The King's Mistress by Emma Campion

[Miss Moppet]

I'm about to start this & Leo62 has kindly volunteered to join me! Feel free to keep us company, anyone and everyone.

Emma Campion is a new author for me - she's also written a historical mystery series as Candace Robb, but I haven't read any of them. I wanted to read this because it was a Royal Mistress title, the second I've read this year, after The Time of Singing. I'll be starting to read tonight so will post first impressions tomorrow. This is a pretty big book (over 500 pages in my edition) so it'll also count towards the Chunkster Challenge.

Expectations: I'm anticipating a pretty solid background as Campion has written about the medieval period before. The book is about Alice Perrers, mistress to Edward III, and I really don't know much about her, either from fiction or non-fiction. I remember she had a bit part in Anya Seton's Katherine, but was portrayed in rather a negative light, as an acquisitive hussy (as opposed to that other royal mistress, Katherine Swynford herself, who was portrayed as totally disinterested). Expecting a more sympathetic portrait here.

ETA: there will be spoilers in this thread, but I'll try to remember to post the page no. I'm up to, so as to give some warning!

[Leo62]

I've just read the first chapter & enjoyed it. Alice Perrers is pretty new territory for me too, and I'm looking forward to revisiting the 14th century - haven't read about this period in a long while.

She's already introduced Geoffrey Chaucer and I hope he'll be playing a key supporting role - should add some interest!

One moan already though - I had a look at the map of Alice's properties and she's got Eltham Palace in the wrong place (i.e. north of the river)! I've a feeling Havering may be wrong too... Sack the mapmaker :D ;)

I like her writing style - elegant and un-purple - and Alice seems like an engaging character. Using the 1st person is working so far; you get a sense of an older, worldly Alice looking back ruefully on her naive teenage self.

[Miss Moppet]

She's already introduced Geoffrey Chaucer and I hope he'll be playing a key supporting role - should add some interest!


The synopsis for Vanora Bennett's forthcoming The People's Queen (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peoples-Queen-Vanora-Bennett/dp/0007311214) suggests Chaucer is portrayed in that book as Alice's lover. Have no idea whether this is based on any contemporary source or not.

[Leo62]

Ick what a horrible cover! Sounds like quite a different take on the story...

[Miss Moppet]

Ick what a horrible cover! Sounds like quite a different take on the story...

I don't like the cover either. Looks like girl was going to do a cartwheel, then changed her mind. Some people liked it though.

[Vanessa]

I have this book, so will post my comments when I get round to reading it!

[EC2]

I don't like the cover either. Looks like girl was going to do a cartwheel, then changed her mind. Some people liked it though.

I got sent that cover as a suggestion to be used on The Leopard Unleashed and they have actually used a different shot from that same photoshoot (it's a backlist title, so not as much budget on the design), but when I saw that cover I said 'Looks as if she's saying 'Damn, why do people let their dogs crap in the hall?' She really looks as if she's examining something nasty on the hem of her gown.

[Miss Moppet]

I got sent that cover as a suggestion to be used on The Leopard Unleashed and they have actually used a different shot from that same photoshoot (it's a backlist title, so not as much budget on the design), but when I saw that cover I said 'Looks as if she's saying 'Damn, why do people let their dogs crap in the hall?' She really looks as if she's examining something nasty on the hem of her gown.

Hoho, couldn't agree more!

I've just read the first chapter & enjoyed it. Alice Perrers is pretty new territory for me too, and I'm looking forward to revisiting the 14th century - haven't read about this period in a long while.

She's already introduced Geoffrey Chaucer and I hope he'll be playing a key supporting role - should add some interest!

One moan already though - I had a look at the map of Alice's properties and she's got Eltham Palace in the wrong place (i.e. north of the river)! I've a feeling Havering may be wrong too... Sack the mapmaker

I like her writing style - elegant and un-purple - and Alice seems like an engaging character. Using the 1st person is working so far; you get a sense of an older, worldly Alice looking back ruefully on her naive teenage self.

I've now read the first chapter too and enjoyed it, although I think it's slightly overwritten and although all the focus is on Alice's forthcoming marriage at the moment, I'm really waiting for her to meet the King so the story can start properly.

[Leo62]

I've now read the first chapter too and enjoyed it, although I think it's slightly overwritten and although all the focus is on Alice's forthcoming marriage at the moment, I'm really waiting for her to meet the King so the story can start properly.

I've been peeking (:eek:) and I think you might have quite a long wait! :D

I don't mind the leisurely pace, am in the right mood...can see why people might get impatient with it tho'

[Miss Moppet]

I've been peeking (:eek:) and I think you might have quite a long wait! :D

I don't mind the leisurely pace, am in the right mood...can see why people might get impatient with it tho'

I don't mind it as a rule but am slightly worried I'm not going to finish it before the library wants it back! :eek:

[Miss Moppet]

Read a bit more at lunch. I have to say it's still feeling (a) slow and (b) bland. This is at least partly due to my personal preference as to subject matter though. Domestic stuff (Alice gets betrothed; Alice orders some new frocks) can bore me but as soon as there was a mention of Isabella of Valois, I perked up. Hope it will start getting a bit more political now.

[Leo62]

LOL we're on exactly the same page!

Having read a bit more, I must say I agree that it's a bit slow and a bit overwritten. That said, I enjoy all the domestic stuff; family tensions, details about fabric, the daily routine.

I'm kinda approaching this from the opposite direction to you, Miss M - medieval politics and machinations don't really interest me (and I don't usually read mistress books), but ordinary life and family drama does. I wonder if this book will manage to satisfy both of us? More likely it'll end up frustrating both of us. :D

[Miss Moppet]

LOL we're on exactly the same page!

Having read a bit more, I must say I agree that it's a bit slow and a bit overwritten. That said, I enjoy all the domestic stuff; family tensions, details about fabric, the daily routine.

