umberto eco

[Kveto from Prague]

i couldnt find a an umberto eco so id start one. Ive read a couple of his books and really love them. I know his pace isnt for everyone but it suits me perfectly. and his research is perfect. The "name of the rose" basically invented the historical mystery and no one since has come close (sorry, its an opinion, ive tried other historical mysterys and none have impressed me like "rose")

i have not read "foulcauts pendulum" but will some time.

My fav is "bauldolino". it is brilliant. the first half follows a young north Itailan whose knack for languages helps him atatch to the coattails of Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, especially on his journey to constantinople on the 3rd crusade. I can't tell you about the second half cause it would be a giant spoiler.

his history is perfect. the letter from prestor john, the demise of barbarossa, the fake relics, the hassish for the assassins. his research is spot on. i only found one "mistake" (his claim that one of the 3 wise men was "black" which is a 19th/20th centrury addition to the legend, as well as naming them, also apochraphyl)

but the most brilliant part is the first chapter, in which the uneducated bauldolino tries to write on a parchment he found in a church after scratching away the original writing. it is written in bad grammar and colloquial tones with run on sentences and no punctuation. it really can't be described. the best part is when the text suddenly shifts into latin. afterward bauldolino writes "these lines were allready here before and i couldnt scratch them away so i leave them"

i really recommend it.

[Leo62]

i have not read "foulcauts pendulum" but will some time.
It's great. The best take ever on the whole Knights Templar/Rosicrucian secret society thang.


(his claim that one of the 3 wise men was "black" which is a 19th/20th centrury addition to the legend, as well as naming them, also apochraphyl)

I thought the tradition of one of the wise men being African was Medieval - lot of medieval/renaissance paintings have a black wise man in them...

[Margaret]

I will have to put Baudolino on my TBR list. I loved The Name of the Rose!

[Kveto from Prague]

It's great. The best take ever on the whole Knights Templar/Rosicrucian secret society thang.


I thought the tradition of one of the wise men being African was Medieval - lot of medieval/renaissance paintings have a black wise man in them...

Really? I dont think ive seen anything like that before. (not that i dont think its possible, id be really curious to see one). the idea of one white, one black and one asian just seems increadably PC revisionist type history. Particularly as they were most likely Jewish councilors.

heres the first one i found
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images2/magi1.jpg

heres another
http://www.draughtshistory.nl/alfonsopagina.jpg

havent found any medieval(bauldolino was set in the 12th century) "african" wisemen yet. not saying they arent out there, tho.

ok, havent found any painting yet, but some info from the 15th century states that one of them was occasionaly given "moorish" features and another "asian" features, so the PCedness started much earlier than id thought.

ok, thats all my research for tonight:-)

[Kveto from Prague]

I will have to put Baudolino on my TBR list. I loved The Name of the Rose!


I cant recommend it enough. its not for everybody but i think you are familar with my tastes a bit, Margaret.

If you like "rose" then you will like "bauldolino". its full of surprises, too.

[Leo62]

Here's a famous one by Bruegel:
http://www.sai.msu.su/wm/paint/auth/bruegel/adoration.jpg

If you do a Google image search for "Adoration of the Magi" you'll probably find a load more. :D

[Margaret]

I think it was the idea that the Magi came from "afar" that gave people the idea of including a Moor. The Crusades, which began with a crusade against the Moors in Spain, made people familiar with dark-skinned people - and in medieval times, the Spanish Moors and other Arabic cultures had a stronger tradition of higher education, so it was natural to include them among the "Magi," learned men with exceptional wisdom and astrological expertise.

[Kveto from Prague]

yeah, but Bruegel was 16th century(?) at the earliest. a little more enlightened times and more worldly period. I was looking for something more from Baldolinos time, the 1100s. cant find anything pre-renassance, but it could be out there.

but shows i was wrong about 19th/20th:-)

[Ash]

Funny, I happened to find a very nice hard back edition of Bauldolino in our work room in the give away box. Had always wanted to try it, so now its in the pile. For some reason I couldn't get into Name of the Rose but I think it might have been the mystery element of it. We'll see how this one goes

[Eigon]

The idea of the three wise men being three different races had nothing to do with political correctness - it was all about medieval theology. The idea was that Christ had come as Saviour of all the World, so logically representatives of all the nations of the world had to be present at the birth. It was also common for the three wise men to be young (the black one, usually), middle aged (the Asian one) and old (the white one), to represent the three ages of man as well.
Of course, they never thought of including any women in there!

[Kveto from Prague]

The idea of the three wise men being three different races had nothing to do with political correctness - it was all about medieval theology. The idea was that Christ had come as Saviour of all the World, so logically representatives of all the nations of the world had to be present at the birth. It was also common for the three wise men to be young (the black one, usually), middle aged (the Asian one) and old (the white one), to represent the three ages of man as well.
Of course, they never thought of including any women in there!


Really? there was no PC in the 16th century?:-)

Mary is usually included in creches so theres at least one woman in there:-)

[Eigon]

Mary had to be there - even if they'd wanted to, the medieval artists couldn't airbrush her out of the picture. And, as Mother of God, she was a special case.

What I really meant, and I should have made myself clearer, was that none of the medieval artists (or later) thought to include any women as representatives of the human race.

[Leo62]

What I really meant, and I should have made myself clearer, was that none of the medieval artists (or later) thought to include any women as representatives of the human race.

I believe there was serious debate in the Middle Ages about whether women were actually human at all. :eek:

[Village]

Baudolino really is excellent. Everyone knows the Name of the Rose, and it is rightly hailed as brilliant, but Baudolino is extraordinary too. The first chapter in particular had me in stitches and the section with Hypatia.

[Kveto from Prague]

Baudolino really is excellent. Everyone knows the Name of the Rose, and it is rightly hailed as brilliant, but Baudolino is extraordinary too. The first chapter in particular had me in stitches and the section with Hypatia.

Bauldolino's first chapter is absolute perfection. I found myself both hoping he'd continue in that vein and also fearing that he'd do so as it would make for a difficult read.

As it is, a perfect beginning.