The S-word, male vs. female authors

[Misfit]

It has been much too quiet around here so what the heck...

I have tried to start this thread several times and bailed out of it every time. I was afraid the point I was trying to make might seem more inflammatory than I intended, so I'll just throw a small ball out and see where this goes.

As a female reader, how do you react to sex as written by male authors? Do you see their female characters acting like you would? Do you roll your eyes when they have to stop and have hot sex before they break lose the chains and escape from the dungeon? Do men really really rise to the occasion every time they glimpse upon their beloveds face (and other parts)?

Since I am not a male reader I don't know what questions to ask, but as a male reader, are there sex scenes from female authors that send you up the roof?

[boswellbaxter]

I honestly haven't noticed much difference, but then most historical fiction I've read lately is by female authors. Jude Morgan and C. W. Gortner are about the only male novelists whose books I've read recently, and neither's love scenes (which I remember as rather restrained) induced any eye-rolling on my part. It might be different if I read more action-adventure-type historical fiction.

[Divia]

Well I remember Gladatrix and that was filled with rape, lesbian scenes and stuff like that. I can't recall any love/sex stuff in there. But you could totally tell the book was written by a man.

[Telynor]

There can be a real difference between authors of different genders when it comes to writing about sex in historical fiction. I've noticed that women tend to write about the emotional feelings (but not always), and men more about the physical actions (but not always). I tend to get annoyed when it comes down to what makes sloppy erotica read bad. As a judge famously said, I can't describe what it is exactly, but I know it when I see (or read) it.

To be honest, badly written sex can cause me to throw a book at the wall. Most of Bertrice Small's work does that to me these days.

[LoveHistory]

In my limited experience I would say that male writers are more straightforward about it. Less in the way of attempts at poetic description of body parts and sensations.

I don't think either gender has a monopoly on bad sex scenes. Anyone of either gender can be clueless or merely unable to write it well. Then again, as I said my experience in this area is limited.

[EC2]

I would say that there do tend to be general differences if you are using broad brush strokes. This doesn't take into account those male and female authors who cross the bridges easily. C.W. for example, as Boswell has said.
I think when it comes to the hotter stuff (erotica in fancy dress) it's usually written by women. It isn't always more emotional than male stuff, but it is often a lot more descriptive and prolonged in terms of foreplay and ummm imaginitive euphemisms. Volcano of honey anyone?
Where sex is concerned in mainstream, men tend to get down to it faster and be more visceral. Sometimes they do not get the emotional subtleties in scenes, but then they know their audience who mostly don't want the 'frilly bits.' Male writers tend to come and go (sorry!) even when there's a lot of it in the book. The first Con Igguldon Ghenghis Khan book has a preposterous rape scene - can't remember the details, but the way the girl acts afterwards is pure fantasy. The sex scenes in Pillars of the Earth are very much male fantasy driven - an observation. I am well aware that some of the hot stuff between the pages of other historicals is female fantasy driven.
I recall a supposed love scene in one of Sam Llewelyn's novels (not a historical) where the hero's tongue on the heroine's neck is described as a 'hot snail.' Euuuwwww! That's what I mean by visceral. DH Lawrence was a bit like it too. I always wanted to go and wash after reading his rude stuff.

[MLE]

An effective sex scene for readers who are past the 'first hundred exposures' stage is all about relationship. Always taking into consideration the overlapping bell-curve in male-female abilities, on average women have a better grasp of relationship subtleties than men. One of the few male writers who seems to get it right for women is Nicholas Sparks. In his stories, (whatever you may think of the plots) the sex is always about relationship first.

In novels targeted primarily at a male audience, a good sex scene usually enhances the character of the protagonist engaging in it -- show, don't tell-- he's either a creep (rape scene) or he's a super-competent studly guy all the babes fall for.

I can't say as to the erotica genre, I've done too much lay marriage counseling to want to put those images in my head. They sow the seeds of trouble for any real sex, an activity I'm rather fond of, thanks.

[Margaret]

I'd agree that both men and women can write good or bad sex scenes. With the good ones, men and women tend to write them in a similar way, with more emphasis on the emotional relationship than on the mechanics of the sex (though a physical detail that meshes well with the characters' emotions can be very hot), and both the sex and the emotions will be realistic. Bad sex scenes, I think, are characterized by a wildly unbelievable lack of realism, often because the protagonist is a thinly disguised stand-in for the author, who is writing the scene as a wish-fulfillment device.

[Misfit]

I'd agree that both men and women can write good or bad sex scenes.