I'm kinda approaching this from the opposite direction to you, Miss M - medieval politics and machinations don't really interest me (and I don't usually read mistress books), but ordinary life and family drama does. I wonder if this book will manage to satisfy both of us? More likely it'll end up frustrating both of us. :D

Why do you think Alice's mother is so hostile to her match with Janyn?

Janyn is a lot older than Alice so I'm wondering if Alice's mother didn't have some kind of history with Janyn herself...Could be completely off the mark there though.

[Leo62]

Why do you think Alice's mother is so hostile to her match with Janyn?

Janyn is a lot older than Alice so I'm wondering if Alice's mother didn't have some kind of history with Janyn herself...Could be completely off the mark there though.

No I think you're on the right track. She keeps going on about how beautiful the mother is and she's portrayed as vain and self-absorbed - it makes sense - she feels like she's married beneath her and is jealous of her daughter.

We'll see...

[Chatterbox]

Turns out that Emma Campion's US publisher is also my publisher (and Michelle's); I got an ARC of this today, and apparently she is now at work on her next book as Emma Campion. No word on the subject, however...

[EC2]

I received an ARC of this still in the double spacing typing paper binding and the darned thing was the size (and weight) of a house with a required deadline of 6th April - no way I could get it read by then, and it would have finished off my wrists. I will still read it at some point - it's just knowing where to put it while I'm doing so.

[robinbird79]

I am looking forward to this one. :)

[Leo62]

Now on p.100 and the story is picking up pace...a bit.

This feels like it's going to be a leisurely cruiseliner of a read, with lots of atmosphere and detail and the emphasis on domestic drama rather than thigh-slapping action. It's a very "feminine" book, in that it focuses on the limitations of the female characters' world, much in the same way as Tracy Chevalier's Girl with a Pearl Earring (but without her economy and elegance of style!).

Pleasures so far include Alice's deliciously nasty mother and her too-good-to-be-true new husband's dangerous secret involving Queen Isabella (I reckon he's been doing a bit of spying for her in France and Lombardy - what do you think Miss M? ;)).

[Miss Moppet]

Now on p.100 and the story is picking up pace...a bit.

This feels like it's going to be a leisurely cruiseliner of a read, with lots of atmosphere and detail and the emphasis on domestic drama rather than thigh-slapping action. It's a very "feminine" book, in that it focuses on the limitations of the female characters' world, much in the same way as Tracy Chevalier's Girl with a Pearl Earring (but without her economy and elegance of style!).

Yup, definitely needs some economy. You probably haven't quite got there yet, but there's much ado about all the preparations for Queen Isabella's arrival on a visit, etc, etc, and really the scene doesn't start until Isabella is in the courtyard dismounting her horse. I felt that was the point at which it should have opened. I've recently been re-reading William Goldman's books about screenwriting and he says that screenplays should begin as late as possible into the story and each scene should open as late as possible in the scene. Of course screenplays are a totally different medium but I have to wonder if this isn't good advice for novels too. I like detail, but I prefer one bit of it which is really necessary to the narrative rather than a load of stuff which is interesting, but not all that necessary.

Another possibility: I'm not doing justice to this book because I know I have to get through it pretty fast. I HAVE to read 60 pages a day to get it back to the library in time, and I HATE reading like that. I am reading every word, but I have to confess I'm skimming the bits with Alice's family, the horseriding, etc.

Pleasures so far include Alice's deliciously nasty mother and her too-good-to-be-true new husband's dangerous secret involving Queen Isabella (I reckon he's been doing a bit of spying for her in France and Lombardy - what do you think Miss M? ;)).

Yes, it has to be something like that, doesn't it? This is not a period I know well at all so I'm looking forward to learning more about it. I did like the description of Isabella in her black leather riding habit. Alice is obviously going to get much more involved with the royal family and I'm wondering how that's going to happen.

[Leo62]

Thing is, in a movie you can create an impression of sumptuous frocks and decor in about two seconds - in a novel you have to do it all with words so it takes time.


Another possibility: I'm not doing justice to this book because I know I have to get through it pretty fast. I HAVE to read 60 pages a day to get it back to the library in time, and I HATE reading like that. I am reading every word, but I have to confess I'm skimming the bits with Alice's family, the horseriding, etc.
Yes, I'd hate to have to rush this book. The slowness is part of the charm IMO. You could always take it back late if you can bear the fine (shouldn't say that really being an ex-librarian but still... ;))

[Miss Moppet]

Yes, I'd hate to have to rush this book. The slowness is part of the charm IMO. You could always take it back late if you can bear the fine (shouldn't say that really being an ex-librarian but still... ;))

I did consider buying it as it's only £4.89 from Amazon but I am trying not to buy books. It may be for the best that I have to get through it fairly quickly as otherwise I can see myself putting it down and not picking it up. And I've got too many unfinished books lying around at the moment. I want to finish something!

[Leo62]

On p.148

The theme that seems to be emerging is how Alice, the central character, ends up getting used and manipulated by the people around her. This makes her seem passive, and in some ways she is, but what makes her engaging is her struggle to get some kind of control over her destiny.

The female characters are definitely coming out stronger in this story - Alice's horrible mother, Queen Isabella in her black leather and obsidian!

One thing I noticed that was a bit weird; the author spends ages describing Alice's two horses and her hawk, then only devotes about three sentences to the birth of her first child!

[Miss Moppet]

One thing I noticed that was a bit weird; the author spends ages describing Alice's two horses and her hawk, then only devotes about three sentences to the birth of her first child!

Mmm...I wonder if she did lots of research on riding and falconry and then wanted to get it all in!

You're slightly ahead of me now. Hope to read another chunk tonight.

[Miss Moppet]

Now finished part one and a third of the way through the book.

Alice is starting to interest me slightly more, because:

1. Despite supposedly being happily married she feels attracted to the King.

2. She has been commanded to become a lady in waiting to Queen Philippa and doesn't want to do it. I've got every sympathy as I wouldn't want to do it either. Frances Burney, appointed to Queen Charlotte's household in the C18, felt the same - yes, it's a great honour, but you are totally at their beck and call.

