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Earth calling Annis, Earth calling Annis!
A question for you. What do you know (can find out) about Llewelyn ap Iorwerth's children, both legitimate and illegitimate? I have Gruffudd, Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus and Margaret, but, apart from Dafydd, do not know (for sure) who were legitimate by his wife Joan, herself the illegitimate daughter of King John, or illegitimate by his mistress Tangwystl and/or others.
In particular, what do you know of another possible daughter, Susanna, who was apparently given into the care of the King of England in 1228??
You know everything, so this should be easy!!!!!!!!
annis
07-14-2009, 08:26 PM
Posted by Ken
You know everything, so this should be easy!!!!!!!!
Yikes! I'm just off to work, Ken, but will have a bit of a hunt this evening and see what I can find-- I assure you that I'm not not infallible, though :)
Ken, Sharon Kay Penman just talked about that on her blog, answering a question from another poster. If Annis can't help, she probably could.
annis
07-15-2009, 06:16 AM
Ken, after doing a quick recce I have to agree with Ash. Welsh medieval genealogy is a quagmire into which I might sink never to be seen again! It definitely needs someone experienced in searching Welsh records.
Susanna is a particular bone of contention. Is she Susanna verch Gruffyd, Susanna Fawr or Susanna verch Llewelyn? Did she marry Maol Choluim II, Earl of Fife? It's generally accepted that Maol Choluim married another of Llewelyn's daughters, Helen/Elen (is she the Elen of Barbara Erskine's "Child of the Phoenix"? It's a long time since iIread it, but it rings a bell.) However a Mar Family genealogy proposes that Maol Cholium may have married 2 daughters of Llewelyn. You might be interested in looking at this Mar family website:
http://www.geocities.com/janet_ariciu/Mar.html
Sorry to disappoint you, but this is a question in need of an expert-- best of luck with finding an answer :)
Ken, Sharon Kay Penman just talked about that on her blog, answering a question from another poster. If Annis can't help, she probably could.
Hi Ash,
Yes I know. My question to Annis was partly based on an exchange I have had on SKP's blog with her and Shauna. I provided them with a reference to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (a great site!) and an article on 'Joan, wife of llewelyn the Great' by Louise J Wilkinson in 'Thirteenth Century England, Proceedings of the 10 Durham Conference 2003.'
There are differences of opinion among the experts over which of Llewelyn's children were by Tangwystl or by Joanna. SKP's authority, A.D. Carr, says that Joanna was the mother of Dafydd and Elen (Helen) and may 'possibly' have been the mother of Gwladys and Margaret. Tangwystl was definitely the mother of Gruffudd who died in the fall from the tower of London. I think from memory that it is the ODNB which mentions another daughter Susanna and I have seen her name mentioned in other sources as having been put in the care of the king of England in 1228. SKP has doubts as to her existence!
Llewelyn was known to have had several mistresses (and a 'wife'?) before he married Joanna and I have seen one source which said he remarried (who ??) after her death.
Keen to see what the Oracle can discover!!!
Fun, isn't it?
Ken, after doing a quick recce I have to agree with Ash. Welsh medieval genealogy is a quagmire into which I might sink never to be seen again! It definitely needs someone experienced in searching Welsh records.
Susanna is a particular bone of contention. Is she Susanna ap Gruffyd, Susanna Fawr or Susanna ap Llewelyn? Did she marry Maol Choluim II, Earl of Fife? It's generally accepted that Maol Choluim married another of Llewelyn's daughters, Helen/Elen (is she the Elen of Barbara Erskine's "Child of the Phoenix"/ It's a long time since i read it, but it rings a bell. However a Mar Family genealogy proposes that Maol Cholium may have married 2 daughters of Llewelyn. You might be interested in looking at this Mar family website:
http://www.geocities.com/janet_ariciu/Mar.html
Sorry to disappoint you, but this is a question in need of an expert-- best of luck with finding an answer :)
Thanks Annis
My reply to ASH sailed past yours in the stratosphere going in the opposite direction!
I'll follow up your suggestions
annis
07-15-2009, 06:54 AM
Meant to ask you, Ken , whether you've read Margaret Redfern's novel "Flint" (http://www.honno.co.uk/dangos.php?ISBN=1906784043)? It's about the building of Edward I's new castle -- sounds as if it might be in your area of interest.
