Holy Crap! Sarah Palin to be McCain's VP pick

[Divia]

Just read it on cnn! I can't believe it. :eek: I have to readup about her cause I know nothing about her.

[Dani]

LOL i just said the same thing i was like WHO???

[Divia]

Yeah, I was reading about her n stuff. She plays hockey, how cool is that :D Anyway, seems like McCain is reaching out to those scorned women voters.

[Leyland]

I've just gotten a lot more interested in this election! Top executive level politicians generally appeal to me more than Senate/House politicians, and of course there's such a strong chance of seeing the first female VP now! Brilliant move, McCain camp!

I'm looking forward to the media blitz - both on cable and in magazines. The basic facts: she hunts and fishes (I grew up doing the same so I identify with that!), she's conservative and has a strong faith base, she's pro-life, she's young at 44, she's strong-minded and so on from what is being broadcast at this point.

[Rowan]

I'll stick with Barack Obama. At least with Democrats I don't feel like my civil rights are being taken away like the Republicans want. I'm sure if it were up to them all of my rights would be taken away and I'd be branded like Hester Prynne. Only probably in a more physical way.

[Divia]

Her husband is a union worker
She was a PTA mom
She is a member of the NRA
She took on coruption in her state
Her parents worked at a local elem school

If they wanted to attract the blue collar people aka average joe I think they may have done it.

[Michelle2]

Not this blue collar person!:)

[donroc]

Quite a personal résumé. Wonder Woman, a potential Iron Lady, or both?

An interesting choice for those of us who view politics as a spectator blood sport third only to arguments in academia and those over favorite authors, artists, dancers, and singers

[Ash]

She is anti choice and a creationist (and belives it should be taught in schools). She is a former beauty queen, was a mayor of a town of 8000 people....I dunno, if McCain wanted a woman VP to pick up on Hilary's fans, I think he is barking up the wrong tree. I live in his state, and I can think off the top of my head five women republican legislators from AZ who would have excellent qualifications for the job. Why he picked this one, who reminds me of Harriet Miers (tho prettier) is beyond me.

I will say that if I had any doubts about Obama, they were blown away by his speech last night.

[Telynor]

I was rather shocked by who McCain picked. I think in the long view, it might be a mistake -- she hasn't any experience with Washington politics, and she's anti-enviroment (thinks that polar bears ought to be taken off of the endangered species list, and that drilling should be allowed in protected preserves), pro-life, and doesn't seem to have any connections at the government level. If McCain does get in, it's going to be a very rude awakening for her.

I did watch all of Obama's speech last night, and if he can follow through with his arguments, then thank god. We need a president who actually gives a damn about the middle class and the working poor.

But to me, the important races are going to be those for congress -- if the same people who kept ok'ing Bush get back in, things aren't going to change much.

[Divia]

Well frankly I'm pleased that McCain did something Obama wouldn't do. Call me one of those scornful women I dont give a damn. I was not at all pleased by Obama's choice, and I"m still not.

[tsjmom]

I truly hate politics, but I have to say this is going to be one of the most interesting races I can remember. I liked Obama, but when he chose Biden as his running mate (whom I really liked) that pretty much sealed the deal for me. Although after 8 yrs of the worst president in American history, I would have voted for a monkey to get his cronies out of positions of power LOL!
Palin's pro-life position may negate that. He's also trying to strengthen his position with the Christian conservative, and her credentials in that area seem very solid.

Up until this election, I always admired McCain as that unique politician who stood up for what he believed in rather than just tow the party line. Both the Republican and Democrat parties have strengths and weaknesses in their policies - neither alone is perfect. As I've seen him go farther and farther to the right, when he's always been a moderate, to simply get the Republican nomination, I was dismayed. After I saw him pick a candidate who is so VASTLY UNDER QUALIFIED to be the second in command of the free world, I felt disgusted. It's crystal clear to me that it's only about winning and not about doing the right thing for him now :(

[Telynor]

That's part of the problem. It's only been about winning for several decades now, especially after the Nixon flap; that so corroded the public's confidence in our leadership that many just gave up. It's a pity too. Ford just couldn't wait to get out of office (can't blame him, he didn't want the job in the first place), Carter tried, Reagan and Bush I were there to push big business, Clinton was siderailed by scandal, and Bush II, well, we've seen what Bush II has done. I'm so disgusted by the mess that while I hope that Obama gets in, he'd better follow through on that speech from Thursday. Yes, I loath politics, but I also try to follow what is going on locally, and if there isn't someone or something to vote for, I know darn well there's going to be something to vote against.

I do hope that this will get the voters out this election.

[tsjmom]

I'm so disgusted by the mess that while I hope that Obama gets in, he'd better follow through on that speech from Thursday.

I do hope that this will get the voters out this election.

Completely agree! There were times I didn't want to vote because I didn't really like either candidate, but my DH said you have to pick the lesser of the evils.

[Divia]

Yahoo did a whole write up..I'll try to find it. What Obama said and the harsh reality of what is going to happen.