I have to wonder if things really happened like this. I don't know a thing about Alice Perrers (would definitely like to follow up some of the books in the bibliography) but here's it's stated that the Queen Mother and Alice's husband decide that she should become a lady in waiting to the Queen. I think what's far more likely is that the King liked the look of her and arranged the appointment (as Barbara Castlemaine was appointed lady in waiting to Catherine of Braganza, for example, much against Catherine's will). But Emma Campion continues her revisionist approach by presenting Alice as devoid of ambition (although not business sense) and also distancing her from her husband, suggesting they drew apart before her relationship with the King began.

I feel the characterisation remains pretty shallow but the style is improving and flowing better than in the early chapters.

Question: did 14th century kings really wear their crowns on a day-to-day basis?

[Leo62]

Now finished part one and a third of the way through the book.
We seem to be maintaining an identical pace - I'm on p181!

I'm enjoying the emerging ambivalence in Alice and Janyn's marriage, the sense of their relationship being slowly poisoned by secrets...and the insidious presence of Isabella in the background.

Alice is starting to interest me slightly more, because:

1. Despite supposedly being happily married she feels attracted to the King.
This didn't seem quite convincing to me. I can see why the king would fancy a bit of younger totty, but what is the attraction for Alice in a *much* older man - especially if, as we're told, she isn't particularly ambitious or dazzled by power. We are led to assume it's his personal charisma...and I'm not quite sure I buy that.

2. She has been commanded to become a lady in waiting to Queen Philippa and doesn't want to do it. I've got every sympathy as I wouldn't want to do it either. Frances Burney, appointed to Queen Charlotte's household in the C18, felt the same - yes, it's a great honour, but you are totally at their beck and call.
Yeah I wouldn't want to do it either! This is one of the strengths of this book for me - Alice's continual struggle to have some control over her life, which is then undermined by her well-meaning but totally condescending husband. Of course, his making the decision for her, without even consulting her, was probably par-for-the-course medieval hubby behaviour...

Question: did 14th century kings really wear their crowns on a day-to-day basis?
I thought that. It seemed odd and clunky, like it was an artificial device to identify him as the king.


One other thing that isn't sitting quite right with me - the story opens in 1355, only 6 or 7 years after the Black Death, yet it is never mentioned. This would have been a defining event in Alice's childhood (she would have been about 8), and the social, psychological and physical after-effects would surely have been more obvious at this time - labour shortages, abandoned houses, collective fear and trama. Where is it all??

[Miss Moppet]

This didn't seem quite convincing to me. I can see why the king would fancy a bit of younger totty, but what is the attraction for Alice in a *much* older man - especially if, as we're told, she isn't particularly ambitious or dazzled by power. We are led to assume it's his personal charisma...and I'm not quite sure I buy that.

Maybe, with the tension between Alice's parents, Campion is suggesting she has daddy issues and so a father figure might appeal. After all, her husband is much older than her too. She doesn't seem to be attracted to men of her own age (like Geoffrey Chaucer) at least not so far.

One other thing that isn't sitting quite right with me - the story opens in 1355, only 6 or 7 years after the Black Death, yet it is never mentioned. This would have been a defining event in Alice's childhood (she would have been about 8), and the social, psychological and physical after-effects would surely have been more obvious at this time - labour shortages, abandoned houses, collective fear and trama. Where is it all??

I never thought of that and you're absolutely right. There's a mention of the Dance of Death on the chapel wall and that's it.

[EC2]

Thanks for this exchange. I am finding it fascinating even if I'm not participating. Keep it coming!

[Leo62]

Maybe, with the tension between Alice's parents, Campion is suggesting she has daddy issues and so a father figure might appeal. After all, her husband is much older than her too. She doesn't seem to be attracted to men of her own age (like Geoffrey Chaucer) at least not so far.

Of course - daddy fixation - duh! Don't know how I missed that. :D

The book opens with a lot of description about her childhood relationship with her father, and how she kind of "lost" him to her mother as she reached puberty...so it makes perfect psychological sense that she's trying to find him again through the men in her life.

EC - it is worth a read; despite all the caveats I'm finding it very absorbing.

[EC2]

O

EC - it is worth a read; despite all the caveats I'm finding it very absorbing.

Well I have it in ARC manuscript form, so when I've done some weight lifting to build up my muscles, I'll give it a go!:D Seriously, I will get around to it when the muse strikes combined with having time to give it full attention.

[Miss Moppet]

These are the problems I am having with the book at this point:

1. The balance of narration to dramatisation. I've never been convinced that writers should always 'show not tell' because it implies that dramatising a scene is ALWAYS preferable to narrating it whereas the truth is, if you dramatised every single thing that has to happen to your protagonist, you'd have the world's longest book, and probably one of the most tedious. Everyone has to use narration sometimes, and many writers (Susan Howatch, Donna Tartt, Patricia Highsmith) can write extremely compelling narrative. But with this book, I'm constantly frustrated because most of it is narrative with only little bits of action, never enough to properly develop the characters. For example: Alice's relationship with the Queen and the ladies-in-waiting. I'd have liked to see the Queen's appreciation of her knowledge, and the ladies' consequent hostility, expressed in one scene. Same with Alice and the King. At one point Alice goes riding with King Edward and the French King Jean, and it's really not made very much of at all. Wouldn't it go to her head to find herself in a situation like that? It gets passed over so quickly. I want less about Troilus and Cressida, less of what Alice is wearing, less about her dreams, and more action and character development.

2. I really, really get the sense of the author thinking all the time, 'how can I explain this so Alice doesn't look too bad?' For example, it's Queen Philippa who decides that Alice should ride out with the King. Why? Has she really not noticed that the King likes Alice? Or maybe she HAS noticed and thinks Alice will keep the king occupied and be less of a threat than a noble mistress because she's of low birth. It's not at all clear what their relationship is: one minute Alice resents Philippa for ignoring her wishes and treating her like a child, next minute she is thinking of her as 'beloved Queen Philippa.' Considering she never wanted to come to court in the first place I think she would be quite resentful of Philippa by this time.