I guess even oracles can have the odd off-day :)
Meant to ask you, Ken , whether you've read Margaret Redfern's novel "Flint" (http://www.honno.co.uk/dangos.php?ISBN=1906784043)? It's about the building of Edward I's new castle -- sounds as if it might be in your area of interest.
I guess even oracles can have the odd off-day :)
Thanks for that reference Annis - just bought it from Amazon for £5.25! Following on from your lead on the Mar family tree and the ODNB, I am chasing down the man Nicholas de Verdon (Verdun?), to whose care Susanna is said to have been given. Let you know how I get on!
You're allowed half a day off!
annis
07-15-2009, 10:15 AM
A very off-day - just noticed I wrote Susanna ap instead of verch :( Have changed it quickly before anyone Welsh notices!
Hi Ash,
Llewelyn was known to have had several mistresses (and a 'wife'?) before he married Joanna and I have seen one source which said he remarried (who ??) after her death.
He is purported after Joanna had died, to have married Eve, daughter of Fulke FitzWarin lord of Whittington. I don't remember where I read it, but I know I did whilst researching my novel Lords of the White Castle.
FitzWarin was a marcher lord and at times had been LLewelyn's ally against King John. At one point Llewelyn had sheltered FitzWarin at his court in Wales.
A very off-day - just noticed I wrote Susanna ap instead of verch :( Have changed it quickly before anyone Welsh notices!
I noticed! Shame on you Oracle!
annis
07-15-2009, 08:49 PM
I've decided that people dabbling in Welsh history must be in a state of permanent confusion (maybe I can make that my excuse for getting my Welsh wrong?) Everything you read about Llywelyn's family says something different!
Wikipedia's article on Elen ferch Llywelyn feels that the Llywelyn daughter who married the Earl of Fife was probably Susanna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn
This theory is supported by yet another Scottish genealogy of the MacDuffs, which says that Maol Choluim II's first wife was a Helen, but of Scottish birth, and that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was his second wife.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hwbradley/aqwg1582.htm#32223
Some sources say Susanna was illegitimate, some that she was legitimate, and some that she never existed at all. Blimey!
I've decided that people dabbling in Welsh history must be in a state of permanent confusion (maybe I can make that my excuse for getting my Welsh wrong?) Everything you read about Llywelyn's family says something different!
Wikipedia's article on Elen ferch Llywelyn feels that the Llywelyn daughter who married the Earl of Fife was probably Susanna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn
This theory is supported by yet another Scottish genealogy of the MacDuffs, which says that Maol Choluim II's first wife was a Helen, but of Scottish birth, and that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was his second wife.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hwbradley/aqwg1582.htm#32223
Some sources say Susanna was illegitimate, some that she was legitimate, and some that she never existed at all. Blimey!
Just to let you know I have made some progress. CPR, 1225-1232, p.230 states that the 'king's dear and faithful Nicholas de Verdun (Verdon?) and his wife,Clementia, were granted custody of 'Susan' our niece, the daughter of Llywelyn prince of North Wales and Joanna his wife, our sister, to be brought up safe and secure without all injury.'
Conjecture that Susanna had been handed over as a hostage for Llywelyn's good behaviour? I'm looking up what happened in 1228 to see why ha would have had to hand over hostages. I'll let you know what I find out.
BTW, thanks EC for that information.
annis
07-16-2009, 06:24 PM
You might be interested in this genealogy of Nicholas de Verdun of Staffordshire, in that it shows he had familial links with both Wales and King John, which would make him a logical choice as a guardian for a Welsh hostage, especially one related to the king himself. If Susanna was the king's grandaughter, it also makes sense of a dynastic marriage with an aristocratic and influential Scottish family.
http://www.thetintypeshop.com/family/Pegelow/Surnames/PtoR/P/Pegelow/Ahnentafel/21to30/pegelowhistory30.htm
See page here which indicates that Llywelyn was in an expansivn phase in the period under discussion, and specifically mentions the king's attempts to slow this down in 1228 and 1231.