I knew there was something I forgot to mention, and that is yep women can write bad sex scenes too. Let us not forget That Tudor Vampire Book *shudders*

I've just read two books by John Jakes, and while he really doesn't go overboard with the sex scenes I was a bit put off by the men always getting *hard* looking at the beautiful bad girl, i.e. even to the point of one man thinking he'd never had one so big or similar. Plus the bad girl was always grabbing at every man's crotch. After a while it gets rather repetitive and I was wishing he'd make his point in a better way.

Then I had one by a long forgotten author who had to have his pair stopping for hot sex before they get his chains off and rescue him from the dungeon. Hero watches deranged madman stripping a woman to kill her and he stops to notice her creamy back and full breasts. Couple of quotes,

“..Richard fought against the chains, craving to be closer to her, deeper into her, taste her, feel her, be her.”

“A flame was working its way up between her legs, caressing her, licking her very core into a hot swollen burst. She gasped and tasted moist leaf and lichen in the air and pressed deeper into the bed of leaves.”

And now I just hit this,

"She was always the most fluid of women. He called it silky. She stood, half-lying, against the tree as he went so easily into her, penetrating the silkiest of women, entering the silkiest of girls."

Not totally squicky, but I do think there's a fantasy factor going on at times.

[LoveHistory]

I
I've just read two books by John Jakes, and while he really doesn't go overboard with the sex scenes I was a bit put off by the men always getting *hard* looking at the beautiful bad girl, i.e. even to the point of one man thinking he'd never had one so big or similar. Plus the bad girl was always grabbing at every man's crotch. After a while it gets rather repetitive and I was wishing he'd make his point in a better way.

I see you've met Ashton. Not much else to her I'm afraid. There are some interesting points to her character development, but in Love & War she's pretty much just an egocentric nymphomaniac.

[Misfit]

I see you've met Ashton. Not much else to her I'm afraid. There are some interesting points to her character development, but in Love & War she's pretty much just an egocentric nymphomaniac.

Yep. Love and War was a bit of a disappointment, and I actually had to skim a lot to get through. A good editor needs a crack at that to pare it down.

I did enjoy Ashton at the Academy graduation when she collected her buttons :D

[Ash]

Doesn't matter who the author is or what gender, but if the scene is more about the physical act than it is moving the plot or developing the relationship, I roll my eyes and turn the page. The scenes in George RR Martin's series worked. The ones in Pillars of the Earth didn't (plus the ones in the latter were horribly violent and like EC said, filled with male fantasy)

[EC2]

The bad sex award has been announced today. Goes to a bloke. The hot snail has been joined by a companion...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/nov/30/bad-sex-award?cat=books&type=article

[Kveto from Prague]

Oy! What a topic. I see none of the other lads on this site have weighed in here. I'll not touch this subject with a ten-foot (thrusting, penetrating) pole. :D

[fljustice]

The bad sex award has been announced today. Goes to a bloke. The hot snail has been joined by a companion...

Thanks, I needed the laugh!

[Libby]

"her movement so brusque his chin bounced off her head." :confused:

[Misfit]

The bad sex award has been announced today. Goes to a bloke. The hot snail has been joined by a companion...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/nov/30/bad-sex-award?cat=books&type=article

I'm dying, thanks for that.

Like a lepidopterist mounting a tough-skinned insect with a too blunt pin he screwed himself into her.

[cw gortner]

Oy! What a topic. I see none of the other lads on this site have weighed in here. I'll not touch this subject with a ten-foot (thrusting, penetrating) pole. :D

I'm lurking . . .;)

[Margaret]

He placed his hand on the concave stretch that was her belly, letting two fingers rest in the yawn of her navel. He slipped downwards, grazing the tight skin of her waist with his fingertips.

Huh? My navel is at my waist. Sorry if that's TMI. :D

[Nefret]

I'm dying, thanks for that.

Most hilarious thing I have read all year.

[LoveHistory]

Oy! What a topic. I see none of the other lads on this site have weighed in here. I'll not touch this subject with a ten-foot (thrusting, penetrating) pole. :D

Kveto, you crack me up! :D

Unrelated: Ashton's button collecting went on for the rest of her days. The exact count is never mentioned.

[Michy]

I tried to read Jakes' books many years ago but was totaly repulsed by the character of Ashton. I think she is definitely an example of, as Margaret said above, the author writing out his own fantasy.

[Misfit]

I tried to read Jakes' books many years ago but was totaly repulsed by the character of Ashton. I think she is definitely an example of, as Margaret said above, the author writing out his own fantasy.

After Alan Savage, Jakes is pretty tame. There's a male author getting his fantasies out in the open. Eeeewwwww.

