What is it?

[Margaret]

The question of what's fantasy and what's historical is surprisingly difficult to sort out. Novels like the Narnia books take place in a completely made-up fantasy world, but other novels are hybrids between fantasy and history. For example, Mary Stewart's Arthurian novels take place in a well-researched, realistic setting in post-Roman Britain and include some historically documented people. Her Merlin does have prophetic powers, but he's not a wizard who can change people into animals, like the Merlin of The Once and Future King. People may disagree about whether certain paranormal phenomena - clairvoyance, for example, or ghostly apparitions - are fantasy or whether they really happen. And what about alternative history, like the novels that explore what might have happened if the South had won the U.S. Civil War? There are no paranormal phenomena, and the history up to a certain point in time is completely accurate, but then a few elements are changed and things unwind differently from there.

[LCW]

The most "fantasy" type book I've read is Mists of Avalon. I wouldn't read a fantasy novel without it being in some sort of historical setting. I think the line between the two genre's is fuzzy but has to do with amount of "history" vs. the amount of "fantasy" in the story.

[Divia]

I always tired to read fantasy novels but they were always about men carring around big swords and being manly. So I cant get into them. I like fantasy stories with a histoircal element too.

[Melisende]

Author Antony Swithin combines the two in his quartet of novels.

They begin in England during the rebellion of Owain Glendowr and finish off in a land that though barely visible on any good atlas, is not what we would call "historical".

But for the most part they are "fantasy".


What then would we class those novels based on "mythology" ???

[MLE]

Mu daughter once observed, "Have you noticed that most fantasy is just Medieval Europe with fairies and dragons?"
Yes, I have. That is because I am currently working on a YA novel set in pre-conquest Peru, and to appeal to the Harry Potter fans, instead of coming up front with the fact that this is a well-researched historical setting, I went for a 'fantasy' feel. It was surprisingly easy. especially as a great deal of the plot involves the conflict of the many tribal religions and idols, and the major threat is which character gets chosen for human sacrifice.
That's when I noticed that fantasy novels almost always have horses, but never llamas. or camels, or kangaroos, for that matter. Unless they are set on another planet (hence falling into the science fiction genre) you never see African, Australian, or South American settings for fantasy.

[TerriPray]

One thing I also enjoy are the good Time Travel novels, the one's where they get the historical detail's correct. For those I'd strongly recommend Karen Marie Moning's Highlander series. There's a fantasy element as well, but I've enjoyed her novels and found them to be a beautiful way of wasting away an afternoon.

[xiaotien]

yes. as i mentioned before, i thought i wrote
a historical fantasy until i realized i didn't
base it on an actual time or place. so it
really just pulls a lot on the chinese culture,
tradition and feel. as one editor told me :
"how is this fantasy? it reads like crouching tiger,
hidden dragon and amy tan." =O

like it was a bad thing.

but that was a fantasy publisher--
and i realized trying to sell a fantasy
set in asia may be a hard sell. (they tell
you to be different--but then they balk
when you are.) thank goodness
i wrote a YA by chance, and the YA editors
*were* interested.

fantasy is one of my favorite genres to
read (along with historical fiction). i've only
read one historical fantasy thus far, and
it's marie brennan's midnight never come.
i thought it was very well done.

[annis]

There is also a category known as "mythistorical"- fiction which develops a particular myth or legend into a novel - for example, some of Morgan Llywelyn's novels based on Celtic legends would probably fall into this category.

When some of us were playing around on another forum trying (with difficulty!) to get a handle on various historical fiction sub-genres, I came across this article by Carla which impressed me, and as I did originally find it on the old HFF, hopefully she won't mind if I re-post it here (http://carlanayland.blogspot.com/2006/12/historical-fantasy.html)

[xiaotien]

great post.
thanks for the link, annis!

[Margaret]

Jeanne Larsen's Bronze Mirror blended fantasy with Chinese myths to tell a story about Chinese gods and goddesses. I think it did fairly well, at least it was published by a major publisher and was well reviewed. She's followed it up with two more novels: Silk Road and Manchu Palaces. Also, Barry Hughart has written a series of fantasy novels based on Chinese myths.

Technically, novels like these probably don't qualify as historical novels, because they aren't set in a real historical world. However, I do sometimes list them at www.HistoricalNovels.info if they're based on myths and legends that are part of history, because the myths and legends that people shared offer a great deal of insight into the culture of their particular time and place. In that sense, they do have things to teach us about history. For some times and places (like ancient Ireland and ancient India), almost the only written traces of the culture that survive are in the form of these mythical tales, so most of what we know about the culture comes from that and archaeology. And myths and legends contain a surprising amount of information about people's lives and customs.