"Companion to British History (http://books.google.com/books?id=VNAMjuMw_5kC&pg=PA608&lpg=PA608&dq=welsh+hostages+king+john+llewellyn+1228&source=bl&ots=TjRPBCyQtz&sig=iS12FwVa3dv0OIi2ah6KSpp5T7I&hl=en&ei=KG5fSoaDA9aGkQW-i6CoCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5)" by Charles Arnold-Baker, pg 608
Chatterbox
07-19-2009, 09:43 PM
Ken, sounds as if there is enough room to maneuver here to make Susanna a book character -- with a lot of research.
And yes, the central character in the Barbara Erskine book was Elen ferch Llewellyn. The genealogy struck me as a tad improbable at the time, but I can't remember why.
Ken, sounds as if there is enough room to maneuver here to make Susanna a book character -- with a lot of research.
And yes, the central character in the Barbara Erskine book was Elen ferch Llewellyn. The genealogy struck me as a tad improbable at the time, but I can't remember why.
I asked Othon and he said ok, but only after I've finished his story!!
The research, as Annis says, of the children of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Joanna is proving to be very complex! So many different theories and so much confusion between the names of those children born to them and those born to Ll ab I and Tangwystl (and possibly others!),
I have read Barbara Erskine's 'Child of the Phoenix' and she also came across the same problem when researching he 'Elen', 'Eleyne' or 'Helen.' In her AN she finally gives up and decides that that was where the novelist had to take over from the historian and so 'invented' Eleyne's story.
I have two 'Elen's' (Helens), one by Joanna and one by Tangwystl and also a possible mix-up between a 'Susanna' and a 'Gwenllian verch Llywelyn', who married into Scots blood! Another theory, going on dates of birth/death, etc, is that one of them was actually the daughter of Llewelyn ap Gruffudd, some years later!
On SKP's blog, the main thrust of the research is to hopefully prove that Gwladys Dhu (the dark) was Joanna's daughter and not Tangwystl's! Not looking promising at the moment! One source says she was born in 1194 - too early for Joanna and one date says 1205, probably possible! I'll keep looking and thanks to all for the leads.
Chatterbox
07-20-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm all in favor of letting the novelist's imagination take over -- which is why eventually with the Erskine book, I just shrugged and went on reading. I thought it was implausible history but plausible fiction, which is really what matters.
Didn't SKP write about the death of Eleanor de Montfort in childbirth and the baby as being named Gwenllian? I haven't looked at any original sources, but I remember reading somewhere else that she fetched up at one of the 'royal convents' -- places where noblewomen, etc. were handed over in exchange for some divine favor. (sorry for the cynicism...)
I'm all in favor of letting the novelist's imagination take over -- which is why eventually with the Erskine book, I just shrugged and went on reading. I thought it was implausible history but plausible fiction, which is really what matters.
Didn't SKP write about the death of Eleanor de Montfort in childbirth and the baby as being named Gwenllian? I haven't looked at any original sources, but I remember reading somewhere else that she fetched up at one of the 'royal convents' -- places where noblewomen, etc. were handed over in exchange for some divine favor. (sorry for the cynicism...)
Yup! Eleanor died in 1282 giving birth to their daughter Gwenllian and, when Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was killed later that same year, she was handed over, in her cradle, by order of Edward 1, to the nunnery of Sempringham wher she would spend the rest of her life.
Her presence there and her death was recorded by the chroniclers. Robert Manning, one of them, wrote of her courtesy and the esteem in which she was held and he reflected that in more propitious circumstances she could have been her father's solace and pride in his old age.
She died there on the 07 June 1337 aged 55 years having, apparently, never left the grounds of the nunnery!! In this case her confinement was nothing to do with an exchange for divine favour, simply that Edward, having conquered Wales, wanted none of Llywelyn's (or Dafydd's) children to have an opportunity to rebel again!
Chatterbox
07-20-2009, 05:51 PM
She died there on the 07 June 1337 aged 55 years having, apparently, never left the grounds of the nunnery!! In this case her confinement was nothing to do with an exchange for divine favour, simply that Edward, having conquered Wales, wanted none of Llywelyn's (or Dafydd's) children to have an opportunity to rebel again!