Another example: Alice is upset that her daughter is being brought up in the Scottish royal household. Would a medieval mother really think like this? I think again it's the author thinking, 'I must explain why Alice let her daughter be brought up by someone else, it makes her look like a bad mother' forgetting that at this time entrusting your child to a higher ranking household where they would make a better marriage eventually was being a GOOD mother. There's no need for this nonsense about Bella having to be protected. Why would she be safer in Scotland than at the English court anyway?

3. All the cloak and dagger stuff. Again I think this is about exculpating Alice. It's okay for her to become a royal mistress because her husband has left her. I think it's a bad choice because it avoids conflict between the characters, and also because the plot makes no sense. Apparently Alice's in-laws were helping to conceal the existence of the She-Wolf's supposedly dead husband, who isn't dead after all. This puts them in great danger. From who?? It's not the Royal Family because they are protecting Alice. But they actually have the most incentive to put the old King out of the way. If they're not the enemy, who is? Who is after Alice's husband and mother-in-law? Why are they in danger, but not her father-in-law? Why does the woman spying on Alice follow her all the way from court instead of just finding her there? Why is the church mysteriously empty? If I thought there were going to be some interesting and convincing answers to these questions I'd be enthralled, but at the moment it all just seems contrived and silly.

On the plus side, I'm enjoying some of the scenes at court. Alice's religion feels authentic (although I'm surprised a confessor would brew up a love potion). But mostly I'm frustrated because I feel the legitimate relationships between the characters are being ignored in favour of a sub-plot which doesn't actually work.

What is this business about Alice pretending to be the daughter of Sir Robert Perrers? Is there really some doubt about her identity and whether she came from the merchant class or the nobility?

Oh, and the chapters are too long.

[Leo62]

on p.261

LOL Miss M - that's a very persuasive rant. :D Have to say, I agree with all your points but...funnily enough I'm still enjoying the story!

Campion is undoubtedly tying herself in all sorts of knots trying to make Alice an innocent victim rather than a conniving beeyatch.

I like the fact that all the people around her who seem so nice and well-meaning actually turn out to be manipulative and double-dealing. This is the other side of having Alice as the innocent - pretty much everyone else is a schemer.

Agree, one of the plus sides is the importance of religion to Alice - lots of books set in medieval period really don't seem to get across what a huge influence it was on people's lives.

And yes, the cloak and dagger is daft, but I kinda like it anyway. :D

And yay she finally mentioned the Black Death...

[Miss Moppet]

And yay she finally mentioned the Black Death...

Yes, just a couple of lines, but it was there.

The other reservation has mysteriously disappeared from the library site and I've now renewed the book until 18 May, but I really want to finish it next week. Going to try to catch up with you tonight.

[Leo62]

on p.292, and Alice has finally got it on with the king :D

I think what both Miss M and I have noticed about this book is that it's a bit out of balance, both in terms of narration versus dramatisation and the way it chooses to focus in on minor detail (the frocks, the fabrics) while skipping over some major issues in a few lines (e.g. Alice's relationship with her daughter).

*******SPOILER ALERT*******
A case in point: I've just read a section that was ripe for dramatisation and a rare opportunity for some suspense and action. Alice is kidnapped and is in danger of losing her life. Only the very first part of this is dramatised, then Alice is conveniently knocked unconscious and wakes up a couple of days later to find that she has been rescued and is fine. The story of her kidnap is then laboriously related to her by her rescuers, thus robbing the whole episode of any sense of danger or suspense. We are then treated to a long passage of Alice angsting about the possible danger to her daughter. But then, the daughter's visit for a wedding celebration is thrown away in a couple of lines so that Alice can get back to flirting with the king and being dressed in yet more serious bling by the queen (this whole episode could be called pimp my lady-in-waiting).


I do find this novel engaging, because the sense of Alice being trapped in a gilded cage and being lied to by people who are supposed to love her and protect her is inherently interesting to me, but it's kind of...idiosyncratic. I think it will frustrate a lot of people.

[Miss Moppet]

on p.292, and Alice has finally got it on with the king :D

I think what both Miss M and I have noticed about this book is that it's a bit out of balance, both in terms of narration versus dramatisation and the way it chooses to focus in on minor detail (the frocks, the fabrics) while skipping over some major issues in a few lines (e.g. Alice's relationship with her daughter).

*******SPOILER ALERT*******
A case in point: I've just read a section that was ripe for dramatisation and a rare opportunity for some suspense and action. Alice is kidnapped and is in danger of losing her life. Only the very first part of this is dramatised, then Alice is conveniently knocked unconscious and wakes up a couple of days later to find that she has been rescued and is fine. The story of her kidnap is then laboriously related to her by her rescuers, thus robbing the whole episode of any sense of danger or suspense. We are then treated to a long passage of Alice angsting about the possible danger to her daughter. But then, the daughter's visit for a wedding celebration is thrown away in a couple of lines so that Alice can get back to flirting with the king and being dressed in yet more serious bling by the queen (this whole episode could be called pimp my lady-in-waiting).


I do find this novel engaging, because the sense of Alice being trapped in a gilded cage and being lied to by people who are supposed to love her and protect her is inherently interesting to me, but it's kind of...idiosyncratic. I think it will frustrate a lot of people.

I've gotta catch up with this. I should have read some more last night but I picked up a Kate White mystery instead.

But you're absolutely right, Leo. Did you notice how the issue of whether Janyn was going to wait two years to consummate the marriage got dropped? Alice is all upset about it, then it turns out her mother was lying to upset her. But she doesn't confront either her mother or Janyn about it. It's just referred to briefly by her grandmother after the wedding. Hares keep being started and not really followed up.

[Miss Moppet]

The kidnapping thing: I couldn't agree with Leo more. It was the non-event of all time.