[xiaotien]

margaret, i've got the silk road, but
haven't read it yet. i'm not sure i will
until my novel comes out? it's one of those
things...afraid i'll compare with my own novel.

and i don't even know if there is similarity
at all!

i did read bridge of birds by hughart. he
called it the "china that never was".

i do incorporate some chinese myth in
my novel--but i also make up quite a lot
as well. i'd call my novel fantasy first, for certain.

[LoveHistory]

When I see or hear Fantasy I think of things that have to do with magic. Elves. Faeries. Wizards. Dwarves. Gnomes. Trolls. That kind of thing.

Now Historical Fantasy throws a curve. For one thing, almost all of my fantasies are historical, so it seems nearly redundant to me. Second, is it really historical if it has characters like those I just listed? Basically in to the question "what is it?" my answer is: I don't know.

I wish we had more generally accepted genres so that we could sort out the Invented History (who would buy something with that designation?) from the Historical Fantasy, from the regular (real) Historical Fiction.

[xiaotien]

LH, if your books are based on
a real time and place in history with
magic and elves, etc thrown in,
yes, it's historical fantasy.

if you say invented history, do you mean
alternate history? isn't chabon's yiddish policemen
alternate history? i've got it to read--and
it's done quite well.

[Belili]

yes. as i mentioned before, i thought i wrote
a historical fantasy until i realized i didn't
base it on an actual time or place. so it
really just pulls a lot on the chinese culture,
tradition and feel. as one editor told me :
"how is this fantasy? it reads like crouching tiger,
hidden dragon and amy tan." =O

like it was a bad thing.

That sounds... awesome, lol. I don't dig fantasy normally, but I read a historical fantasy a few years ago that sounds similar to what you are describing. And it's one of my favorite books ever. It's called The Secrets of Jin-Shei, by Alma Alexander. It's set in a nation that is very much like China but not quite China, with a neighboring culture that is very much like Russia but not quite Russia. Their religion is a hybrid between Taoism and Chinese folk religion, and their clothing is, you know, just like traditional Chinese clothing. There is a secret written language that is only known by women, passed down from mother-to-daughter, like there used to be in China.

One of the main characters is clearly based on Empress Wu. I think that the author didn't set it in China proper because she didn't want to confine herself to one time. The fantasy element is strictly alchemy (the kind that actually works) and a bit of magic. It's not in the forefront.

That was sort of a long spiel, but yeah, everyone should read it. :)

[xiaotien]

yes, i read secrets of jin-shei.

mine is definitely more fantastic and
more of a straight forward heroine's journey.

i'm giving away three ARCs (advanced reader copy)
on my blog if you want to try and win a copy? =)

http://cindypon.blogspot.com/2009/01/im-so-excited-silver-phoenix-arc.html

[Belili]

yes, i read secrets of jin-shei.

mine is definitely more fantastic and
more of a straight forward heroine's journey.

i'm giving away three ARCs (advanced reader copy)
on my blog if you want to try and win a copy? =)

http://cindypon.blogspot.com/2009/01/im-so-excited-silver-phoenix-arc.html

Sure thing, will do! It sounds like a cool premise. But how does one pick a favorite Chinese dish? That's almost like asking me which of my dogs I love the best.

You know, the best Chinese food I have ever had was at a restaurant in Thessaloniki, Greece, where I lived for a short while. It was owned by Japanese-Italians and Chinese-Italians. No joke! They had the best kung pao chicken ever. We communicated in a broken Italian-English pidgin, since I knew no Greek and they knew a little English and I a little Italian. I still have dreams about that restaurant. If I ever make it back there, that's the first place I'm going. I went to traditional tavernas on the sea and fancy $50-a-plate restaurants in Athens, and that Chinese restaurant remains the best food I had in Greece. For serious.

/OT

Back to HF - not sure if I can really determine what historical fantasy is; I'd like to read more of it, but I prefer emphasis on the historical/cultural rather than the fantasy. I *really* wish that HF got its own section in the bookstore.

I sometimes think that there should be a distinction between HF that is more like narrative biography and HF that is a traditional story that can only be told in a historical setting. Basically, between HF that primarily concerns people that actually existed, and HF that has fictional characters. The difference between SKP/Weir/McCullough and Lisa See/Geraldine Brooks/(mostly) Tracy Chevalier. I enjoy them both, but in different ways and for different reasons. For some reason I find that distinction more useful than the historical fiction/romance/fantasy distinctions that we have now. I usually find myself in the mood for one or the other (fictional in a historical setting or biographical), and whether it has fantastical or romantic elements is immaterial to that.