I'm jaded. And as I get older I get more jaded. I think they are all the same. Its one big chess game and the prize is America. Its nothing more than who can get that "check mate"

[Ash]

TS Mom, I am so there with you. I live in McCain's state, and even tho he is much more conservative than I, I have always voted for him (granted, he never had much competition). I liked his common sense and his independence. Then after 2000 (and I would have voted for him), things changed. He wanted to be president too much. He drank the Bush/Cheney/Rove kool-aid and the result is here (its also in that hug picture with Bush). Never mind voting for him for pres, Im not even voting for him for senator.

[LCW]

I knew McCain was going to do this, I knew it!! It doesn't matter to me because I don't like her politics and I'm not going to be fooled by this oh so transparent attempt to win Hillary voters.

I just wonder how Palin feels about McCain voting AGAINST the Violence Against Women act that Joe Biden, Obama's VP pick sponsored. And I wonder how Palin feels about McCains opposition to the Equal Pay For Equal Work act that is currently going through Congress. Of course they're both against a woman's right to choose and with 2-3 Supreme Court justice seats up for grabs in the next four years, there's no way I'm voting for McCain who has flat out stated he will nomiinate justices that will overturn Roe v. Wade.

Maybe when there's less at stake I'll consider voting for ticket with a woman on it JUST because there's a woman on it! But not right now!

Like Hillary Clinton so beautifully said: "No way, no how, no McCain"!!

[Telynor]

One thing over the years that I've started doing is that I look at what a candidate is against, and not so much is for. What frightens me so much about McCain and the rest of the Republican cabal is that they have been steadily whittling away at free speech, freedom of choice and freedom of belief, equality in the workplace and in pay, all of which falls into the hard right, evangelical movements. As a woman, and a minority, this scares the hell out of me.

[LCW]

Absolutely, Telynor! And they do it all under the guise of "National Security"! If you keep people ignorant and scared you can do almost anything. Very scary indeed!

[LCW]

I was wondering what everyone thought of all the hoopla around Palin's pregnant 17 yr. old daughter? Personally I think it goes to show that the abstinence only programs with zero real-world sex ed that her mother is for don't work! That's really the only point to be made. The rest of the sick voyerism that the media loves to engage in so much should just stop. It's a private family issue, her daughter is having the baby and her family is supporting her. That's great and I wish them well. As an unwed teenage mother (although she is supposed to marry the father) she has enough to deal with! Leave them alone!

[LoveHistory]

Thank you so much Telynor! I was beginning to think I was the only person who knows that Congress really calls the shots in this country.

I haven't made up my mind. Normally in a choice between two liars (and what else can you call politicians?) I choose the one with better advertising because he's spending his money wisely.

Strategically, McCain made a good choice. Solidifying his base, and choosing someone fresh and "an outsider" was smart move for him. It's just like Obama choosing Biden.

Lila, I absolutely agree with you that everyone needs to leave the girl alone. Maybe the Palins believe that sex-education belongs in the home rather than the school. However if anyone finds a way to make teenagers listen and actually follow their parents' advice please let me know.

[tsjmom]

I absolutely agree with you Lila re: Palin's daughter. The only other thing I though about adding is that doesn't getting pregnant out of wedlock go against the whole right wing dogma? I wonder what the Republicans would be saying if it was a Democrat's daughter going thru this ("liberal moral values"...) I just think it's ironic.

[amyb]

I'm sorry, but with 5 kids, the eldest being a 17 year old unmarried pregnant girl and her 5 month old having Down Syndrome she needs to be home taking care of her own family!! I also question her judgement to accept the nomination when her daughter is going through one of the toughest decisions of her life (trust me, I know) and she is thrust into the media to be ripped apart. I feel sorry for her kids....and for us if she's elected.

[MLE]

Hey, folks, this is supposed to be an HF forum. I notice the conservatives among us tend to be much more reserved, how about a little restraint on the part of the liberals?
Surely there are political forums full of like-minded posters where it would be more tactful to air these opinions.
Just so you know -- I used to march for abortion. Now I have kids, and I've counseled many, many women traumatized by abortions. I no longer hold those views, and some of you may change as well.

Silence isn't always golden -- sometimes it's yellow.

[LoveHistory]

Actually, per the New Testament, premarital sex is not considered a sin if you get married.

And Amyb, my mother agrees with you. She also thinks the Obama girls deserve a chance for a normal life.

[Divia]

I'm sorry, but with 5 kids, the eldest being a 17 year old unmarried pregnant girl and her 5 month old having Down Syndrome she needs to be home taking care of her own family!! I also question her judgement to accept the nomination when her daughter is going through one of the toughest decisions of her life (trust me, I know) and she is thrust into the media to be ripped apart. I feel sorry for her kids....and for us if she's elected.

No one would say that if she were a man. Just throwin it out there.

[Tanzanite]

So true. Besides, the behaviour of a 17 year old child should not necessarily reflect negatively on the parents. Even the best parents have children who do things (or believe things) that they (the parents) would not agree with or would think is wrong. At this age, children have their own minds and their own beliefs and are responsible for their own actions - including taking responsibility for them. You can not control a teenager (nor do you really want to) - you can only guide them. That is part of the growing up process.

[donroc]

Also, Pelosi has 5 kids and no one in the media ever questioned her fitness as a mother. How many other women with children who hold political office have been told to stay home? No men of course. Where were Mrs. Edward small children when she was on the campaign trail?

Let's face it. If Palin were a Democrat, she would receive the Helen Reddy Award. It seems the media "feminists" approve only if one is a liberal by their standards.