[Kveto from Prague]

Kveto, you crack me up! :D
.

thanks, Lovehistory.

[donroc]

I have resisted the self-serving temptation to offer a challenge on many of these threads until now. Read my HF, Rocamora, and see how well I did with sex/romance in context of the story. Male author, male MC, and I like to think, six interesting women, and a dramatic birthing scene.

[Leo62]

The bad sex award has been announced today. Goes to a bloke. The hot snail has been joined by a companion...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/nov/30/bad-sex-award?cat=books&type=article

oh...my...god... :eek:

And here's me thinking the Bad Sex Awards ain't what they used to be. :p

[lauragill]

When I'm writing a female character, I tend to focus on how she's feeling, whether she's into the moment or just going through the motions. Later, she might also be concerned about pregnancy, as in not wanting to conceive, or wanting a child. Writing a man is different, though. It helps that I have a male copy editor who's able to tell me up front what men are thinking before, during, and after sex.

[boswellbaxter]

Moved the eye-color posts here.

http://www.historicalfictiononline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5001

[rebecca]

Ash--"The scenes in George RR Martin's series worked. The ones in Pillars of the Earth didn't.."

I agree with Ash and I also find that unlike the TV show Martin does not spend copious paragraphs in minute detail -He gets it right. I did enjoy reading Pillars but I skimmed his sex scenes.

But I had to laugh at the below descriptions after visiting that site.

"...uncovered, her nipple poking out, upturned like the nose of the loveliest nocturnal animal, sniffing in the night(are they having sex or hunting rabbits? lol:p)
.....He hooked his fingers into her waistband, caught the elastic of her underwear and began pulling down(are these Bridget Jones bloomers? lol:p)

Misfit--""She was always the most fluid of women. He called it silky. She stood, half-lying, against the tree as he went so easily into her, penetrating the silkiest of women, entering the silkiest of girls."

Is the subject making love or sewing a skirt?lol:D... All that 'silkiness'..Now that was eye rolling.:eek:

Another author that gets it wrong is Philippa Gregory and her worst book has to be The Wise Woman...The sex scenes were just too awful. I'd quote them but I threw the book away. I do enjoy her writing but when it comes to sex scenes she needs to learn less is best.

The writers I found who handle love scenes with finesse are Elizabeth Chadwick, Sharon Penman, George Martin & Susan Higginbotham...I think what these authors manage to do is to combine intimacy and at times humour in their love scenes which I think the reader enjoys, rather than the hardcore sexathons which read as unbelievable by the reader.

One of my favourite books of all time is 'Forever Amber' a very raunchy period in time and yet the author manages to convey so much without explicit detailing.

Anyway that is my two cents worth....:)

Bec:)..PS: Misfit had me in stitches with those awful romantic quotes in another thread.:D

[MLE]

When the sex scenes make me cringe, I stop reading. I suspect I'm not alone in that. So those OTT scenes that writers used to put in to attract readers are probably costing them more that they are gaining--especially in terms of repeat customers. Ick me out once, and I won't ever come back.

[LGWalker]

OK, I admit it, I couldn't resist the title of the thread and had to poke my nose into this conversation. I have to say, I very rarely read a sex scene that I find truly well-written, male or female, and I do find the metaphors particularly amusing. But frankly, I often find male authors are terrible at writing female dialogue and vice versa, so it's no wonder that sex scenes are equally awkward. The funniest part is when you read an author's bio and they appear to be such a sweet, quiet, little bumpkin/bumpkinette .. and two pages into their book someone is ripping someone else's clothes off in a fit of passion. I guess you really can't judge a book by the cover!;)

[Misfit]

OK, I admit it, I couldn't resist the title of the thread and had to poke my nose into this conversation. I have to say, I very rarely read a sex scene that I find truly well-written, male or female, and I do find the metaphors particularly amusing. But frankly, I often find male authors are terrible at writing female dialogue and vice versa, so it's no wonder that sex scenes are equally awkward. The funniest part is when you read an author's bio and they appear to be such a sweet, quiet, little bumpkin/bumpkinette .. and two pages into their book someone is ripping someone else's clothes off in a fit of passion. I guess you really can't judge a book by the cover!;)

Thanks for jumping in with your two cents;)

Sex is a hard one to write and when it is off it's OFF. Some of us love to use our reading updates at Goodreads to share the choicest morsels so everyone can have a good giggle.

[Brenna]

Oh. My. Word. Totally didn't know this thread existed and am a little scared of reading it at work. But since I'm already here..