I find them very different reading experiences, and they fill different intellectual demands. I tend to be on the lookout for good HF with fictional characters at all times--have been for my entire life--and I get in moods for biographical HF and will read 15 books of that nature in a row. In fact, because of this, I only realized that I tend to pursue HF above all other genres a year or two ago, and I've always been a big reader.

Okay, that was off-topic, too. Please forgive my rambling!

[Volgadon]

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel is an excellent historical fantasy. The setting is regency England where magic is rediscovered and gradually reintroduced.

[chuck]

A fan of Cecilia Holland's HF novels...Especially "Jerusalem".....I have read her Viking's series....Starting with "Soul Thief " she weaves the magic and some of her characters have mystical powers....I think she keeps it pretty well balanced in this series....but I for one don't like a lot of mystical experiences in HF.........BTW Margaret, a very interesting post......"Into the Mystic" (great song)is a good thing...like anything it must have some mythic base that relates to the story.....I liked Mary Stewart's approach in her Arthur/Merlin trilogy, well "balanced" story....Alas! I'm babbling on again......

[Margaret]

Mary Stewart's "Merlin" books are old favorites of mine. I don't really consider them to be fantasy, though some would. I guess it comes down to whether one believes people can be clairvoyant or not. Except for Merlin's prophetic abilities, these novels resemble novels like Mary Renault's The King Must Die, which take fantastical legends and try to imagine what the real history might have been that over time was distorted into legends full of magical events.

Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is great! It took me a few chapters to really get into the story, and the first time I started reading it I didn't finish. I was very glad I picked it up again the second time. It's full of wry humor. The "footnotes" are wonderful. It's really a very elegant spoof of the sort of quasi-academic history books written in earlier centuries by clerics with a fascination for local history and too much time on their hands, except that it's also a great story. It has to be classified as fantasy, because it's full of magic - stones that speak, ships conjured out of nothing, etc. - but the literary tone is like no fantasy novel you've ever read.

[Volgadon]

What really impressed me is that characters in the book act like they are in 18xx. The author doesn't use the excuse of it is fantasy so they can behave as they like but they are true to their times.

[Kveto from Prague]

im one of those who came from reading fantasy type books and slowly graduated into HF. I was reading books that blended the two and slowly realized that it was the "historical" part that i liked more than the "fantasy" part and I "graduated" to HF which is my prefered area now.

it will come off as a knock against fantasy, but the more i read, the more i saw the "fantasy worlds" as generic. it was probably very original to set a book in a "fantasy land" back when tolken or whoever did it first as opposed to the "real world" where most books were set at that time. but as time went on, it seemed that these worlds were completely unoriginal, carbon copies of middle-earth or something similar. it actually made the writers less original in my mind especially if their "world" was mearly a copy of earth with some magic thrown in.

im not specifically basing any particulars, i just remember a fantasy novel where there were annalouges for a people similar to the vikings, and another similar to the romans and so forth. it just made me say why not just use the bloody romans in the first place.

answer: i think because the writer didnt want the constraints of having to be "historically accurate". no one could fault him if he made historically innacurate proto-romans. so rather than work within the constraints of history the writer can say "chuck it", ill tell the story without restraints.

sometimes, restraints are good. think of fitting poetry with iambic pentameter rather than free verse. iambic pentameter might be much more difficult to work in and feel restrictive but a good writer can make it work in spite of and taking full advantage of those restraints. so that when it works, it really really works, it feels even much better.

which is how i imagine a writer must feel when they are able a story utilizing those historical "constraints", it works so much better when they get it right.

Which is why HF writers have a great deal of my respect

[Margaret]

What an insightful post, Keny! I do think some fantasy writers (Tolkien, for example) were steeped in history and could have written very good historical fiction, but but they just wanted to include wizards, elves, dragons, and other unreal elements that don't belong in straight historical fiction. Dune is another superb novel, sci-fi rather than fantasy, by an author who clearly understood a lot of history. For my taste, though, most fantasy novels are too thin on characterization to really interest me. I like novels with a lot of rich psychological, sociological and political insights - and the best historical fiction does all this admirably. Contemporary novels often don't have the perspective to be as insightful about sociological and political dynamics as historical novels at their best can be.