Hypocracy Award contest is now on.

[MLE]

Let him or her who never did anything that might result in an extramarital pregnancy, or who can swear their kids didn't, or never will, cast the first stone.

[Ash]

I am really tired of this whole thing. There are many other things coming out about Palin right now that people need to read and hear about. The pregnancy is a smoke screen.

And MLE you are right of course about this being a History forum. But this is 'chat' and I assume thats open? If not, someone needs to define what the 'chat thread' is for. And BTW I do like your statement above.

[LCW]

Let's face it. If Palin were a Democrat, she would receive the Helen Reddy Award. It seems the media "feminists" approve only if one is a liberal by their standards.

Hypocracy Award contest is now on.

That's a completely false accusation!! I'm as liberal as they come and I think that saying she should be home with her kids and is a bad mother for being a politician right now is absolutely repulsive and inexcusable. In the history of this country it is the Liberals who have consistently stood up for women's rights. Maybe a few people are saying such idiotic things but it's not the general consensus of liberals everywhere at all. And as far as "media feminists" go, have you watched Fox or MSNBC lately????

[donroc]

Yes, and have you seen CNN and read Dowd and Fleming?

[Divia]

some of my friends said that she has too many kids and that she should have had some abortions. I thought that was an odd statement.

[boswellbaxter]

She doesn't seem too fond of the First Amendment. From today's New York Times:

Shortly after becoming mayor, former city officials and Wasilla residents said, Ms. Palin approached the town librarian about the possibility of banning some books, though she never followed through and it was unclear which books or passages were in question.


Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who said she attended every City Council meeting in Ms. Palin’s first year in office, said Ms. Palin brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting. “They were somehow morally or socially objectionable to her,” Ms. Kilkenny said.


The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, pledged to “resist all efforts at censorship,” Ms. Kilkenny recalled. Ms. Palin fired Ms. Emmons shortly after taking office but changed course after residents made a strong show of support. Ms. Emmons, who left her job and Wasilla a couple of years later, declined to comment for this article.


In 1996, Ms. Palin suggested to the local paper, The Frontiersman, that the conversations about banning books were “rhetorical.”


Wonder what former librarian Laura Bush thinks of her?

[Eyza]

Ash:

I agree with you on that. Besides, nobody nowadays really cares whether a 17 year old girl gets pregnant and has a baby. Kids with too many horrmones do it all the time, though I have the distinct impression that any relationship between her and the father of the child is going to be a disaster. But that's her problem. Not the country's. And you're right. There's plenty of "stuff" about Palin(among other things, she doesn't think the ice is melting or that polar bears are in trouble, and that's just for starters), that one could gripe about if one wants to gripe about politicians. And apparently there's a lot more. Personally, I think as Vice President, she'd be another disaster, but that's just my opinion.
Anne G


I am really tired of this whole thing. There are many other things coming out about Palin right now that people need to read and hear about. The pregnancy is a smoke screen.

And MLE you are right of course about this being a History forum. But this is 'chat' and I assume thats open? If not, someone needs to define what the 'chat thread' is for. And BTW I do like your statement above.

[Telynor]

Ultimately, if a teenager gets pregnant, it's her parents problem -- yes, abstinence is a wonderful thing, but if you have raging hormones and unsupervised teens, it's a pretty good bet that someone might turn up pregnant. Personally, I think that with an infant with Down's Syndrome, and a teenage mother on the way, Ms. Palin might find more prudent to be at home with her family, as both of those conditions require a helluva lot of time and hands on care. On a personal viewpoint, the amount of sex education I recieved from my mother was 'If you get pregnant, I will kill you.' Considering her personality, I didn't dare mess around.

As to the abortion question, I think a woman should always have the right to choose for herself whether or not to full term with a child, and have the option to terminate or not, and have safe medical care. In the end, it should be _her_ decision, and not one for the religious right or politicians to decide. Yes, I had to make that choice once, and it was a godawful decision. In the end, it turned out to be right one. I don't know of any woman who made the decision to have an abortion making it on a whim. And I never want to hear of women having to resort to self-abortions or going to some hack of a doctor to get one, because of right wing moralizing men (as most anti-abortion fanatics are) deciding that all life is holy.

If it's so sacred, then get programs in place to help those who need it in both the pre term and post-term births, and help them raise healthy, well-adjusted children who can prosper. Otherwise, it is hypocrisy at the worst, and just another means of controlling women.

Sorry to be so longwinded here, but it's an issue that I feel very strongly about.

[diamondlil]

And MLE you are right of course about this being a History forum. But this is 'chat' and I assume thats open? If not, someone needs to define what the 'chat thread' is for. And BTW I do like your statement above.


As long as everyone remains civil and respectful these kinds of threads will be allowed.

[Divia]

a lot of teens do stupid things and things their parents wouldnt want them to do. Its typical. Should it have happened. In a perfect world no. But it did.. and it sucks. But I dont think the medai should focus in on it.

The library book banning thing is interseting though....

[amyb]

Ultimately, if a teenager gets pregnant, it's her parents problem -- yes, abstinence is a wonderful thing, but if you have raging hormones and unsupervised teens, it's a pretty good bet that someone might turn up pregnant. Personally, I think that with an infant with Down's Syndrome, and a teenage mother on the way, Ms. Palin might find more prudent to be at home with her family, as both of those conditions require a helluva lot of time and hands on care. On a personal viewpoint, the amount of sex education I recieved from my mother was 'If you get pregnant, I will kill you.' Considering her personality, I didn't dare mess around.

