Sex in books too much or not enough?

[Misfit]

I'm starting this thread as myself and a couple of my Amazon threads got going on about it over at one of my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/review/R15G79V71VVNZK/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg5?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdPage=5&cdSort=oldest) (feel free to drop in and comment there) and I thought I'd carry it further over here.

Are writers putting more sex into books because the publishers tell them to because that's what they think the readers want? Or are the writers putting more in because that's what they think the readers want? Is more sex really what the readers want?

Anyway, we have so many authors (and readers) participating here I thought I'd start the topic and see what everyone else thought. Personally, I think a good author can set the tension and attraction between a couple without all that graphic overly detailed play by play that's become so common in the romance genre.

Also, I recall seeing posted on a board somewhere a link to a site that rated romance books according to steaminess levels. Any one know where I can find that? My friend Judy would be forever grateful.

[Divia]

Well, sex sells so I'm guessing that publishers want more sex. Of course I'm not a published author and I'm just speculating.

I like sex in my books but sometimes there is overkill. White Rose Rebel, or whatever it was called was a book that seemed mroe like a romance novel than a book of historical fiction. An author has to walk a fine line there. but what are they to do if their publisher wants more sex?

[Juniper]

I'm not a big lover of romance novels. Yes, the majority of the books I read (HF of course) have a romantic theme in them somewhere but it's not so prominant as to make me think of the book as a romance novel. Yet that's just me; I've heard many differing opinions on what constitutes as a romance novel.

As for the amount of sex in a novel, in my own opinion I actually enjoy HF novels with sex in them. As long as it's not overly violent sex, then I don't mind at all if there are a lot of sex scenes in a book. If there happens to be a romantic theme in a book then sex scenes to me just make the book more realistic. Or even if the sex occurs outside of a romantic theme, as long as I feel the sex is in keeping with the protagonist and the context of the book, then I have no problem.

I haven't read that many books where I've felt the sex was in there for no good reason. The only genre of books I would say that it would feel 'natural' for there to be, say, a sex scene in every chapter would be self-proclaimed 'erotica'. If that were the case, then it's what you would expect! :p

[LCW]

I like a good steamy novel but I can do without too much detail. I like the amount of sex in SKP's novels and the way she describes it. I do read HR but even in those it needs to be used sparingly and well done.

Personally, I think it's a vicious cycle. Sex does sell so publishers most likely want it but then I think it "wets" (pardon the pun :eek: ) the public's appetite for more and you have a vicious cycle going on.

[Ash]

I don't care for books marketed as romance novels, tho I certainly enjoy romance in books I read. I can take or leave sexual details; I have a very vivid imagination, and with just a few words know well what is about to happen or what has already happened in that time! If an author is good, she can write the details in such a way that it only adds to the story and the relationship of the couple in the story. But I don't need lots of hot steamy sex, it does nothing for me and I am apt to just flip the pages. Explicit details of rape horrify me, and I am more apt to toss the book aside than to read further

[Spitfire]

Sex does sell, so I can see why more is being used in novels. Now, in the historical fiction gendre, I do enjoy romance if that is what the story calls for historically speaking. Whether the author choses to be graffic in describing sex scenes, that is not what I am actually looking for personally. A good author can create the sexual tension and chemistry between a couple without having to get down and dirty if you know what I mean. In historical fiction, I am mainly looking for a good novel, with historical accuracy (at least somewhat accurate) and with characters with some depth to them. Whether they have sex or not is not the important thing. Now if the gendre is Historical Romance, I think it is appropriate to have the graffic sex scenes, cause frankly, that is what you expect, especially if you have the bodice ripping covers!

[Spitfire]

Also, I recall seeing posted on a board somewhere a link to a site that rated romance books according to steaminess levels. Any one know where I can find that? My friend Judy would be forever grateful.

Yup found it, at least I hope this is the one you were thinking about. It is the All About Romance site. Here is the link.

http://www.likesbooks.com/top1002007results.html

[Divia]

I have to say I make a point not to read romance historical fiction like ash. I dont mind a little dirty stuff in my books, but I dont think I could read pages upon pages of sex.

[boswellbaxter]

I prefer books where more, rather than less, is left to the imagination. Sometimes what's left unsaid can be far sexier than having every last detail spelled out for the reader.

[Lady of the Forest]

I know a lot of people complain about sex within books, but I cannot say it really bothers me. I will not enjoy a book less becasue it does not have sex scenes in it, but just as well, with books that do, I really do not mind at all. It seems silly to me when a book really over does it, but I have only had that happen once, when it got too much, where I just thought it was stupid. But other than that, either way I don't really care.