[Kveto from Prague]

What an insightful post, Keny! I do think some fantasy writers (Tolkien, for example) were steeped in history and could have written very good historical fiction, but but they just wanted to include wizards, elves, dragons, and other unreal elements that don't belong in straight historical fiction. Dune is another superb novel, sci-fi rather than fantasy, by an author who clearly understood a lot of history. For my taste, though, most fantasy novels are too thin on characterization to really interest me. I like novels with a lot of rich psychological, sociological and political insights - and the best historical fiction does all this admirably. Contemporary novels often don't have the perspective to be as insightful about sociological and political dynamics as historical novels at their best can be.


thanks. I didnt want it to seem as an arguement against historical fantasy, more of an increased respect for those who can place their fantasy in a real historical setting. when Tolken first made middle earth that was an original idea. all fantasy stories in the past even back to legends were always set on "our earth". just in a place that people rarely tred so the idea of another world was a novel one. however, since then it has been used increasingly as a way for writers not to bother with historical facts. its on an alternate world so no need for research. which is perfectly fine. why not? but i prefer "our world" even if its a magic section that was unrecorded in the history books.

and unfortunately i do agree with the statement that most historical fiction is set in "medevil europe with dragons and elves".

Poul Anderson comes to mind as an author who wrote fantastic tales with a real historical setting and a lot of reserach to back them up. in fact i think ill go re-read the mermaids children. it was a nice tour of denmark, greenland and croatia with a fantastic slant.

[annis]

I just recently read Poul Anderson's "Golden Slave", which is another straight historical swashbuckler (Like "Rogue Sword"). This one is about the Cimbri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri) or Cimbrians, a Nordic tribe forced from their homeland by terrible weather and bad harvests into Europe, where they wandered south on a lengthy migration until they ran into the the edges of Republican Roman territory. They clashed sporadically with the Romans until they were virtually wiped out in the Battle of Vercellae in 101 BC. As you go on you realise that PA is creating a possible origin for the legends of the Norse gods Odin and Thor. Lots of interesting stuff, presented in the guise of historical adventure.
So even his straight HF plays with myth and legend and the favourite theme of many Norse sagas- the hero who has to work through the tragic consequences of bad choices and/or fate. (Of course, the bad choices can also be the result of fate.)

[Richard]

My book is about the events of 827, when Venetian merchants stole St. Mark's relics. I was thinking of a fantasy-type setting from the beginning, because the time period is the root of most European-themed fantasy, and the subject- the taking of an article of great power from an ancient crypt- is probably the second most hackneyed fantasy quest plot. I can get away from using such a cliche plot only because it actually happened.

I did keep magic and elves out of the book- except that some of the characters have advanced (for the time) knowledge about medicine and astronomy which to the uneducated characters seems like magic. And I built the cast of characters on the quest along the traditional lines of the fantasy "adventuring party". There's a healer, a mysterious woman with sorceress-like powers (but not really), an armored warrior, and a rogue-ish fellow with a long knife and a sharp wit.

I chose to follow those traditional fantasy lines because I was struck with the idea that the story of this event is the closest thing I've ever heard of to a D&D adventure that I've ever heard of in real history.

[annis]

Sounds interesting, Richard. I enjoy novels which are set in periods not usually covered by fiction. The theft of the relics marked the start of greatness for the city of Venice - now they had something with which to attract the pilgrim trade.

[Richard]

Exactly! I have described this to some people with an analogy: what if the Yankees or the Red Sox were somehow convinced to play in Albany, NY?

When I started doing my research I was thinking primarily about the pilgrim angle, but as I got deeper in I began to see it as more of a political/religious power play. At this time there are three empires, and each controls its own brand of religion. The Franks are allied with the Roman Church, the Byzantines control the Eastern Church, and of course the Abbasid Caliph is "Commander of the Faithful" over the Muslims of his empire.

Venice in 827 is in the position of having to choose between the influence of Rome and Constantinople. It has managed to exist in the cracks between those empires for some time, and has profited by it. When they take Mark, they (my theory goes) can claim equal religious authority to the Christian empires, and so are able to build their own. I postulate in the book that in the 9th century it's impossible to govern an empire without the people in it beleiving that they are doing God's will when they serve the Emperor.

[Kveto from Prague]

I just recently read Poul Anderson's "Golden Slave", which is another straight historical swashbuckler (Like "Rogue Sword"). This one is about the Cimbri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri) or Cimbrians, a Nordic tribe forced from their homeland by terrible weather and bad harvests into Europe, where they wandered south on a lengthy migration until they ran into the the edges of Republican Roman territory. They clashed sporadically with the Romans until they were virtually wiped out in the Battle of Vercellae in 101 BC. As you go on you realise that PA is creating a possible origin for the legends of the Norse gods Odin and Thor. Lots of interesting stuff, presented in the guise of historical adventure.
So even his straight HF plays with myth and legend and the favourite theme of many Norse sagas- the hero who has to work through the tragic consequences of bad choices and/or fate. (Of course, the bad choices can also be the result of fate.)

Ahh, so this is the thread where you alerted me to "golden slave". Im glad i forgot it so i got the "surprise" at the end.

Too bad Anderson didnt do more straight HF.