As to the abortion question, I think a woman should always have the right to choose for herself whether or not to full term with a child, and have the option to terminate or not, and have safe medical care. In the end, it should be _her_ decision, and not one for the religious right or politicians to decide. Yes, I had to make that choice once, and it was a godawful decision. In the end, it turned out to be right one. I don't know of any woman who made the decision to have an abortion making it on a whim. And I never want to hear of women having to resort to self-abortions or going to some hack of a doctor to get one, because of right wing moralizing men (as most anti-abortion fanatics are) deciding that all life is holy.

If it's so sacred, then get programs in place to help those who need it in both the pre term and post-term births, and help them raise healthy, well-adjusted children who can prosper. Otherwise, it is hypocrisy at the worst, and just another means of controlling women.

Sorry to be so longwinded here, but it's an issue that I feel very strongly about.

I totally agree with you!

[princess garnet]

One blogger who I regularly read wrote there's no perfect family and the Palins are handling it with grace and love.

I think the father of the baby needs to be held accountable.

[tsjmom]

I think some of the media surrounding the Palin/daughter pregnant issue is that this is happening (in the limelight) in the more conservative party, which generally preaches abstinence, etc. I do believe if this had happened in the democratic party, the talk would've been about "loose liberal values". It is what it is and she and her family will be dealing with this the rest of their lives. Hopefully they and the baby will be healthy and grounded in the long run.

Let me preface my next statement by saying I view myself as a moderate but definitely lean more left than right. I'm also a SAHM of three elementary school age kids. I actually believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to have it all. Five kids, a newborn with Down Syndrome, a pregnant, unwed teen - these need more than a nanny or part time Mom. Someone will be short changed, either her kids or the country. I also don't believe a Dad running for office will be able to be the best Dad he could be. Is he going to coach his kids soccer team? be there for all the little moments like recitals and programs? Either he's going to miss a lot of those or he'll be rescheduling meetings with heads of state.

Kids need both parents around for the short time they're kids. Yes, I realize there are always exceptions (I happen to be one of those - child of a nasty divorce, alcoholic stepdad, bipolar mom, etc). I just personally believe that Palin's little baby would benefit much more from being held by his/her Mom than another caregiver. Just my opinion (and I'm sticking to it ;) )

[LCW]

I watched the Republican Convention tonight, including Palin's speech. Yikes is all I can say! And 'ol Dubya talks about the angry LEFT? :confused:

[Telynor]

I watched the Republican Convention tonight, including Palin's speech. Yikes is all I can say! And 'ol Dubya talks about the angry LEFT? :confused:

Scary wasn't it? What frightens me is that a lot of the Republicans are thoroughly convinced that they are right, and they will go to nearly any lengths to prove it to everyone else (I still feel that Bush II stole the last two elections). Just keep telling yourself that the real power is still with the voters, and that it does matter who you vote into Congress. At least that's what I'm trying to tell myself...

I am so thoroughly disgusted with the campaign. Nov. 4th can't get here soon enough.

[LCW]

Ugh, I know! Right now I'm just proud to be the with the party of "One America" instead of the hate-filled divisive vitriole I saw tonight. I was actually looking forward to Palin's speech as I think women in prominent positions, regardless of political leanings, are good for women everywhere....clearly there are exceptions to every rule!

On the other hand, if the worst happens and McCain wins, he probably won't make it for another term and then we'll have Sarah Palin vs. Hillary Clinton in 2012. Now THAT'S a race I'd be interested in seeing!

[Divia]

oh, that would be interesting!

I didnt find it hateful, just more of the same. Saw it on both sides really.

[tsjmom]

On the other hand, if the worst happens and McCain wins, he probably won't make it for another term

That's what I thought was going to happen with W :(

[Divia]

I dont think Mc Cain would make it a second term. I know thats not nice to say, but it is what it is, and the man is old, a pow, and well old.

[chuck]

Scary wasn't it? What frightens me is that a lot of the Republicans are thoroughly convinced that they are right, and they will go to nearly any lengths to prove it to everyone else (I still feel that Bush II stole the last two elections). Just keep telling yourself that the real power is still with the voters, and that it does matter who you vote into Congress. At least that's what I'm trying to tell myself...

I am so thoroughly disgusted with the campaign. Nov. 4th can't get here soon enough.

Excellent post....Ms./Mrs Palin....While running for Mayor....she tried without success to have several books banned from the local library....When elected there was controversy with the Librarian leaving under pressure...She attended six colleges before finally graduating from the University of Utah....Very Odd.....Her acceptance speech reminded me of a monologue.....Can't wait to hear what the "First Dude" has to say....maybe he will discuss why he wanted Alaska to secede from the U.S..."We have met the enemy and the enemy is us" ...Pogo

[donroc]

As a wag said, I would for her to ban one of my books. Ah, the publicity....

[LoveHistory]

Have to say I'm with Divia on a few points. 1) no one would be telling Mr. Palin he should stay home with his family; 2) just more of the same from both parties--spewing the same cookie-cutter lies.