[wendallpauls]

I've read a few posts on this topic repeating the common refrain of "sex sells". Well, yes - it does; but the response I have to that is precisely who is buying? If authors think they have to include steamy sexual liasons between their characters to sell their book, they obviously don't hold much confidence in their ability to spin a successful narrative or a compelling plot. And as far as romance goes - though I might get chided for this comment - what does sex have to do with romance? Is not romance the chemistry that results between a male and female character when there is an unexplainable attraction between the two that is conflicted by their obvious differences?

Sex has its place in books, just as sex has its place in real life. Without it, after all, none of us would be here to talk about what place sex has in the books we read. But if it merely something used to titilate a bored reader into paying attention, it defeats the whole purpose of any creative soul taking up pen to paper and laying down the words that would become the story that grabs the hearts and minds.

[wendallpauls]

I forgot to add in my previous post - the book I am currently reading, Stephenie Meyer's "Twilight", some 250 pages into it I have been very impressed by the lack of sexual encroachment between the two main characters, where other stories would most certainly have these two teenagers in bed together already. It creates more of a romance between the two because they can't really touch each other as readily as two normal teenage kids might.

Of course, I might be sticking my foot in my mouth here, not knowing if this respect and restrain both are showing for the other is done away with by a sexual liason somewhere past page 250, but upto this point in the tale it has been a treasure to read of a romantic relationship between two characters based upon actual attraction to the people these two are, rather than the physical personas they show in the presence.

[EC2]

As always it's a matter of balance and the sex being appropriate to the book in question. In a historical, I expect the characters to be aware of the social mores and taboos of their time and to behave within those expectations (one of the reasons I sometimes have problems with romances - although not all of the time. It depends on the author). I prefer the bedroom door not to be shut in my face; I like to see some intimacy between the characters because the way they act and react in bed will point up aspects of their personality and their relationship with each other, It's also a form of closure on what has gone before.
Distilling all this, I am fine with the door being closed. I prefer it being left open, but the scene needs to be well written and of relevance to the novel. Gratuitous, anachronistic sex/attitudes to sex, will lead to a wall bang.

[EC2]

I forgot to add in my previous post - the book I am currently reading, Stephenie Meyer's "Twilight", some 250 pages into it I have been very impressed by the lack of sexual encroachment between the two main characters, where other stories would most certainly have these two teenagers in bed together already. It creates more of a romance between the two because they can't really touch each other as readily as two normal teenage kids might.



Absolutely. This is one of the most powerful books I have read re the build up of sexual tension and with nothing going on below the neck! It captures those first hormonal, swimmy feelings of adolescence perfectly. Whatever one's overall opinion of Stephenie Meyers (and I like her material a lot) I think that authors can learn a massive amount from the way she builds that tension into the novel and readers seem to appreciate it.

[Leyland]

I'd like to read a range from a few paragraphs up to two pages describing tender foreplay and distinct sexual tension between the two characters that clearly tells me what is going to happen once the door closes. I'll understand their relationship well enough without further dissertation! I don't want minute details regarding intercourse that go on for pages.

I'd also rather not read much at all if the female character is being raped. Simply setting the scene by describing the assailant's violent intentions and the victim's terror is enough. I don't need a graphic image in my mind of the act itself.

[Misfit]

I'd like to read a range from a few paragraphs up to two pages describing tender foreplay and distinct sexual tension between the two characters that clearly tells me what is going to happen once the door closes. I'll understand their relationship well enough without further dissertation! I don't want minute details regarding intercourse that go on for pages.

I'd also rather not read much at all if the female character is being raped. Simply setting the scene by describing the assailant's violent intentions and the victim's terror is enough. I don't need a graphic image in my mind of the act itself.


Perfectly said. I don't mind some tension and lead up to the bedroom door but I don't want all the details either. I'm currently reading one that while classified in the romance genre it too well written with good historical details that it saddens me she has to throwing too much sexual detail into it. She's established several couples as happily married with a good sex life. Do I really need to read that she's grabbing his you-know-what over and over? In those instances less is more. Oh well, to each their own.

[Misfit]

But if it merely something used to titilate a bored reader into paying attention, it defeats the whole purpose of any creative soul taking up pen to paper and laying down the words that would become the story that grabs the hearts and minds.


Well said WP. I know some of you here don't read romance books because of that but there really is a difference between a well written book leading up to the tension between two characters and those written solely for the purpose of constant sex to titillate the reader. I prefer the former, they can be good entertaining reads when one can find them.