The revelation about who Alice's in-laws were REALLY guarding makes slightly more sense than what was posited before. But still...SPOILER SPACE...

***

I think there's a major hole in the plot: primogeniture. Okay, say the She-Wolf had a son with Mortimer and it was feared he could challenge Edward III for the throne. Well, but it's not a situation like with the Tudors and Plantagenets, where the king actually had a very shaky claim to the throne. Edward III is the eldest son of Edward II and has several grown sons of his own. I don't think a putative younger brother, who is probably illegitimate anyway, poses much of a threat.

But say he does. Who is it who wants to get to him? It might be, say, the French, or some other country that wants to see Edward III overthrown. But Campion never says. You get the feeling she couldn't be bothered to decide who the enemy was and kept it vague because that was easiest.

I think it would work slightly better if it was Isabella trying to get to a son who was taken away from her, with possible plans to stage another takeover. Drawbacks: she seems pretty well off as she is, and when she dies, the threat is gone. But I think this whole plot is ill-conceived and unnecessary.

***

So I've now got to Part III, and it seems the plot is over. That is, the silly shenanigans are over, and I'm hoping the story will become more character-focused. The tagline is 'They will stop at nothing to see her fall from grace' so presumably someone's now going to attempt to bring her down.

What I do feel works: Alice's relationship with the King. The courtship was slow as molasses in January, but I can believe that she is genuinely attracted to him. Also I feel the precariousness of a royal mistress's position is well conveyed.

Unfortunately that's about all I have to say that's positive at this stage. I agree with Cat (Tell Me A Story) (http://cat-bookmagic.blogspot.com/2010/03/review-kings-mistress-by-emma-campion.html)that the secondary characters don't come to life at all. I have to admit I'm keeping track of them by working out who they are in Susan Howatch's The Wheel of Fortune. (Princess Joan is Ginevra, etc.)

Of course, little may be known of Alice's relationship with these people - I don't know the sources. But hell, it's fiction, make it up. I can't imagine there was much love lost between her and John of Gaunt, for example. I don't blame her for trying to feather her nest, because her position was so insecure. But the family would see it differently. And we know there were attacks on her after the King died, so the time to set that up is now.

At the moment, she's best friends with Princess Joan, the Queen approves of the relationship, nobody else seems to hate her, so I'm wondering who on earth wants her to fall from grace?

[Leo62]

the secondary characters don't come to life at all. I have to admit I'm keeping track of them by working out who they are in Susan Howatch's The Wheel of Fortune. (Princess Joan is Ginevra, etc.)


Have to slightly disagree there. I think Queen Philippa is well, um, fleshed out, and I'm really enjoying her portrayal of Joan of Kent as a proto-modern woman, complete with sass and contraceptive advice. ;)

[Miss Moppet]

Have to slightly disagree there. I think Queen Philippa is well, um, fleshed out, and I'm really enjoying her portrayal of Joan of Kent as a proto-modern woman, complete with sass and contraceptive advice. ;)

I take your point about Queen Philippa. You do get the sense that medieval queenship wasn't a bed of roses. Re Joan of Kent...I kind of wish the author had gone this way with Alice, making her a proto-feminist rather than the royal family's plaything. It would have been a cliche, but I might have liked the book more.

Glad you are still enjoying it Leo!

[Miss Moppet]

I'm getting less diligent about reading this since the library decided they don't need it back right away. But, I should take advantage of that to slow down and try to engage with it more. The third part should be the most interesting because this is the actual royal-mistress part.

I've also started planning my review. There's a lot I want to say, much of it not very positive, but I want to keep it balanced. I don't want to put anyone off giving it a go.

[Leo62]

On p.342, and starting to hit some problems...

IThe third part should be the most interesting because this is the actual royal-mistress part.

This part is actually causing me the most grief. Not only am I getting tired of Alice bitching and moaning about not having any choice about anything, while totting up her properties and counting her jewels, but also I have some "issues", as they say, about her relationship with the king.

In fact, I find it slightly repellent. Campion is trying to have her cake and eat it. She points up how Alice is trapped, and how there's a big power imbalance in the relationship (well duh!), but then goes out of her way to have Alice protest that she's truly in love with the king. I don't buy it. In one sentence she's protesting her true love, in the next she describes how the king leaves a pearl for her for every time they do the nasty. Sort of like high-class prostitution, no? With the queen as pimp.

I'm sorry, you can't have people treating other people as objects for their convenience then trying to make out what nice kind human beings they are. OK, I know this was a very different time where kingship was considered god-given, as was the hierarchical nature of society blah blah, but then if you're going to portray that, you have to be honest about what kind of people that creates. I don't think Campion manages it. Give her credit, she tries - she doesn't back away from the power issue and the predicament they create for Alice, but she can't help prettying it up with nice frocks and fake lovey-doveyness. This makes for a schizophrenic read and it's starting to get on my nerves!

Sorry about the rant - had to get that off my chest. :D

I'm over halfway now so I'll push through to the end. This book is such a Curate's Egg - it's bizarre.

[Miss Moppet]

Sorry about the rant - had to get that off my chest. :D

Don't apologise! I'm more interested in finishing it now to see if I agree with you.

I'm over halfway now so I'll push through to the end. This book is such a Curate's Egg - it's bizarre.

Would you read another Emma Campion book from the same author (I mean one by the same author in the same vein, rather than one of her mysteries)?

[EC2]

On p.342, and starting to hit some problems...

I don't buy it. In one sentence she's protesting her true love, in the next she describes how the king leaves a pearl for her for every time they do the nasty. Sort of like high-class prostitution, no? With the queen as pimp.

I'm sorry, you can't have people treating other people as objects for their convenience then trying to make out what nice kind human beings they are. OK, I know this was a very different time where kingship was considered god-given, as was the hierarchical nature of society blah blah, but then if you're going to portray that, you have to be honest about what kind of people that creates.