Republicans say the Democrats are against ending our dependence on foreign oil, while the Democrats say the Republicans are against it.

What's really scary isn't that the conservatives believe they're right and they'll go to any lengths to prove it. What's really scary is that both sides are like that. And both sides are playing with millions of lives.

Like her or hate her, Palin is no worse a choice for McCain than Biden is for Obama. Liberals don't like her. So what? Conservatives don't like Biden. It's only an issue if something happens to the president, and the VP takes over. Admittedly McCain's age is a factor, but it's still terribly unlikely that he would die in office.

I like Obama. I like McCain. I'm not thrilled with their VP choices, but I'm not surprised either. I think McCain's campaign is doing a fairly lousy job, but Obama's isn't a sterling example of marketing prowess either. I'll probably make up my mind after I step into the booth. But I really, truly, deeply believe we're sunk either way. Call me a pessimist (and I am one) but we can't avoid reality forever. The United States of America's day in the sun is over.

The only question left is whether we go out with a bang or quietly fade to insignificance.

But yes, a Palin/Hilary race would be interesting.

[princess garnet]

The details are murky about Palin and the then-City Librarian. It's generating a buzz in Libraryland. "Library Journal" has a few articles: http://www.libraryjournal.com/blog/1010000101.html

"Time" magazine and NYT have published articles too.

[chuck]

I can't wait for the VP debates....they should be very interesting.......

[Divia]

I agree.

And I wish we knew more about the book banning...

[chuck]

The details are murky about Palin and the then-City Librarian. It's generating a buzz in Libraryland. "Library Journal" has a few articles: http://www.libraryjournal.com/blog/1010000101.html

"Time" magazine and NYT have published articles too.

Google...."A Letter From Anne Kilkerney" ....very interesting......

[LCW]

Have to say I'm with Divia on a few points. 1) no one would be telling Mr. Palin he should stay home with his family; 2) just more of the same from both parties--spewing the same cookie-cutter lies.




This is NOT coming from the Democratic Party! That should be made clear right now. It is coming from the internet blog and chat rooms and, interestingly, it's mostly working mothers themselves sounding off...from both sides of the political isle. Checkout workingmother . com and you'll see!

What the Democrats ARE saying is that Governor Palin needs to make herself available to the public and begin to answer questions about her qualifications and the "experience" that she loves to tout. The Response from the McCain camp is to claim that the sexist media and Democrats are out to get her. The same sexist media that didn't exist when Hillary Clinton was "whining" about the real sexism that she was subjected to during her campaign. Talk about hypocrisy!

[Ash]

This is NOT coming from the Democratic Party! That should be made clear right now. It is coming from the internet blog and chat rooms and, interestingly, it's mostly working mothers themselves sounding off...from both sides of the political isle.What the Democrats ARE saying is that Governor Palin needs to make herself available to the public and begin to answer questions about her qualifications and the "experience" that she loves to tout. The Response from the McCain camp is to claim that the sexist media and Democrats are out to get her. The same sexist media that didn't exist when Hillary Clinton was "whining" about the real sexism that she was subjected to during her campaign. Talk about hypocrisy!


Hear hear! (why do I have the sound of the English Parliment in my head when I type that....)

I want to write a letter to be sent to my newspaper as well as to the people in my address book re the truth about Palin (like MoveOn's 10 things you should know about McCain). Does anyone have a link that can give me a basic run down. I could probably write it out myself but if theres already one out there it would be nice.

[Susan]

Hear hear! (why do I have the sound of the English Parliment in my head when I type that....)

I want to write a letter to be sent to my newspaper as well as to the people in my address book re the truth about Palin (like MoveOn's 10 things you should know about McCain). Does anyone have a link that can give me a basic run down. I could probably write it out myself but if theres already one out there it would be nice.

Here's a couple of things that may be helpful. The second link is the letter from Anne Kilkerney that was previously mentioned.
http://pol.moveon.org/emails/palin_announcement.html?rc=homepage
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

[boswellbaxter]

I love this quote from McCain's campaign manager:

"Why would we want to throw Sarah Palin into a cycle of piranhas called the news media that have nothing better to ask questions about than her personal life and her children?" Davis said. "So until at which point in time we feel like the news media is going to treat her with some level of respect and deference, I think it would be foolhardy to put her out into that kind of environment."The woman is running for vice president of the United States, for God's sake! If she's too delicate a flower to answer media questions (and the ones I've seen people wanting answers to are not about her children, but about her ethics, her actions as mayor and as governor, and her experience), she has no business in national politics. Why are McCain's people so terrified of having her face the sort of questions other candidates have answered?

She has at last agreed to an interview with ABC news. It'll be interesting to see how she holds up.

[LoveHistory]

I didn't say the Democratic party was spewing lies about Palin. Those were two seperate points, Lila.

Palin can handle the media, what is with political handlers with no taste for adventure? Let's take them all away and see what happens. For once the VP debate might be worth watching. Seems like we've got two people who are honest enough to have mouth trouble.

I wrote off MoveOn.org quite a while ago, though not for the reasons you'd think.

My husband thinks Sarah Palin is a Republican version of Hilary. He may be right.

I will check out that link on the library/book banning thing. Personally I think book banning is as stupid as flag burning.