Which would be a great contrast to Edward's own daughter, Mary, who might as well have been called 'the roaming nun', according to what I have read! It seems as if she spent more time outside her Amesbury convent than at it...
I remember seeing the tomb (or at least an effigy) of a grandson of Dafydd's in the church in Betws y Coed.
Helo Annis and others interested in the children of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales and his wife, Joanna, daughter of King John, who featured so extensively in HBD by SKP.
I attach an abridged section of the paper I have sent to SKP, which she will, after some editing perhaps, link to her blog.
The paper is the result of my study of the work of many eminent genealogists and my admiration for these people and the detailed investigations they have carried out is enormous.
Hope you find it of interest!
Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn
There is much argument in genealogical circles as to who was the mother of Gwladus. It is true that there is no document or charter that states, ‘Gwladus, daughter of Llywelyn, Prince of Gwynedd and his wife Joanna of England’, or some such! Life would be made much easier if that were the case! The arguments that follow then cannot be ‘proven’, but they do provide a logical process for arriving at a conclusion:
One faction of genealogists insist that chronologically, Gwladus must have been the daughter of Tangwystl, and possibly born circa 1200 to 1201, because in 1215, she was ‘married’ to Reginald de Braose, 5th Baron of Brecknock (probably in his 40’s). She would, they argue, have therefore had to have been of marriageable age in 1215. Llywelyn and Joanna married in 1205, and if she was Joanna’s daughter, allowing a year or so after their marriage for her birth, she would have been only 8 or possibly 9 yrs old at the time of this ‘marriage’!
Another of their arguments is based on Peter C Bartrum’s ‘Welsh Genealogies,’ which gives the following table, which has been the subject of much discussion and sometimes violent argument:
“Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd
m. Margred ferch Madog (B1 ap C3)
|
Llywelyn d. 1240
(1) Joan d. King John m. 1205
(a) Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch (LL. Ho. 1)
|
Gwladus Ddu d. 1251
(1) Reginald de Braose d. 1228
(2) Ralph 11 Mortimer d. 1246 “
Bartrum does not give his sources and this table does not clearly show that Gwladus is either the daughter of Tangwystl or of Joanna. It is therefore not of much help.
Interestingly, from what I have been able to read, these seem to be the main arguments that Tangwystl’s proposers have in favour of Gwladus being the daughter of Tangwystl.
The pro-Joanna faction has more strings to its bow!
The pro-Joanna faction’s response to the ‘chronological’ problem of the age of Gwladus at her marriage in 1215 includes the following:
a). The ‘marriage’ was in fact a politically motivated ‘betrothal’ of a young girl to a forty–something English Baron. The text of the Annales Prioratus de Wigornia, 1215, describing this arrangement uses the Latin word ‘Desponsavit’, which is taken to describe a ‘betrothal’ rather than a ‘marriage’. (I ‘googled’ this word in a Latin/English dictionary and it came up with the same answer – ‘betrothal!’).
In 1215, Reginald de Braose was a widower, his first wife Grace de Briwire having died. He had a son and heir, William (the William hung by Llywelyn in 1230) as well as other issue. In 1215, he was not therefore under any inheritance-driven desire to wed for the purpose of producing an heir. Reginald de Braose would certainly have wanted to strike a political alliance with Llywelyn and a betrothal and eventual marriage to a child so highly placed as Gwladus, particularly if she was the legitimate daughter of Llywelyn by King John’s daughter Joanna, would have made perfect sense for the advancement of the family Braose.
This betrothal and subsequent ‘marriage’ produced, in over 15 years, no offspring of whom anyone is aware and, it is quite possible that the ‘marriage’ was never consummated. Immediately upon marrying Ralph de Mortimer in 1230 however, Gwladus started to produce offspring! If, as the pro-Tangwystl faction would have it, Gwladus had been born circa 1201/02 (before Llywelyn’s marriage to Joanna), she would have been in her 30th year at least before she started to produce children! This is considered unlikely, given that she produced the children of Ralph over a nine year span, which would have put her into her near 40’s for the last born.