[Spitfire]

[QUOTE=Misfit;3169]Well said WP. I know some of you here don't read romance books because of that but there really is a difference between a well written book leading up to the tension between two characters and those written solely for the purpose of constant sex to titillate the reader. QUOTE]

That hit's the nail on the head you two! That's right, what does sex have to do with romance! I would much prefer to have a well written book developing a keen emotional tension between a couple, to a book that is just throwing sex in there for the titilation factor. Now, like EC says, if the bedroom door is left open (in a well written book), you can learn alot about the characters by how they respond to each other sexually. But these scenes should be appropriate to the story plot and written with the characters personalities in mind. Some books I've read, you can almost predict how the sex scene is going to play out...like they just cookie cuttered the sex scenes and dispersed them liberally throughout the novel. Ugh!:(

[Ash]

[QUOTE=Misfit;3169]
That hit's the nail on the head you two! That's right, what does sex have to do with romance! I would much prefer to have a well written book developing a keen emotional tension between a couple, to a book that is just throwing sex in there for the titilation factor. Now, like EC says, if the bedroom door is left open (in a well written book), you can learn alot about the characters by how they respond to each other sexually. But these scenes should be appropriate to the story plot and written with the characters personalities in mind. Some books I've read, you can almost predict how the sex scene is going to play out...like they just cookie cuttered the sex scenes and dispersed them liberally throughout the novel. Ugh!:(

Couldn't have said it better myself, yes! (btw Misfit, the reason I don't read Romance novels is not so much the sex scenes tho thats part of it. Its that they either don't have an interesting story, or the writing is horrid. But if you could give me a few examples of ones that would change my mind, Im all ears. BTW the best Historical Romance in my opinion is Far Pavillions. Little sex beyond kissing, but the tension and chemistry was awesome

BTW I think the above quote goes for violence in books. I can handle Penman and Cornwell's details of violence in battle or real life because it fits the story. I can't handle violence for its own sake, esp torture when there is no reason to include it.

[Misfit]

[QUOTE=Spitfire;3199]

Couldn't have said it better myself, yes! (btw Misfit, the reason I don't read Romance novels is not so much the sex scenes tho thats part of it. Its that they either don't have an interesting story, or the writing is horrid. But if you could give me a few examples of ones that would change my mind, Im all ears. BTW the best Historical Romance in my opinion is Far Pavillions. Little sex beyond kissing, but the tension and chemistry was awesome

BTW I think the above quote goes for violence in books. I can handle Penman and Cornwell's details of violence in battle or real life because it fits the story. I can't handle violence for its own sake, esp torture when there is no reason to include it.

Ash, I so agree with you about The Far Pavilions. Ash and Juli just smoked off the pages and I just cried at Ash's pain when he had to watch Juli be married, let alone the whole suttee thing. It doesn't get better than that.

As for romance, when I'm in the mood I do not go for the currently printed stuff. Might be good, but I'm not willing to risk it. Here's (http://www.amazon.com/Books-that-are-too-good-to-be-classified-as-a-straight-romance/lm/ROOCOQNRRJK0X/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_full) a list I did on Amazon of romances that stretch the genre, you might find some there.

I would highly recommend Olivia and Jai (you do like stories in India I know that much). Roberta Gellis' Roselynde series is good and a recent find of mine is an author called Celeste De Blasis. She packs a lot of historical detail into her books, and though the sex at times is a bit over the top IMO (just skip past it) it's worth the effort. Take a look at The Tiger's Woman and The Proud Breed. I've got TPB on my pile, it's set in old California.

[LCW]

Olivia and Jai is so good! Although I consider it more romantic historical fiction that a real "historical romance" novel. Either way it was wonderful! I hated Jai right up until the last 20 pages.

One of the best examples of a sexy steamy scene without being crude or over the top is in SKP's The Reckoning when Lewellyn and Ellen meet for the first time three years after she is captured by King Edward. That was just smokin' hot without any clothes coming off at all! It's one of my favorite steamy scenes ever!

[Ash]

One of the best examples of a sexy steamy scene without being crude or over the top is in SKP's The Reckoning when Lewellyn and Ellen meet for the first time three years after she is captured by King Edward. That was just smokin' hot without any clothes coming off at all! It's one of my favorite steamy scenes ever!

Oh gawd yes (even tho the end result was so damn sad).

I have Olivia and Jai on order, should get to that sooh.