Curious (and this may be its own debate)...is there such a thing in America, or in politics, as having an open mind? We all think we do, but do we really? Even many people in the middle lean one way or another.

And why is it that as soon as someone expresses a thought that seems to be on one side or the other, everyone asigns a label of conservative/liberal or Democrat/Republican to them?

Can't people have their own beliefs without being classed that way? Has it never occurred to us that there are people who are conservative without being Republicans? Or maybe someone has liberal beliefs without having even heard what the Democratic party says? If people don't pay attention to either party, how can they be accused of towing the party line? How is that possible when they don't even know what the party line is? I know this happens--I've seen it. Anyone have any insight here?

I'm not losing my idealism, I'm not sure I ever had any, but it seems to me things have gotten a tad beyond ridiculous in this country. George Washington was way ahead of his time.

[LoveHistory]

Wow! After reading letters with opposing viewpoints I'm no closer to anything! Seems people are either really pro-Sarah Palin or really anti-Sarah Palin. How can two versions be so far apart unless there's truth (and lies) in both?

[donroc]

Instablogging was made for those who lack critical thinking. Most sites, left and right, preach to their choirs and feed them rumors and half-truths they want to believe.

Let the so-called blog news (and that of all media in general) fester for a few days or even weeks before accepting any of it, left and right, as fact.

That is why revelations the Friday before voting can be so damaging even if false.

[LCW]

Wow! After reading letters with opposing viewpoints I'm no closer to anything! Seems people are either really pro-Sarah Palin or really anti-Sarah Palin. How can two versions be so far apart unless there's truth (and lies) in both?


Because her views are so extreme! She is against all birth control, against a woman's right to control her own reproductive cycle, she wants to teach Christian Creationsim in Biology class, she thinks the Iraq war is a task from God, thinks it's OK to ban books, and those are just a few of her beliefs. She is very far off from what the majority of Americans believe in.

Those that are more moderate in their thinking and those that are more "left wing", to use a label, can not in any way agree with such hard nose extreme policy views so naturally they will stronly object to her becoming a hair's breath away from being the leader of the free world. Those who agree with her are absolutely in favor of her because it's rare to see someone with scuh extreme political ideology up for the VP slot. And some women just want to see a woman on the ticket no matter what her politcal positions are. So the fact that she's a woman with such extreme political views make for one polarizing candidate!

[Telynor]

I try very hard to keep an open mind, and I try to consider every opinion before I go into that booth on the first tuesday in Nov, and pull that lever. There's a lot about all of the candidates that I don't like, a lot.

Obama: con -- he doesn't have enough experience, but that might be a plus. pro: he's smart enough to surround himself with good advisors, and he seems to actually care about people.

Biden: con -- he's got a big, big mouth. pro -- he knows where the bodies are buried, and isn't afraid to go digging for them. He's also a powerhouse in the Senate, and if Obama is going to succeed, that's where he's going to have to convince the votes to get his policies through.

McCain: con -- he's going to be another four years of Bush politics. He's also wwaaayy out of touch with the middle and working classes. lastly, he might not survive the term, given his age and health. pro -- he has military experience, but he's very pro war about continuing the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Palin: con -- she's ultra conservative, anti-choice, anti-women's rights, and she really lacks experience. Also takes everything that doesn't agree with her as a personal attack. pro -- she's a woman. The NRA and Evangelicals love her.

[LoveHistory]

Because her views are so extreme! She is against all birth control, against a woman's right to control her own reproductive cycle, she wants to teach Christian Creationsim in Biology class, she thinks the Iraq war is a task from God, thinks it's OK to ban books, and those are just a few of her beliefs. She is very far off from what the majority of Americans believe in.

Those that are more moderate in their thinking and those that are more "left wing", to use a label, can not in any way agree with such hard nose extreme policy views so naturally they will stronly object to her becoming a hair's breath away from being the leader of the free world. Those who agree with her are absolutely in favor of her because it's rare to see someone with scuh extreme political ideology up for the VP slot. And some women just want to see a woman on the ticket no matter what her politcal positions are. So the fact that she's a woman with such extreme political views make for one polarizing candidate!

How do you know that she personally feels that way about anything? Isn't it remotely possible that she was representing the views of the people she was elected to serve? All we have to go on here is other people's opinions. We don't know that Palin wanted books banned. It could have been that some of the constituency approached her and asked about it.

I'm not saying it's one way or the other. I'm just saying people should give each other the benefit of the doubt, but then that doesn't happen much when it comes to politics.

If Evolution can be taught in biology, so can Creationism. They both have about the same chance of being irrefutably proven. And if women could really control our reproductive cycles, cramps would be a thing of the past. Which reminds me...when did Pro-Life become Anti-Choice? Last time I checked Pro-Choice did not mean Pro-Abortion. So where is this coming from? It is possible to believe that abortion is wrong, but also respect the fact that other people may choose it. Granted the fringe fruitcakes (and every group has them) would say otherwise, but still. What on Earth happened to being even remotely willing to believe the best about people? Wow, I'm starting to sound like Obama here.

[chuck]

Palin is going to be interviewed this Thursday by Charles Gibson ABC....he is very fair minded and the interview will be very open to all questions.....So we will see....I really have problems with politicians that say "I need to pray about that or I need your prayers and blessing"...Please just keep your religious beliefs to yourself....My opinion.....

