Francois I will be snapped up as soon as you complete the ms.

[diamondlil]

I, too, loved Someone Knows My Name and highly recommend it.

There's an interesting backstory about why that title was chosen for the American market. I reviewed it from an ARC and thought how odd it was that the original title, The Book of Negroes, was mentioned nowhere on the publicity material, nor was it mentioned that it was a bestseller in Canada. I'd already owned the Canadian edition, which has a very different cover. It felt to me like its past history was being kept quiet, so I made a point of mentioning it when I wrote my review (http://syndetics.com/index.php?isbn=9780393065787/blreview.html&client=vtech&type=rn12). Here's a piece I found afterward (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2008/may/20/whyimnotallowedmybooktit), written by Hill, on why the title was changed and his feelings about it.

Thanks for the link to the article! It was very interesting.

[Divia]

Isle of Canes went on my TBR pile. Thanks for the suggestion! I'm so into slavery, but then again I was taught by one of the best in his field when it came to this area of study.

[Dani]

I would like to see a novel written about Betsy Ross does any one know if One exists?

[Ash]

Oh, I remember a YA biography when I was a kid that I enjoyed. But I suspect you'd be wanting something a little more adult and current ....

[donroc]

Perhaps one reason some U.S. Historical novels are not published or even written is fear of lawsuits from descendants of those real life characters because our history is so recent.

As an example, in 1965, I sold a screenplay to a producer at Columbia. It was an epic about Wovoka and the Ghost Dance, the conflict between reactionary and assimilationist Sioux, a fictional encounter between Frederic Remington and Sitting Bull, the murder of Sitting Bull, and the massacre at Wounded Knee aka revenge of the 7th cavalry.

Two factors prevented it from being produced. The Remington estate threatened to sue anyone who used Remington (hence no novel or film about one of our most colorful artists to date); and even if we had removed his character from the story, at that time there was still bad blood between descendants of The Silent Eaters, partisans of Sitting Bull, and those of the Metal Breasts, Sioux constabulary who killed Sitting Bull when they tried to arrest him.


Perhaps we need more centuries to pass before certain stories can be told without fear of lawsuits.

[chuck]

Perhaps one reason some U.S. Historical novels are not published or even written is fear of lawsuits from descendants of those real life characters because our history is so recent.

As an example, in 1965, I sold a screenplay to a producer at Columbia. It was an epic about Wovoka and the Ghost Dance, the conflict between reactionary and assimilationist Sioux, a fictional encounter between Frederic Remington and Sitting Bull, the murder of Sitting Bull, and the massacre at Wounded Knee aka revenge of the 7th cavalry.

Two factors prevented it from being produced. The Remington estate threatened to sue anyone who used Remington (hence no novel or film about one of our most colorful artists to date); and even if we had removed his character from the story, at that time there was still bad blood between descendants of The Silent Eaters, partisans of Sitting Bull, and those of the Metal Breasts, Sioux constabulary who killed Sitting Bull when they tried to arrest him.


Perhaps we need more centuries to pass before certain stories can be told without fear of lawsuits.

That would have been a interesting film.....I was looking forward to Dee Brown's "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" The series was very disappointing....Beautiful looking film, but lacked the real content of Brown's celebrated work.....I wonder how Thomas Berger got past Custer's descendants in his "Little Big Man" novel?...Any way very interesting post....

[donroc]

Thanks, and I believe Custer had no children. I do not know about his brother, Tim.

Yes, it would have made a great film and a play only about Sitting Bull, who was an artist and poetic, as translated by a U.S. clerk at a hearing. Stanley Vestal has a great book about that era.

[chuck]

[QUOTE=donroc;6451]Thanks, and I believe Custer had no children. I do not know about his brother, Tim.

Yes, it would have made a great film and a play only about Sitting Bull, who was an artist and poetic, as translated by a U.S. clerk at a hearing. Stanley Vestal has a great book about that era.[/Q


I guess I was thinking about Libby Custer's need to keep G.A.C a fallen hero.....Thanks for the Vestal mention I will check it out......

[donroc]

Steven Ambrose is another great historian of the era. He wrote a twin biography, Crazy Horse and Custer.

David Humphreys Miller wrote an excellent work titled Ghost Dance, which also covers everything mentioned above.

[chuck]

<<And maybe there are book buyers who dismiss our American history,which I find so exciting and dynamic, as boring - but so far, with a little more than a month on the shelves <knock on wood> I am happy to report MIDWIFE OF THE BLUE RIDGE is doing very well.>>

I do not find American HF boring. In fact 4 of my all time favorite books are: The Winthrop Woman, Gone With the Wind, Roots, and To Kill a Mockingbird. Right now i'm reading The Heretic's Daughter.

I think the problem is that the timeframe for American HF is only about the last 500 years, whereas for the rest of the world the timeframe is thousands of years. Much more opportunity and subject material available.

And, by the way, I'm adding MIDWIFE OF THE BLUE RIDGE to my TBR/WL. I've seen it on Amazon before and I love stories about midwives.




Sharyn McCrumb, a North Carolina HF author has written a number of interesting Appalachia novels, "She Walks These Hills, Ghost Riders, and Rosewood Casket", to name a few......Her characters are entertaining and interesting, the Appalachia folklore and legends are weaved nicely into her story line......

[Ash]

I love her books, tho have to admit a fondness more for her take on SciFi Fan Conventions in Bimbos of the Death Sun. Its nothing at all like her other books, which is what makes it so very fun.

[chuck]

I love her books, tho have to admit a fondness more for her take on SciFi Fan Conventions in Bimbos of the Death Sun. Its nothing at all like her other books, which is what makes it so very fun.



She and Michael Moore should do a film about Sci Fi Fans and their Convention.....Yes Ms. McCrumb writes so effortlessly....I heard she wrote a book about her experiences with NASCAR....might be a fun read.....I like multi tasking authors......

[KeyWestLiterarySeminar]

I'm new to these forums and I see this post hasn't been added to in a week or so, but I had to offer my 2 cents. Through my work at the Key West Literary Seminar, I've come across a ton of great HF books written by Americans and/or taking place in America or Latin America. Thomas Mallon has written beautifully about cold war-era Washington; Geraldine Brooks on the Civil War and the culture of Concord, MA; Gore Vidal on Lincoln; Madison Smartt Bell on the Haitian Revolution; William Kennedy on the political machinations in early 20th century Albany, NY; Peter Matthiessen on South Florida; plus younger authors like Samantha Hunt on Nikolai Tesla's last years in NY; Rachel Kushner on pre-Castro Cuba; John Wray on the founding of the American west. There are also American historians who can really write, who bring us wonderful characters and compelling stories. I'm thinking of Tony Horwitz, David Nasaw, Jill Lepore, and Andrea Barrett-- to name just a few. Check out this link (http://www.kwls.org/lit/kwls_blog/historical_fiction/) for more about the Seminar and these authors.

[Ash]

Welcome! Don't worry if nothings been posted for a bit; post away and they will come!

Thanks for those authors, some of them I know (Horwitz and Brooks for starters) but some I didn't know about.

[Divia]

The problem I'm facing is that there are few good stories written by women about women. I dont want to read about civil war battles. And when we do have stories written by women about women its more romance stuff. Its annoying.

[JMJacobsen]

Don't know if someone has mentioned the new "Booth's Sister" by Jane Singer? There's been several excellent reviews on this novel that centers around John Wilkes Booth's sister and how his actions effected her life.

I haven't read it yet, but it's on it's way to me and I'm really looking forward to it.

[Divia]

Oh intereting! I hadnt heard of that one. I'll have to go on amazon to check it out!