[Misfit]

One of the best examples of a sexy steamy scene without being crude or over the top is in SKP's The Reckoning when Lewellyn and Ellen meet for the first time three years after she is captured by King Edward. That was just smokin' hot without any clothes coming off at all! It's one of my favorite steamy scenes ever!


I agree on that one as well. There was some serious chemistry going on there.

[MLE]

WP's comment on sex versus romance is certainly true for me. I have bred llamas for years, and sex per se is something right out of a veterinary manual. Without a romantic context, it is just so boring.

Even within a romantic context, for me it has to have some hope of adding to the character's lives beyond the moment to be emotionally effective. Years of working with kids who have no daddy on the scene due to that urge for instant gratification gives me a context that makes all that 'steamy' stuff quite sour. Altho from the what sells' side, before I had that context I suppose I was as titillated as any. Problem is, reading and dwelling on A leads to B. In the case of writing denigrating or potentially destructive sexuality for immediate gratification, I suppose it will make money if you don't care who gets hurt.

But at the end of the day, social accountability and personal consequences are also important to people, and they are willing to buy accordingly. That is why organic products and 'green' products are finding a market niche, although they tend to be more expensive than their counterparts. That is why people who used to like bingeing on sweets can start refusing them even though they love the taste.

All that started with awareness on the part of the consumer. So I guess I'll keep on plucking that one string on my guitar. Which means,I like sex in books to be pictured within a life-enhancing context, something that if the reader took into their worldview and imitated it would be good for them. In the same vein, since not all situations are ideal, tell the tales about destructive behavior with the real-life consequences emphasized rather than ignored or 'spun' to make it seem they are okay choices after all.

My classic example of stories in this vein (neither sexual, but imagine where an R-rated version of each story would go in that regard to get the context) are both Disneys: The Little Mermaid (stupid premises to build a life on) versus Beauty and the Beast (pretty much good ideas and realistic consequences throughout.)

[Ash]

>That is why people who used to like bingeing on sweets can start refusing them even though they love the taste.

But why would one want to? Hee. I do know what you are saying, people do have a choice in what they do, and have to take the consequences of that choice. I expect to see those consequences in some way played out in what I read, no matter the choice or situation (not just sex)

[MLE]

>That is why people who used to like bingeing on sweets can start refusing them even though they love the taste.

But why would one want to? Hee.
Type II diabetes?

[princess garnet]

This thread looks familiar to one that was on PG's board.

I appreciate authors like Plaidy who are implicit about it in the story. So long as it's tastefully described, very well.

[Ash]

Type II diabetes?


Um, I was kidding. My down fall is dark chocolate, and ice cream. The former I dole out to myself in small pieces. For ice cream I either get frozen yogurt or the sugar free kind. So I do try to watch it. But now and then....

[LCW]

My down fall is dark chocolate, and ice cream.

I'm a dark chocolate person myself. I was born with a sweet mouth, nevermind a sweet tooth! I love all sweets but my downfall are the sweet pastry type items. Cakes, doughnuts, tarts, ugh!!! Give me strength!! :o

[Misfit]

Careful now, you go OT and you never know what the mods are going to call the new thread. Remember the one about the pets? :D:D:D

[Hoopking]

Being one of the authors you are talking about, I feel that if you have a book that has a romantic flare to it there should be at least one scene that depicts the feelings that burn in the hearts of the two lovers. If it is not there whether or not you have an imagination you really can't know for sure what the author is feeling and how they would show their feelings to someone they deeply loved. When I am writing those scenes I really get involved in the moment of the two lovers and hope that it is portrayed to the reader. Not in a lude manner but in the heat of passion between two charaters that the reader has become a part of.

[Spitfire]

I feel that if you have a book that has a romantic flare to it there should be at least one scene that depicts the feelings that burn in the hearts of the two lovers. Not in a lude manner but in the heat of passion between two charaters that the reader has become a part of.

Perfect! Nailed it on the head! It's all about the chemistry!

[Hoopking]

I think the diffence in a movie sex scene is, no matter how good the movie is and how much you get into it, those are still two people you are not completely connected to and I prefer the door closed. A book on the other hand, for me, I actually become the hero and have no problem delving into the bedroom with the woman I love. Not that I think the actual sexual act should be introduced, but all the tension upto the final moment draws me into the book completely. Then the after time of carressing and real love making which has nothing to do with a sexual act. Sex is not love as we all know, but love produces sexual activity.

[Volgadon]

The tension is fine, I would prefer the doors closed during. Before and after is fine.