[LCW]

:confused: How do you know that she personally feels that way about anything? Isn't it remotely possible that she was representing the views of the people she was elected to serve?

No, this is not the first time she has run for office and the public record shows that the beliefs I stated are in fact her own personal beliefs. It's not opinon, it's fact!




If Evolution can be taught in biology, so can Creationism. They both have about the same chance of being irrefutably proven.

Please please educate yourself on Evolution before you go around saying things like that. I'm not about to get into a debate with someone who doesn't even know the subject they are debating. BTW, nothing, NOTHING is "irrefutably" proven in Science! Not the theory of gravity, cell theory, germ theory, the technotic plate theory, nothing! If evidence to contrary appears, they can ALL be proven false. But they haven't because no such evidence exists so they are fact!! Same with Evolution! Bottom line: Evolution is Science and belongs in Biology class. Creationism is a religious teaching and belongs in Sunday School!




And if women could really control our reproductive cycles, cramps would be a thing of the past.

Seriously??


Which reminds me...when did Pro-Life become Anti-Choice? Last time I checked Pro-Choice did not mean Pro-Abortion. So where is this coming from? It is possible to believe that abortion is wrong, but also respect the fact that other people may choose it.


OK, I really have no idea what you're getting at here! Pro-choice is pro-choice! No one is "pro-abortion"! Who wakes up and say's "Oh, I think I"ll go have an abortion today, then I'll get my hair done, then I'll do the grocery shopping!" Please! Abortion is an intensely personal choice for a woman and noone knows what that individual woman is going through. It's no one's business but the woman and her doctor!!

Pro choice means having a choice in everything! Even having a child if it means it will be born to an unwed teenage mother. Even if it will be born into an abusive neglectful home. Even if it is born into abject poverty and society then asumes financial responsibilty for the child! It is choice in ALL reproductive decisions and keeping the government OUT of such an intensely personal choice!

[LoveHistory]

I can completely agree with keeping government out of personal decisions, but no one answered my question about saying "Anti-Choice" instead of "Pro-Life."

And we obviously disagree on the definition of fact. Lack of evidence to the contrary is not enough for me. Facts should be concrete, not subject to changes in scientific knowledge. I know the theory of evolution, and I don't have a problem with it. But I do have a problem with people (not anyone on this forum) calling it a proven fact.

Even if she does have radical beliefs, that's not a guarantee that she would govern according to them. If you are elected to serve the people you have two choices 1) represent them by giving them what they want (which, by the way, includes dropping something you think is a good idea if the voters don't want it); or 2) represent them by giving them what you think is best for them. Neither method is perfect. And no matter which you choose, people are going to complain.

But why is Palin guilty until proven innocent? Why not give her the benefit of the doubt? If no one addresses any of my other questions, will someone please give me a logical answer to these ones?

[princess garnet]

Here's a fact check about Sarah Palin courtesy of "Newsweek" magazine:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/158265/output/print
I found about this article from a library listserv that I subscribe.

[Telynor]

I can completely agree with keeping government out of personal decisions, but no one answered my question about saying "Anti-Choice" instead of "Pro-Life."

Because people tend to get twitchy when you say 'Anti'- something. It sounds much more correct and benevolent when you say 'Pro'- something,(yes, I am being very sarcastic here) and the religious right has a very loud and reactionary views on women's rights. They tend to expound loudly on the topic, but I also notice that the moment a child is born, they loose interest in helping that child and their family having any sort of help in getting health care, education, or job that gives an actual living wage. To me, that's hypocrisy at its worst and most degrading.

And we obviously disagree on the definition of fact. Lack of evidence to the contrary is not enough for me. Facts should be concrete, not subject to changes in scientific knowledge. I know the theory of evolution, and I don't have a problem with it. But I do have a problem with people (not anyone on this forum) calling it a proven fact.

Given science, mathematics, and chemistry, the theory of evolution answers quite a few questions about how did we get here. Break it down, and it's actually quite beautiful, and given the mass of evidence out there, it's believable. Talk to most people who have had some scientific education and who can deal with mathematics and deductive reasoning, and most of them buy the theory of evolution. Most of all, it makes sense. Science is constantly evolving and discovering new things, everything changes.

But why is Palin guilty until proven innocent? Why not give her the benefit of the doubt? If no one addresses any of my other questions, will someone please give me a logical answer to these ones?

Because she's not interested in anyone else's agenda other than her own, and she's very strident about it, and unwilling to compromise. McCain is pandering to the reactionary hard-liners and trying to prove he's really listening by putting a woman on the ticket. I've looked at what she has done as a mayor and governor and frankly, she makes my skin crawl. I don't like her at a gut level and that's my bottom line when choosing. I'm not crazy about McCain either, he's pretty much a mouthpiece for the Republican party and considering the state of the nation right now, he's not making any proposed policy that's going to pull this country out of the recession/depression that it is in. No, I'm not crazy about Obama either, but right now, I know that the Republican ticket is determined to keep that wretched war in Iraq going, and wants to continue supporting big business and doesn't much care for average citizen who makes up the majority of this country. Any road, in about 55 days, there's going to be an election.

We could debate this endlessly. Each side has their thoughts in it, and in the end, it's going to come down to how people vote. If you vote -- and I urge everyone who is eligible to do so.