If however, Gwladus had been born (to Joanna) in 1206 or 1207, she would have only been 22 or so at Reginald’s death (1228) and between 23 and 24 at her marriage to Ralph de Mortimer.
b). Reginald died in 1228. In 1229, Gwladus, now an eligible widow aged about 24, accompanied Joanna’s legitimate son Dafydd to King Henry’s court, where he was to pay homage to Henry and to use his blood relation to the English king to obtain his support and recognition of him as Llywelyn’s sole heir.
There is much argument over why Gwladus made this trip with Dafydd. The pro-Tangwystl faction argue that Gwladus, recently widowed, ‘needed’ to seek a new husband and Dafydd’s audience provided an ideal moment for both Llywelyn and the Mortimers to obtain Henry’s blessing to a marriage between Gwladus and Ralph de Mortimer. Her visit therefore was purely personal and had nothing to do with any ‘support’ she was giving to Dafydd to effectively disinherit her blood-brother Gruffudd.
Alternatively, as she was now a widow and lonely, she just wanted to go to London and would be safer on the journey if she went with Dafydd!
The pro-Joanna faction counters the above with the following:
The clear purpose of Dafydd’s visit to London, apart from his duty of homage, was to seek the English crown’s recognition of him as heir to Llywelyn. If Gwladus was truly Gruffudd’s blood sister by Tangwystl, would she really have participated in his disinheritance? Gruffudd was languishing in prison in Degannwy at this time and what would Senena, wife of Gruffudd made of such a (in her eyes surely) betrayal by his blood sister?
The ‘closeness’ of Gwladus to the English crown is perhaps also demonstrated by the fact that she died at Windsor in 1251 while visiting Henry 111, possibly to attend the wedding of Henry’s daughter Margaret to Alexander 111, King of the Scots. Her relationship with him was apparently good as Henry appointed her son sheriff of Hereford.
Further evidence presented to support Gwladus being the daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna:
Chronicles:
There is a clear and unambiguous statement in the chronicle of Adam of Usk that Gwladus was the daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna. Adam knew the Mortimer family well and presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late-date witness and not altogether reliable, he is quite emphatic that Gwladus was Joanna’s daughter.
Property.
The manors of Knighton and Norton (and Ellesmere in Shropshire) were gifted by John to Llywelyn as Joanna’s portion upon their marriage in 1205. In fact, by circa 1218, the properties had still not been handed over to him and they were being held by the Mortimer family. Llywelyn petitioned Henry 111 to force the Mortimers to hand the properties over and Henry’s council vindicated Llywelyn’s claim and held him blameless if he had to resort to action to regain his rights to the lands gifted under his marriage. The lands came into Llywelyn’s possession in 1218 and the Mortimers were forced to drop their illegal claim to them.
Upon the marriage of Gwladus to Ralph de Mortimer in 1230, Llywelyn and Joan bequeathed Knighton and Norton to Ralph because they were part of their daughter’s inheritance. This followed a similar passing of Joanna’s magaritum lands (Ellesmere?) to Gwladus’ sister Ellen, Joanna’s proven daughter, when she married John the Scot in 1220 and goes to show that this transfer of lands to Gwladus was consistent with those to other blood family members.
Children of Gwladus and Ralph de Mortimer.
1. Roger de Mortimer, born ca. 1231
Heir and successor to Ralph de Mortimer and probably named in honour of Ralph’s father, Roger de Mortimer.
2. Hugh de Mortimer, born ca. 1233
Probably named in honour of Ralph’s grandfather, Hugh de Mortimer (d. ca. 1180)
3. John de Mortimer, born ca. 1235
There is no prior use of the name John in the family of Ralph de Mortimer and we can assume that if Gwladus’ mother was a Welshwoman, it would not have been used in that family either. Further, if Gwladus was Gruffudd’s blood-sister, how likely would it be for her to name her son after the father of the man (King Henry) and the woman Joanna who had brought political ruin to her own immediate family?
Everything points therefore to the choice of the name John for her son being in memory of her paternal grandfather through Joanna.
4. Joan de Mortimer, born ca. 1236 Wife of Peter Corbet, 1st Lord Corbet (d. before 1300).
Surely evidence that Gwladus wanted to honour her mother of the same name. If she had been Tangwystl’s daughter, this would certainly have been an insult. (Note: Gwladus’ sister Ellen, in similar fashion, named a daughter Joan for their mother.)