***Caution-words written by this person do not neccesarily represent personal history.******

I just have to say, female and male authors write totally unrealistic sex scenes 9 times out of 10. Scientifically, it would be pretty damn impossible for a woman to have an orgasm by looking at the object of her affection across the room. AND, the scenes themselves, while fulfilling every woman's fantasy (making us a little bitter about our husband at the same time) places totally unrealistic expectations. Picture reading a romance novel as a teenager and then finding the real thing...most times BIG LET DOWN!

Those are my two cents.

[SGM]

The writers I found who handle love scenes with finesse are Elizabeth Chadwick, Sharon Penman, George Martin & Susan Higginbotham...I think what these authors manage to do is to combine intimacy and

I have only read the one Sharon Penman and as far as I could see she wrote the characters in bed with the action obviously moving towards sex and afterwards you know they had sex but you don't get any of the details in the middle. I find that works for me. That is, she established the nature of the relationship through the before and after scenes and left out the bit in the middle -- which, let's face it, leaves out the tedious, repetitve and over-wrought language which many writers use. But as I read more of her work, I might discover differently.

I can only remember two "sex" scenes in the Lymond Chronicles. The first with Francis and Oonagh O'Dwyer and the second at the end with Phillipa. I thought the first one was strangely antiseptic and about the only bit I didn't like in the whole series. The ending, of course, was amazing even without the sex.

[Misfit]

I have only read the one Sharon Penman and as far as I could see she wrote the characters in bed with the action was obviously moving towards sex and afterwards you know they had sex but you don't get any of the details in the middle. I find that works for me. That is, she established the nature of the relationship through the before and after scenes and left out the bit in the middle -- which, let's face it, leaves out the tedious, repetitve and over-wrought language which many writers use. But as I read more of her work, I might discover differently.

I can only remember two "sex" scenes in the Lymond Chronicles. The first with Francis and Oonagh O'Dwyer and the second at the end with Phillipa. I thought the first one was strangely antiseptic and about the only bit I didn't like in the whole series. The ending, of course, was amazing even without the sex.

I love what Sharon does with her characters, she can have them smoking off the pages with sexual tension, but without the full blown details some authors must throw in on every other page.

[rebecca]

I now revise including Martin in my previous posts after a particular chapter in Feast For Crows(it was yuck inducing!). But I stick by the other authors in that the writers build intimacy to the characters without making the reader feel like voyers. There is also a reality to them in that there is jealousy, the couples do argue but what I feel in their books is that the author respects their characters. It is totally different with what I term bonkathon books where there is no intimacy, no real relationships and the characters are either perfect or the sex scenes unrealistic.

Misfit describes perfect what I mean, 'I love what Sharon does with her characters, she can have them smoking off the pages with sexual tension...'
This is what grabs the reader and not how many positions they can get into and then a vivid description of it all(I mean this isn't the sex olympics)! I will stick with the less is best, because it's true for me anyway.

Bec:)

[The Czar]

what men are thinking during, and after sex.

Usually something like this?

" Not yet, not yet, um... baseball... um... grandma? OH NO! TOO FAR THE OTHER WAY... um ah... The holy roman empire was neither holy, nor roman, nor... oh dammit...

Ok, how soon can I get up and leave..."

[LoveHistory]

Really, The Czar? I may not be a man but I know not all men think like that before, during, and/or after.

Though I've wondered why the Holy Roman Empire was named that myself.

[The Czar]

Really, The Czar? I may not be a man but I know not all men think like that before, during, and/or after.

Though I've wondered why the Holy Roman Empire was named that myself.


Just joking around. :D

[wendy]

Strangest part of an otherwise interesting book - 1000 WHITE WOMEN (written by a man) has a very odd belief that the female orgasm starts in the stomach. Hmmm. Would any other ladies care to comment?!

[rebecca]

Strangest part of an otherwise interesting book - 1000 WHITE WOMEN (written by a man) has a very odd belief that the female orgasm starts in the stomach. Hmmm. Would any other ladies care to comment?!

In Australia, we call it wind:D:DLOL.

Bec:)

[LoveHistory]

Strangest part of an otherwise interesting book - 1000 WHITE WOMEN (written by a man) has a very odd belief that the female orgasm starts in the stomach. Hmmm. Would any other ladies care to comment?!

Would that be the butterflies in said stomach?

[DianeL]

Was the name of this thread changed because the word sex is supposed to be dirty ... ?

[boswellbaxter]

Was the name of this thread changed because the word sex is supposed to be dirty ... ?

We're not prudes, but someone pointed out that the title could be a little awkward if someone was looking over one's shoulder at work.

[MLE]

I entirely forgot what this thread was named, so when I saw it pop up today I thought the s-word was sh*t!