I've not read this so can't comment on the nuances, but having read up some stuff a bit ago about Medieval sexuality and sexual relations, wives expecting payments for sex was a norm of the society. They put out nicely for hubby and got a new dress, or a piece of jewellery or whatever, and it was seen as a cultural norm and a way of valuing oneself. To put out and not receive a pressy was a bit of a let down. I can't remember which book it was in. Either the Mazo Karras which is in my talk case at the mo, so I can't give you the title, or one of my other medieval sex books (!!! All university press publications and gender studies material). It's very alien to our way of thinking, but business as usual for the Medievals.
As I say, I'm not making any judgement on the content of the novel 'cos I haven't read it, but I'm just tossing this into the mix.

[Leo62]

Miss M - yes, I would try her mysteries written as Candace Robb. They're set in the same period - 1360s - and hopefully the requirements of telling a mystery story will prevent some of the longeurs which plague this book. Hopefully. :D

EC2 - that's a really interesting point. I guess a consumerist attitude to sex is nothing new. :D In the book, Alice's comment on the gifts is along the lines of: "I knew I was being bought but I didn't care/couldn't help myself, I loved him anyway." Bleh! Also, this is not a husband/wife relationship but an adulterous one - I'm guessing the medievals would have had some very pronounced opinions on that. Or maybe not...?

[Leo62]

On p.411

Seriously flagging, but determined to get to the end. :D

I'm getting very bored by Alice's endless poor-me whining, alternating with equally endless descriptions of her bling. Her character hasn't really developed at all and I'm feeling less and less sympathy for her as the story progresses. I also find the king very unsympathetic, and I feel that Campion's portrayal of their relationship (and Alice's character) flies in the face of what I assume are the historical facts. It would have been much more interesting (and believable) to make her an ambitious opportunist - and then to explore the reasons for her being that way. But no. She's a passive goody-goody and her character goes nowhere. I just want it to be over.

[Miss Moppet]

On p.411

Seriously flagging, but determined to get to the end. :D

Same here, although I've got seriously distracted from it in the past few days. I've just found it very putdownable.

I'm getting very bored by Alice's endless poor-me whining, alternating with equally endless descriptions of her bling. Her character hasn't really developed at all and I'm feeling less and less sympathy for her as the story progresses. I also find the king very unsympathetic, and I feel that Campion's portrayal of their relationship (and Alice's character) flies in the face of what I assume are the historical facts.

I did come across this post (http://unusualhistoricals.blogspot.com/2009/09/scandal-kings-mistress.html) suggesting Alice has been maligned (and with one or two spoilers, so you might prefer to leave reading it till you're done with the book). Royal mistresses were traditionally demonised, especially those (such as Mme de Pompadour or Mme du Barry) who came from the lower orders and didn't have a family network to support them at Court. But I refuse to believe the real Alice could have been as bland as Campion paints her.

[Miss Moppet]

Still meandering along.

I really don't need to know where Alice spends every month of the year. It would be fine to skip to the exciting parts - except there aren't any. Alice's announcement of her pregnancy was the most overwritten thing ever, but there was no drama - Alice tells the king, he says he'll talk to her later, she goes off for a nap, he recalls her and says he's delighted and gives her another bit of jewellery.

Same with Alice's daughter Bella. Alice passes the time during her pregnancy with an unusual pastime: sewing

fantastical costumes for Bella, particularly elaborate headdresses such as Edward and Philippa favoured for court festivities - birds rising from great nests, ships at full sail.

This despite the fact they're living deep in the country with no socialising whatsoever. Alice leaves the making of a layette to her maids, concentrating instead on producing:

a large headdress depicting a pageant wagon on top of which a jester stood on his hands.

Bella yells that she won't wear it and even throws it out of the solar window (don't blame her). After all this kerfuffle over the flipping headdress, Bella's reaction to discovering Alice is pregnant by the King is passed off in one sentence:

As to her reaction to the news of my carrying the King's child, she seemed to see nothing wrong in it.

Even though Bella is very religious and wants to enter a convent. She does enter a convent but there's no moving farewell scene, it's all told in dull, bland narrative. Same when Alice's five year old son goes to live in the household of a man she doesn't like. It's dry as dust and it's frustrating because there's actually good material here. There would be room to dramatise some of these scenes if the repetitions (Alice worships Queen Philippa, Alice loves spending time with her family, Alice buys a new property, Alice feels she has no choice to be other than she is) got cut out, along with silly scenes about headdresses that have no purpose whatsoever.

Five years have just drifted by. There is an attempt to set up some conflict with John of Gaunt (I think) but it doesn't amount to much. I keep getting confused between William Wykeham and William Wyndsor. I know one's good and one's bad but I keep mixing them up.

[Leo62]

LOL Miss M, great analysis of plot logic (or lack thereof!). I got heartily sick of all the ship-and-sail headdresses, I must admit.

I'm within 50 pages of the end now, and it has got a bit better (a bit). The endless turgid middle section of the relationship with the king just meandered on pointlessly and I ended up hating both of 'em.

But the description of the king's final illness and death was quite poignant, and Alice's fall from grace at least woke me up a bit.

However, the same weird skewed-ness still applies; there's pages of angsting over her properties and jewels, then the peasant's revolt gets done and dusted in half a page.

This is less a novel, more a (speculative) summary of the woman's whole life.

[Leo62]

Finished!

I did quite enjoy the last section, though the pace wasn't any better. But overall I'm glad it's over. :D

I'd hesitate to recommend this book. It's not terrible - there's no purple prose or wildly ridiculous romanticising - but it does feel like a great big missed opportunity.

Alice's announcement of her pregnancy was the most overwritten thing ever, but there was no drama - Alice tells the king, he says he'll talk to her later, she goes off for a nap, he recalls her and says he's delighted and gives her another bit of jewellery.

That pretty much sums up the whole looooooooong middle section.