5. Peter de Mortimer, born ca. 1237 of which virtually nothing is known.
6. Isolda de Mortimer, born ca. 1239
Assumptions made that her name is a Welsh equivalent of Isabel. If correct, probably named after Ralph’s mother, Isabel de Ferrieres.
Conclusion
‘Medieval Genealogy’ as described by one eminent genealogist, ‘is not properly conducted by piling assumption on top of speculation on top of plausibility on top of likelihood and then coming to a “conclusion”!’
However, while that statement is undoubtedly true, a review of the opinions of several professional genealogists provides a general consensus that Gwladus Ddu can be reasonably identified as the daughter of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth by Joanna, daughter (subsequently legitimised) of John, King of England.
Susanna ferch Llywelyn
The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, under Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and on the subject of his daughter, Susanna states: ‘The fourth daughter, Susanna, does not appear in the pedigrees; in November 1228 she was put in the care of Nicholas de Verdon (un) and his wife and that is the only reference to her.’
My first step therefore was to look up the genealogy of this Nicholas de Verdun. I found a reference in the CPR for 1225-1232, p.230. In 1228, a certain Nicholas de Verdun, appeared to be in of Henry 111’s favor, and this favor manifested itself when the king’s … ‘dear and faithful Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clementia were granted custody of ‘Susanna’ our niece, the daughter of Llywelyn, prince of North Wales and Joanna his wife, to be brought up safe and secure without all injury.’
Susanna was almost certainly being held in England as a hostage for the good behaviour of her father, Llywelyn, who had been pursuing an expansive phase, fighting with the Marshall William 11 and also Hubert de Burgh. Henry needed to bring him to heel somewhat.
The genealogists all consider it significant that Nicholas’ wife Clementia is included here as, under normal circumstances, she would not be mentioned. The fact that she is so named suggests that she had some interest in Susanna. When Susanna at some later date was given over to another guardian, the wife of that guardian was not mentioned.
What follows here is a theory advanced by some eminent genealogists, but it is fair to say that the conclusions are hotly contested!
This theory leads to a delightful and curious ‘twist’ in the story of Joanna, which may interest fans of HBD!
On the surface, there would be nothing to suggest any connection between the hostage, Susanna of Wales and Clementia, wife of Nicholas de Verdun. However, the experience of some genealogists with foreign hostages, particularly young ones, has been that they were often placed with relatives, if any were available.
Now, it is known that the mother of Joanna was called Clementia (Clemence?), one of several mistresses of King John (see also HBD!).
Jumping forward to 1236, there is an entry in the Tewkesbury annals which pertains to Joanna’s mother as “Queen Clemencie!” It reads in part:
Year 1236: Obiit domina Johanna domina Wallia, uxor Lewelini filia Regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. Kal. Aprilis.”
“(Died lady Joanna, lady of Wales, wife of Llywelyn, daughter of King John and Queen Clementia, 3 Kal. April.”
Reference: Henry Richard Luard, Annales Monastici, 1 (1864): 101.
In this case the monk was evidently indulging in medieval legalism. Before her death, Joanna had been legitimised by the Pope. On the basis of that legitimisation, the Tewksbury monk evidently took it upon himself to elevate Joanna’s mother to the status of Queen, as if her mother had been King John’s wife! It is a fact however, that King John and Clementia were never married. By referring to Joanna’s mother as “Queen” Clementia, the monk who recorded Joanna’s death was showing his extreme respect for Joanna, but not attempting to alter the true facts.
As for the identity of Clementia de Verdun, Paget shows that she was the daughter of Roger de Dauntsey, of Wiltshire. One genealogist considers it significant that Clementia hailed from Wiltshire as he has noticed that King John had a strong attachment to that county, it being the home of his most trusted allies, the Longespee, Marshall and Basset families and Geoffrey Fitz Peter. This would indicate that King John spent some time there and the possibility of an amorous liaison with Clementia exists.
Genealogists have discovered that the name ‘Clementia’ was extremely rare among English noblewomen of this period. In one table of women’s names that was compiled, there were only two occurrences of the name “Clementia” out of a total of 1407 women in the sample! The fact that anyone named Clementia would be associated with Susanna is considered significant.
