Ken Follett

[Margaret]

Ken Follett's novels set in medieval England, Pillars of the Earth and World Without End, were both bestsellers. I have to be happy about that, because they have introduced a lot of people to the joys of historical fiction who might otherwise have assumed it was all just fluffy romance or tomes that only history professors could love. I enjoyed these novels, though they are not on my top ten list of best historical fiction of all time. Follett wrote thrillers before he wrote these novels, and his skill at crafting a story is evident. These are also well-researched in many respects. He knows an amazing amount about cathedrals were built, and weaves this knowledge into Pillars of the Earth without ever dragging the story down. My chief complaint is that his characters' attitudes often feel too modern for the times they lived in, which made them feel less real to me.

I've reviewed Pillars of the Earth at http://http://www.HistoricalNovels.info/Pillars_of_the_Earth.html.

My review of World Without End is at http://http://www.HistoricalNovels.info/World_Without_End.html.

[tsjmom]

While I have enjoyed several of his other novels, POTE was boring, boring, boring IMHO! I wasn't interested in the minute architectural detail, it was 2x as long is it should have been, and how many times did we have to go on the "merry go round" of good builder vs evil baron?

[Vanessa]

I loved Pillars of the Earth and have World Without End on my TBR pile.

I thought it was just one big adventure - Prior Philip and the Cathedral of Doom!! I also got vibes of Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, with the outlaws, saracens and Lincoln green clothes.

I thought the plot flowed along quite swiftly, it was very easy to read. I think that the writing was fairly simple and the author did seem to repeat himself. I found the story a little convenient sometimes, quite mad in fact, but I could cope with it - I just got totally involved in it all. However, I did find the rape scenes quite graphic. But all in all I found it a fabulous read.

[MLE]

Dropped this clunker at the first rape scene. I chacked and discovered that many more, all equally and unnecessarily graphic, were still to come. The period details were inaccurate, the realities of the characters lives ditto, flat one-sided protags, and stunk so far -- it didn't look like it was going to get better. Even though, as a architect's daughter, I love discussion about buildings.
So I found something better to do.

[Misfit]

I wish I had dropped it, although I ended up skimming quite a bit to get it over with. Interestingly this year I read Pargeter's Heaven Tree Trilogy (published well before Pillars) and it's about a master stone mason hired to build a great cathedral. Sound familiar?

This was the book wherein I learned to look at the one star reviews as well as the five star glowing reviews. I would probably have avoided it and/or gone to the lib and saved my $$$.

[EC2]

I read it a while ago - like late 80's and thought it needed a good edit (confirmed by someone I know in publishing who said that they'd wanted to edit it but daren't because the author has a reputation for being awkward about that kind of thing and as a bestseller anyway, they A) didn't want to upset him, B) why fix it when it's not broke in terms of sales.
Second time around (about 3yrs ago) I read it for a group read on an e-list and in the light of increased historical knowledge and dare I say it maturity, found that I was reading a wall banger. The historical accuracy is poor - anachronisms of detail and mindset on just about every page and the sexual violence in it is not of the Medieval era, but owes more to grubby 20thC fantasies. The 'period' feel I received from it was Hollywood with a rating of 18. It is a page turner though.

[Susan]

I have to admit I did enjoy both books. For me, they were a fun read like the Indiana Jones films are fun films. Neither are "great" in their artistic fields, but you can have a good time with them. My husband even read them and he always calls my books boring!

[Misfit]

I have to admit I did enjoy both books. For me, they were a fun read like the Indiana Jones films are fun films. Neither are "great" in their artistic fields, but you can have a good time with them. My husband even read them and he always calls my books boring!


Now when people approach the book(s) with that attitude I have no problem. My hissy fits were all those people raving over this historical masterpiece -- an accurate representation the time and more. Funny, one of my Amzn friends recently reviewed WWOE and made a point that it was not an historicaly correct depiction, that it was to be read for fun (although even then I disagree with that much sex and violence being fun). I had to leave her a comment that even her review couldn't convince me to read another KF novel. :o:p

[Margaret]

What did you think of Heaven Tree, Misfit? It's one of my all-time favorites. Much better IMHO than Pillars.

[Misfit]

Margaret, I loved it. I have a review of it posted here and at Amazon.

[Ash]

Not sure you want to get me started on this book, but suffice to say that I have a review on Amazon that you can read, which has been mostly well received. No, I did not like this book, and wish I could wash out some of the scenes that are still in my brain.

[Misfit]

Ash, you never found the thread on the old board where EC and I got started on that topic. You are not alone :):p:rolleyes:

[Margaret]

Enjoyed your review, Misfit.

[annis]

Edith Pargeter's "Heaven Tree" trilogy is amongst her best work in my opinion, with memorable imagery and an emotional warmth rather missing in her "Brothers of Gwynedd" quartet.

I rather enjoyed "Pillars of Earth" as a historical adventure, though I haven't rushed to read "World Without End".
The most recent Follettt novel which I read was "Jackdaws" (http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm?book_number=935), a story about an all-women team of covert agents operating in German-occupied France during WW11. Follett does write a good thriller, but I have noticed a recurring element of sexual violence in his novels which leaves a nasty after-taste.

[Margaret]

There's sexual violence in World Without End, too. I hadn't thought of it as a dominant element in Follett's novels, but that may be largely because the two medieval historicals are so long that there's a lot of other things in them as well. And then, there are a lot of novels, both good and bad, with sexual violence in them. As Meat Loves Salt, which I thought an extremely fine novel, also had some graphic scenes of sexual violence.