[Volgadon]

I read that Deb Frost letter, shock, horrors.

Sarah Palin is the US’s answer to Margaret Thatcher! Anyone who thinks she cannot handle the job or deal briskly and efficiently with ANY issue, including foreign governments … well, they haven’t met our Sarah.

[chuck]

What is very scary is this....Seems like this election has turned into a popularity contest...."Who is more likeable?"....Bush won on likeability(he talks like us)(I could sit down and have a beer with him)...hmmmmmn....How did that work out?.....and lastly.....the American Public and their voting habits really bothers me....The country is slowly sinking like the Titantic and who gets the lifeboats?.....I would love to see Palin and Clinton in a open forum discussing the issues....

[LCW]

I would love to see Palin and Clinton in a open forum discussing the issues....


The problem with that is Hillary Clinton is not running for President or Vice President now. Palin needs to hash it out with Joe Biden, who is running for VP. Obama and McCain need to hash it out together! I think it's a sad indictment of the Republican party when their VP pick is more inspiring than the McCain, their Presidential nominee and the one who actually matters right now.

All this hoopla over Palin is just a distraction from the issues...which the Republicans welcome because on all the issues they fail miserably with most of the American people! I hope with tonight's interview with Palin (it's about freakin' time!!) we can begin to get to know her and the public can make decisions based on facts and not hype and rumor! Hopefully she will continue to give interviews like the other three and not hide from the press anymore.

[LCW]

And we obviously disagree on the definition of fact. Lack of evidence to the contrary is not enough for me. Facts should be concrete, not subject to changes in scientific knowledge. I know the theory of evolution, and I don't have a problem with it. But I do have a problem with people (not anyone on this forum) calling it a proven fact.



So you don't have a problem with Evolution but you don't believe it? I'm confused. And I'm sorry that the Scientific Method isn't sound enough for you. It was good enough to bring us all the Scientific and technological advancements we enjoy today so there must be something redeeming about it!

And I wasn't saying there is no evidence for Evolution. To say that there is a plethora of such information would be a huge understatement!! What I was trying to explain is that the Scientific process is set up so that knowledge can continualy be improved. The strength of Science is that the hypotheses are set up so that if or when better evidence or evidence to the contrary becomes available we can then improve or adjust our knowledge accordingly. There's no "This is what I think so this is how it is and nothing can convince me otherwise" in Science. Scientific conclusions ARE in fact based on evidence and the are rejected or modified based on contrary or additional information!

[chuck]

Lila....Excellent remarks.....My hope is that Obama and Hillary Clinton start stumping together and Biden and Bill Clinton will do the same....Hillary could neutralize Palin and all the ridiculous media hype about her would go away....SP's speeches are so general, lack of real substance and so scripted and redundant....I have to admit she is really firing up the right and especially among women voters....I'm afraid that they are going to vote for her because she is a women/Hillary backlash and don't care about her politics.....In hindsight Obama should have invited Hillary to run with him....And now we have angry voters who want to see change ; good or bad.....the plus; is that Palin makes McClain look even more stiff, inept and a bumbler....he seems to be taking her lead and he want be our President?....Scary and nervous times ahead......And then we have men and some pundits calling Palin a "Real Babe"....."We have met the enemy and the enemy is US"....Pogo......This rant is ONLY my opinion....

[chuck]

Re: the VP Debate.....Well Palin did not fall on her face....But I don't want a Joe Six Pack/Hockey Mom in the Oval Office....Her style reminds me of Bush..... His/her anti intellectual, folksy approach to circling around the issues and ducking questions....The debate forum was disappointing, the Moderator did not challenge Biden/Palin to stay on topic or answer the question and her followups were so weak......Winking to the audience what was that?

[Margaret]

She is like an exaggerated version of George Bush. Scary.

[LCW]

I agree! I'm very scared. Obama is up in the polls but that doesn't mean anything. Afterall, we all know the person who wins elections in this country isn't the one who always becomes President!

It just floors me that here in this country someone who comes from nothing and strives against all odds to get an education and pursue the American dream is called an elitist. Presonally, i'd like to have an intellectual as President. I want a President who can think and use critical thinking skills. And I certainly want a President who's IQ is higher than normal!! When did having a college education or graduate degree become a bad thing? Do Conservatives want an entire country full of ignorant uneducated Joe's who drink six packs? Perhaps so because that seems to be their target audience the past decade. It certainly would explain their abysmal record on education policy!!

[Telynor]

I want the best and brightest of our people leading this country, not necessarily the most charismatic or popular. I've hated this entire 'intellectuals are elistist snobs' attitude for years; there ought not to be any reasons to dumb yourself down in order to be accepted by the masses. I refuse to play that game, if someone doesn't like the fact that I can think and act to the best of my ability, well, I don't need to be around them either.

Considering that Our Fearless Leader and his pals rolled through Ivy League colleges because they were 'legacies' and daddy had deep pockets, with just C averages, it just makes me sick.

Yes, I know that Truman was a failure as a businessman, and really succeeded only when he got into politics -- but he was also a man who could use his brains too.

[Andromeda_Organa]

No one would say that if she were a man. Just throwin it out there.

I know it's a little late, but that's VERY VERY true! I didn't like either candidate