It's like the author did a whole load of research on Alice Perrers's life and then couldn't bear to leave any of it out. She crammed in what felt like every episode in this woman's adult life, with the result that whole sections of the book felt like a summary rather than a novel because she didn't have space to dramatise them properly.

But then, whole swathes of stuff were ignored, mostly to do with the wider social context. It's like her research was deep but narrow; masses of stuff on frocks and fabrics, nothing much on anything else. There was no sense of a population struggling to recover from the terrible trauma of the Black Death and no real explanation of the reasons for the growing anger of the people towards the king and the royal family. Suddenly those pesky peasants were revolting and that was that.

As this was one of the main reasons I wanted to read this book - this period was one of such upheaval and social change and such eras are always fascinating - I was pretty disappointed.

As far as the characters went: Alice is passive, and she doesn't grow or develop much in the course of the book, so I found her hard to relate to. The king I found pretty unsympathetic, except towards the end when he got ill with some kind of dementia. Everyone else was cardboard, apart from Queen Isabella and Joan of Kent, who were both briefly entertaining.

I enjoyed the first third the most - mainly the background stuff about the merchants and the daft-but-fun Isabella subplot.

I don't want to sound too damning - I've DNF'd far worse books - but this was a frustrating read because it felt like there was a much better book in there struggling to get out.

So..looking forward to reading your verdict Miss M. The most fun thing about this book has been discussing it here. :D

[Leo62]

I did come across this post (http://unusualhistoricals.blogspot.com/2009/09/scandal-kings-mistress.html) suggesting Alice has been maligned (and with one or two spoilers, so you might prefer to leave reading it till you're done with the book).

Now that makes her sound much more interesting...

[Miss Moppet]

I'd hesitate to recommend this book. It's not terrible - there's no purple prose or wildly ridiculous romanticising - but it does feel like a great big missed opportunity.

I feel the same.


That pretty much sums up the whole looooooooong middle section.

I'm still beached there, but I've peeked ahead and there's only 60 pages more before the King dies.

It's like the author did a whole load of research on Alice Perrers's life and then couldn't bear to leave any of it out. She crammed in what felt like every episode in this woman's adult life, with the result that whole sections of the book felt like a summary rather than a novel because she didn't have space to dramatise them properly.

Couldn't agree more. I think she got bogged down in the research. I have sympathy because exactly the same has happened to me on occasion.

But then, whole swathes of stuff were ignored, mostly to do with the wider social context. It's like her research was deep but narrow; masses of stuff on frocks and fabrics, nothing much on anything else. There was no sense of a population struggling to recover from the terrible trauma of the Black Death and no real explanation of the reasons for the growing anger of the people towards the king and the royal family. Suddenly those pesky peasants were revolting and that was that.

As this was one of the main reasons I wanted to read this book - this period was one of such upheaval and social change and such eras are always fascinating - I was pretty disappointed.

Yes - and as Alice, whether she wanted to or not, became such a political hot potato, it would make sense to have more political background. But it all goes along with the bland persona Alice is given - she's not interested in politics so we don't hear much about them.


I don't want to sound too damning - I've DNF'd far worse books - but this was a frustrating read because it felt like there was a much better book in there struggling to get out.

Exactly.

So..looking forward to reading your verdict Miss M. The most fun thing about this book has been discussing it here. :D

It certainly has! I'm not sure I would have kept on without our discussion as an incentive, and that would be a shame, because I learned a lot from reading this book. It actually has been very instructive.

[Miss Moppet]

Alice has been paraded through the streets as Lady of the Sun, much against her will. I can certainly believe she wouldn't have been keen on this as unpopular mistresses usually avoided capital cities. But I think the author is trying to have it both ways - one minute Edward is senile and barely knows what's going on, but whenever he has to tell Alice to do something she doesn't want to do he gets his strength back. She doesn't seem to have any influence over him at all.

[Leo62]

I think the author is trying to have it both ways - one minute Edward is senile and barely knows what's going on, but whenever he has to tell Alice to do something she doesn't want to do he gets his strength back. She doesn't seem to have any influence over him at all.

I felt this to some extent all the way through the book. Whenever anything happens that makes Alice look bad, Campion pulls the old "I couldn't help it they made me do it" routine. This was more believable when she was a naive teenage girl, but as the novel progresses and we're told she's a sophisticated, wealthy woman managing loads of properties, it becomes harder and harder to believe. She ties herself in such knots trying to make Alice look saintly, it's just painful.

[Miss Moppet]

At last!

I thought the last part was the best in some ways. But no sooner had I teared up over Alice's six-year-old son dying young than I turned the page and found out he didn't exist (ie there's no evidence she married again after Wyndsor).

I had to wonder whether her marriage to Wyndsor was as bad as it was depicted. I think events got manipulated so as to provide a 'happy ending.'

The contrast between John of Gaunt as depicted here and as he was in Anya Seton's Katherine was almost comical. Same could be said for Alice of course. I think it's a shame Katherine Swynford herself wasn't more of a character. She could have been a go-between for Alice and Gaunt.

Anyway, I'm done and now I have to write the review. Thanks Leo for taking the time to discuss the book with me! It might well have been a DNF otherwise.

[Leo62]

I thought the last part was the best in some ways.
I agree. It was easily the most dramatic. This would have been a better book IMO if she'd just focussed on this part of the story - say from the king's final descent into illness/dementia onwards. Then there would have been more space to dramatise the thing properly.

I had to wonder whether her marriage to Wyndsor was as bad as it was depicted. I think events got manipulated so as to provide a 'happy ending.'
I thought the same. He was such a cardboard villain - I found myself feeling sorry for him; I think I would have hit the bottle too if I'd been married to this version of Alice! The happy-clappy ending with Robert was extremely contrived - it didn't square at all with the picture painted in that blog article of a woman who spent the rest of her life in endless litigation to get her property back. To me, that suggests a stubborn and embittered woman who won't let go.