[EC2]

Margaret, I didn't find sexual violence a dominant theme in POTE when set against the rest of the novel. As you say it's a long one with many strands running. But when sex does crop up, most of the time it's not tender and the author - as I recall - seems to use imagery of breast-squeezing on more than one occasion. The images on paper left me wanting to go and have a wash. They felt grubby and unpleasant. Yuk.

[Leyland]

Follett's A Place Called Freedom recently surfaced out of a box of 'maybe I'll read it agains' and since I'd forgotten what it was about since the first time I read it, I went to Amazon. Here are some interesting bits from the Publishers Weekly section:

"All this time, his fate is intertwined with that of Lizzie Hallim, daughter of the impoverished laird of High Glen, who is as spirited, independent-minded and daring as is Mack himself. (Readers may not quite believe her sexual aggressiveness, but Follett knows how to strike chords with feminists.)"

"If the dialogue sometimes seems lifted from a bodice-ripper, and if far-fetched coincidences keep flinging Lizzie and Mack together, these flaws are redeemed by Follett's vigorous narrative drive and keen eye for character."


Sexual aggressiveness and daring in a well-born young lady meant to marry well to restore family fortune (I don't think so) and then the bodice ripper dialogue (a nice way to describe rape?). It's just hard to take him seriously as an HF writer when he continues to add these elements in what are otherwise interesting stories. He just doesn't need to interject these sexual scenes and behaviour.

[Leyland]

Margaret, I didn't find sexual violence a dominant theme in POTE when set against the rest of the novel. As you say it's a long one with many strands running. But when sex does crop up, most of the time it's not tender and the author - as I recall - seems to use imagery of breast-squeezing on more than one occasion.

I've cut and pasted the following from Follett's website:

Munich-based Tandem Productions has taken an option on the rights to produce The Pillars of the Earth as a television series, in conjunction with Ridley and Tony Scott's production company, Scott Free Inc. More information will be posted here as the project develops.


If the project goes through and Ridley Scott directs, I wonder how he will treat multiple rape scenes and molestation. Maybe those elements of the story will be subdued or cut out entirely?

[Misfit]

Yikes! A movie version. What else can one expect, I've also seen a board game of some sort based on Pillars promoted on Amazon.

I know that at times sex and violence can't be avoided in a book, but a better author can let the reader know what has happened without going into such extreme, excruciating minute detail. And not just once, but over and over and over. I seem to recall the rape of the prostitute as being particularly offensive, although I don't recall the specific details now.

All that said, I frankly found his writing to be quite dreadful even without the sex and violence. That was my first and last by this author.

[diamondlil]

It's kind of surprising that this is happening now given how long ago Pillars was originally published, unless it has been optioned before and nothing really happened with it.

[Margaret]

Those scenes could easily be toned down for film and retain their value in terms of plot and character development. On rare occasions, the filmed version of a novel is superior to the novel. I've remarked in another thread that I thought the omission of a particular incident in Girl With a Pearl Earring was a good choice when the movie was filmed (and would, IMHO, have improved the novel). Another movie I thought was far superior to the novel was the film of Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October - not a historical novel, but a case in point. However, I suspect the modern-people-in-fancy-dress aspect of Pillars will not be altered for film. (Although I thought World Without End was a worse offender in that regard.) We should not forget that many people did behave quite despicably in the Middle Ages (as some still do).

[Ash]

>We should not forget that many people did behave quite despicably in the Middle Ages (as some still do).

No question. But I don't need to see (and I do see them in my head when I read) over the top descriptions of rape and torture several times in a book to know that people acted like this. Other authors have shown these atrocities without detailing them, if you know what I mean.

[EC2]

I didn't believe in Follett's version of the despicable behaviour though. It was all 'bwa ha ha my pretty, I'm going to ravish you now!' sort of stuff. Totally pantomime and almost slapstick, but at the same time nasty and vile. Atrocities were committed but the way these are written feels like feeding a modern appetite for titilation - if that makes sense? Probably not. It's my bed-time!:o

[Leyland]

Atrocities were committed but the way these are written feels like feeding a modern appetite for titilation - if that makes sense? Probably not. It's my bed-time!:o

It does make sense - as if he was appealing to the same people who now love certain reality TV shows that particularly do well when humiliation is heaped upon 'ordinary and real' participants. Demeaning and degrading actions on some shows do titillate enough viewers to keep them coming back.

I'm not sure this is an accurate comparison on the whole, but I've not read a majority of reviews of POTE or WWE that complain about the type of violent sexual content in these novels either.

[Margaret]

I've got to agree with EC and Leyland. Follett did a lot of great research about the technical realities of the time period, but I just didn't find his characters convincing. Not only were the villains over the top, most of his good-guy characters were just too nice.

Ash, I know what you mean about overly graphic violence. I probably have a higher tolerance than you do, but there are authors who linger on it to the extent that it feels like a pornography of violence. For example, after reading one Clive Cussler novel, I will not read any more.

[Juniper]

Dropped this clunker at the first rape scene. I chacked and discovered that many more, all equally and unnecessarily graphic, were still to come. The period details were inaccurate, the realities of the characters lives ditto, flat one-sided protags, and stunk so far -- it didn't look like it was going to get better. Even though, as a architect's daughter, I love discussion about buildings.
So I found something better to do.

I really enjoyed POTE, although the rape scene was far too graphic for my liking. I tore the page out of the book (I can honestly say that is the only book I have ever damaged in my life).

[princess garnet]

Ken Follett will be online tomorrow 12 noon Eastern (US) for a book discussion on "Washington Post Book World":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/10/24/DI2008102402765.html?hpid=discussions
Here's your chance to interact with him and ask questions!