Which reminds me of a story-- my friend's son, age six, came home from a birthday party and announced, "Mom, I know what the s-word is. Kenny said it at the party."
My friend did not want her son repeating foul language, but she was very surprised that Kenny would have known, let alone used it, at that venue. So she said, "Honey, why don't you tell me what Kenny said."
Little David put his hand up to her ear and whispered, "Stupid."
She had to work very hard not to laugh!

[LoveHistory]

That's cute. Reminds me of a friend who said he was going to tell his kids the "f word" is fibromyalgia.

[Alisha Marie Klapheke]

You all are cracking me up. I used to teach 3rd grade and one day two girls asked to speak to me privately. They said someone called another girl the worst thing ever. Blushing like little tomatoes, they FINALLY told me this terrible, earth-shattering swear word. Heifer. Ha! I gave them a hug and almost burst trying not to laugh at the sweeties.

[MLE]

Funny, Alisha! One wonders what they thought 'heifer' meant. The mind boggles...

[Alisha Marie Klapheke]

I did, of course, inform them that if they ever heard anyone call me 'heifer' there would be h-e-double hockey sticks to pay!

[fljustice]

Reminds me of when my (then) 6-year old daughter tried to flip me the bird using her index finger. I burst out laughing and she almost burst into tears. I corrected her technique, taught her several cultural variations, and warned her she should never use any of them with an adult. I don't think she's used it since (at least not with me!)

[LoveHistory]

Reminds me of when my (then) 6-year old daughter tried to flip me the bird using her index finger. I burst out laughing and she almost burst into tears. I corrected her technique, taught her several cultural variations, and warned her she should never use any of them with an adult. I don't think she's used it since (at least not with me!)

There are cultural variations? Apparently my education is incomplete.

[MLE]

In Europe, the variation is the victory sign turned backwards. My Pakistani friends put the thumb and forefinger together and demonstrate the action with the forefinger of the opposite hand. But not around me, of course.;)

[DianeL]

I've certainly heard heifer used as an insult for women, so can see how a kid hearing it would class it with b*tch or the like. But that IS kind of adorable.

Faith, am I horribly jaded? My first thought was "Oh yes she has" ... It is too cool you gave her the full education along with the prohibition, though. I just remember my response to knowledge (especially anything which seemed "forbidden" even if not truly catastrophic): share it early, share it often, holler for credit when the other kids on the playground share it too ... :)


MLE, I'm laughing pretty happily here at the association with The S Word - it does make logical sense. boswellbaxter, maybe this thread just got dirtier! ;)

[Madeleine]

Yep I'd say heifer was up there with the b word as being derogatory to women under some circumstances. Rather sweet in the context used here though.

[fljustice]

In Europe, the variation is the victory sign turned backwards. My Pakistani friends put the thumb and forefinger together and demonstrate the action with the forefinger of the opposite hand. But not around me, of course.;)

There's also biting your thumb and the more vigorous clenched fist raised in front of the body and crossed at the elbow with the other arm. And DL...I'm sure she's used it...left out the sarcastic emoticon! :rolleyes:

[TiciaRoma]

Often when I start a new book I will turn to a random page well along in the story to get a taste of how things develop. I started a new book last night which came very close to becoming a non-starter. The first three sentences on page 208.

"once we started we did not stop.Martha and I f****d on Sundays, we f-d in the lodging and behind a barrel. in daylight in the woods, in the dark in the woods, we were the beast with two backs in the fields, and flat on top of each other in the bakery. . ."

The author is male. The book is Odo's Hanging, about the Bayeux tapestry. It was highly recommended and I am very interested in anything on that topic. So I started at the beginning. It is better, and more interesting than my sampling would indicate.

But there IS a difference.

I remember first realizing that difference in HS reading Faulkner's Light in August--some passage, after a midnight outdoor tryst, where the MC's thoughts were something along the lines of he was going to leave because he realized there was nothing between his body and the cold damp grass but a thin slip of a girl . . .

[EC2]

You all are cracking me up. I used to teach 3rd grade and one day two girls asked to speak to me privately. They said someone called another girl the worst thing ever. Blushing like little tomatoes, they FINALLY told me this terrible, earth-shattering swear word. Heifer. Ha! I gave them a hug and almost burst trying not to laugh at the sweeties.

Hmm... I remember a friend telling me about a teacher friend who went with some inner city kids to look around a farm. When later she was asking the children what they'd most enjoyed one child said that they'd liked the 'little fuckers' the best. The teacher questioned this and the child replied 'The farmer called them little 'heifers' but we knew what he meant! So perhaps the 'heifer' actually meant 'effer' ;)