So! The evidence is suggestive, but not conclusive, that in 1228, Susanna, as a hostage, was given over to the care of her maternal grandmother, now wife of Nicholas de Verdun!!
The Scottish genealogists of the MacDuffs’ hold that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was born 1214 in Gwynnedd, Wales and died c. 1259 in Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland. She married Malcolm MacDuff, Earl of Fife in 1230 and had two children: Sir Colbran MacDuff, Earl of Fife, born 1245, died 1270 and MacDuff MacDuff born 1247.
Of course, there are counter arguments to all this supposition! King John had many mistresses and possibly as many as seven illegitimate children. The mother of Joanna would have been born circa 1172 and marriageable circa 1184. Joanna herself was born circa 1191 (14 yrs old at the time of her marriage to Llywelyn). Rohese, the known legitimate daughter of Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clementia was born circa 1210-1213. If Clementia was the mother of Joanna, she would have been in her late 30’s, early 40’s when giving birth to Rohese! Not impossible, some say, but improbable.
Conclusion:
We will most probably never know the truth. Possibly however, because I want to believe it, I think that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was the last daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna. That she was given over as hostage to King Henry 111 in 1228 and was passed to the safe care of her maternal grandmother Clementia, wife of Sir Nicholas de Verdun.
Ken, sounds as if there is enough room to maneuver here to make Susanna a book character -- with a lot of research.
And yes, the central character in the Barbara Erskine book was Elen ferch Llewellyn. The genealogy struck me as a tad improbable at the time, but I can't remember why.
Chatterbox
Have a look at my earlier post today regarding Susanna and Gwladus Dhu (both ferch Llywelyn). There definitely has to be a book or two in there - EC, SKP, somebody????
annis
08-07-2009, 06:33 AM
Wow, Ken , you've been busy! Although the exact parentage, names and numbers of Llewelyn the Great's children seem to be very difficult to come to grips with, your research certainly opens up some options. Are you planning on using any of these characters in a novel yourself at some stage, or did the lure of the puzzle draw you in?
Wow, Ken , you've been busy! Although the exact parentage, names and numbers of Llewelyn the Great's children seem to be very difficult to come to grips with, your research certainly opens up some options. Are you planning on using any of these characters in a novel yourself at some stage, or did the lure of the puzzle draw you in?
Yes, It kept me pretty busy, but it was great fun!
It was SKP who first got me interested during discussions on her blog about Gwladus (HBD has her as Tangwystl's daughter) and Joanna and that led on to whether there was also a daughter called Susanna. I didn't post all of my findings here as it would have been too long, but here is another section on all of the children:
The following list of Llywelyn’s numerous legitimate and illegitimate children appears to be generally accepted by all the genealogists that I have studied. The dates of birth given below are also disputed by some:
1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, died 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, died 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1206? died circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? died circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince of Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts about this date, see later), died 25 February 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 died 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1210, died 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, possible twin to Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, born circa 1214? Died 1259?
There is general agreement that the only certain children of Llywelyn’s marriage to Joanna are Dafydd, who became Prince of Wales and Ellen (Helen) who married (1) John the Scot, son of the earl of Chester and (2) Robert de Quincy. Although opinion is divided over the mothers of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, the majority of the genealogists I have studied lean towards their mother being Joanna.
As to the names of these children, whether by Joanna, Tangwystl or others, they were all named after members of Llywelyn’s family:
Llywelyn’s mother was named ‘Margred’ (Margaret) and his maternal grandmother was named ‘Susanna’ of Gwynedd. His paternal grandmother was named ‘Gwladus’. The parents of his grandmother Susanna, were ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ of Flint and both their names were given to Llywelyn’s children. This Susanna also had a sister named ‘Gwenllian’, the same name as Llywelyn’s great grandmother. Only ‘Ellen’s’ name remains a mystery, there seems to be no-one named Ellen or Helen, except perhaps an ‘Eleanor’ on Joanna’s side (Eleanor of Aquitaine, mother of Joanna’s father King John).
No plans for a book or two on this as I'm still struggling with Othon and Edward 1! However, I do believe they would make a great subject for someone more talented than I.
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