The contrast between John of Gaunt as depicted here and as he was in Anya Seton's Katherine was almost comical. Same could be said for Alice of course. I think it's a shame Katherine Swynford herself wasn't more of a character. She could have been a go-between for Alice and Gaunt.
I actually quite liked the sort-of negative portrayal of John of Gaunt. There just wasn't enough of it. And a lot of his motivation was "explained" pedantically by Joan of Kent rather than being dramatised. This could have been a really exciting bit of dramatisation with all sorts of semi-Oedipal potential...but no.

Thanks Leo for taking the time to discuss the book with me!
You're welcome - it was a lot of fun, and as you say, very illuminating to analyse and think about why a book *doesn't* actually work, instead of just chucking it across the room. :D

[Miss Moppet]

One more thing I forgot to say. Alice didn't seem to have any religious qualms about staying with the king to the end - but wouldn't it have endangered his soul to keep his mistress with him? Wouldn't she have been sent away after he made his confession? Or was he too senile to be capable of confessing?

[Leo62]

One more thing I forgot to say. Alice didn't seem to have any religious qualms about staying with the king to the end - but wouldn't it have endangered his soul to keep his mistress with him? Wouldn't she have been sent away after he made his confession? Or was he too senile to be capable of confessing?

Interesting - she didn't really tackle this, though religious belief and practice is a strong presence in the rest of the book. It never occurred to me, I must admit. Perhaps it didn't occur to her either - or perhaps she just didn't want to go there.

Another example of a missed opportunity anyway...perhaps someone else will tackle this story again, to better effect!

[Misfit]

Read a bit more at lunch. I have to say it's still feeling (a) slow and (b) bland. This is at least partly due to my personal preference as to subject matter though. Domestic stuff (Alice gets betrothed; Alice orders some new frocks) can bore me but as soon as there was a mention of Isabella of Valois, I perked up. Hope it will start getting a bit more political now.

I found this part wearying as well. All talk talk talk about this fabric and that fabric. I don't mind that, but I'd like to learn more about what went into the making of the fabrics and how they get to market (if that makes sense).

[Margaret]

I think there's a major hole in the plot: primogeniture. Okay, say the She-Wolf had a son with Mortimer and it was feared he could challenge Edward III for the throne. Well, but it's not a situation like with the Tudors and Plantagenets, where the king actually had a very shaky claim to the throne. Edward III is the eldest son of Edward II and has several grown sons of his own. I don't think a putative younger brother, who is probably illegitimate anyway, poses much of a threat.

But say he does. Who is it who wants to get to him?


I had a problem with this, too, especially since it's such a huge driver of the plot and is milked for suspense most of the way through. The revelation comes as an anticlimax, and it never did become clear to me why someone would kill Isabella's messenger to her illegitimate son. Presumably there were other reasons why Perrers might bring his wife to court from time to time. I love cloak-and-dagger stuff when it's justified, but this fell flat for me because it was just the same old mystery trotted out time and again, without any development, until the revelation, by which time everyone involved is dead and it's no longer relevant as a plot driver. It would have worked better, I think, to have Alice get bits of information here and there that would allow her to eventually work out most of the answer, and then confront someone about it while the revelation is still dangerous. Instead, it's all just used to make the point that Alice is utterly helpless.

Did any of you start disliking Alice toward the end? I started to find her so whiny that it had a "methinks the lady doth protest too much" quality, as if all the first-person narration about her innocence and helplessness might have been a cover for her actually being the greedy bitch Walsingham portrayed her as!

[robinbird79]

I finished this about a week ago and should be getting my review up on my blog (hopefully) before Friday. I actually enjoyed it for the most part.

I too found the constant discussion of fabric and Alice making/getting new gowns a tad boring. I don't mind details on what folks wore (it can be fascinating) but it just got old after a while. Is there any record of that parade where Edward had Alice dressed all in gold with some horrible contraption on top of her head?

As to the mystery with Isabella's illegitimate son, I also wanted to know who exactly wanted him out of the way. I can kinda understand "them" wanting whoever knew of his existence dead (so they couldn't spill the beans) but if that's the case it would seem to point to Edward III wanting him out of the way so there were no potential claimants to his throne.

It was interesting to see Alice in a different light; everything I've read that has a mention of her usually shows her as a scheming, arrogant, selfish b***h. The constant refrain of "I'll listen to so-and-so's advice to help me out" and then never really changing and saying over and over "what choice did I have but to be what I was?" got really old after the first couple of times.

[Miss Moppet]

Is there any record of that parade where Edward had Alice dressed all in gold with some horrible contraption on top of her head?

I think this did happen, but have no idea of the source. Was Alice dressed as the Lady of the Sun? Interesting use of solar imagery in association with a king's mistress - it's more generally used by rulers, most famously Louis XIV.

As to the mystery with Isabella's illegitimate son, I also wanted to know who exactly wanted him out of the way. I can kinda understand "them" wanting whoever knew of his existence dead (so they couldn't spill the beans) but if that's the case it would seem to point to Edward III wanting him out of the way so there were no potential claimants to his throne.

Exactly - the story doesn't make sense otherwise. I was waiting for the big reveal which never actually happened.

[Margaret]

Is there any record of that parade where Edward had Alice dressed all in gold with some horrible contraption on top of her head?

I think there must be, because when I looked for nonfiction about Alice Perrers to include with my review, one of the books (by George Kay, published in 1966) was titled Lady of the Sun. That particular scene was one of the better ones, I thought. I could just see that procession, with Alice being flaunted (or flaunting herself, which seemed more likely) in cloth of gold while all those seething court ladies had to settle for silver, and the mobs beamed hatred at her, while poor Edward sailed along totally oblivious to everything. Really, there's something a bit delicious (in fiction, if not in real life) about a woman who could indulge herself to the limit in such a tasteless but flashy way. Rather like a modern rock star.

[Gretchen Craig]

I'm definitely interested in trying Emma Campion. Haven't read her before. By the time I get The King's Mistress, though, I imagine you all will have long finished it. Still, glad to have a recommendation.