'The Best of Anya'

[Leyland]

or, Anya's Greatest Hits. I believe most members here will agree with me that Katherine is at the top of the list and should not be missed in this lifetime!

My 'Best of Anya' follows with Green Darkness, The Turquoise, Avalon, Devil Water, and My Theodosia. I've read all her novels and have nearly all of them in my keeper library, except for Dragonwyck. That one just doesn't do it for me and I probably won't ever read it.

Like so many others here, Seton's Katherine got me seriously into HF. I read it in high school and have never looked back. Of course, there was less HF to choose from back in the 70's, if you don't count romance HF. HF has come a long way since then as we all can demonstrate with our massive TBR piles these days.

I'm sure each one of her books deserves its own thread and look forward to development of each one as we build this new forum.

So, who else has their own 'Best of' list?

Also, I posted this link on the old forum for anyone interested in Anya Seton's personal history:

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/biography/mackethan.htm

[EC2]

Trust someone to be awkward.:rolleyes: Katherine for me actually comes in at number 3 behind Avalon and Green Darkness! Agree with you though that Anya Seton is a wonderful author. I've not read all of her works but have yet to find one that's disappointed. I can add Foxfire and The Turquoise to my list of have reads. Winthrop Woman, Devil Water and My Theodosia are still on the mental TBR.

[Leyland]

Sigh. You're forgiven, EC ;).

[Misfit]

I'm picking Katherine, The Winthrop Woman, Avalon and Devil Water at the top. I really enjoyed Foxfire, but it might not appeal to all. It's been so long since Dragonwyck I can't say yea or nay.

[ellenjane]

So far I've enjoyed Katherine and The Winthrop Woman, but was less keen on The Hearth and the Eagle or My Theodosia. Dragonwyck is somewhere in the middle, just for its Gothic-ness.

I'm glad to see that Devil Water is fairly well-liked. I picked that up for 33 cents at the Friends of the Library sale the other day!

[Spitfire]

I am still fairly new to the Historical Fiction gendre (at least compared with most of you!) The only book of Anya Setton's I have read so far is Kathryn. Which I loved by the way. You couldn't help falling in love with the characters, feeling what they are feeling. I was thinking of picking up Dragonwyk next (purely for the cool sounding name) which book would you all recommend though, and why?

[Leyland]

Green Darkness, Devil Water and Avalon would be good choices to follow Katherine.

Green Darkness contains several characters linked by reincarnation in two storylines set in the 1960’s and during the reign of the Tudors monarchs, Edward VI and Mary I. The Tudor storyline involves a young woman who recklessly and persistently falls in love with the wrong man as time, fortunes and events pass throughout the religious persecutions of Catholics and then Protestants. Resolutions to the past tragic events come about in the 1960’s.

Devil Water is primarily centered on the life and involvement of the Earl of Derwentwater and his daughter Jenny before and during the Jacobite rebellion of 1715. The settings are Northumberland, London, and the southern colonies of America. The multiple characters in these diverse locations are what I love most about the book. And the love story between Jenny and Rob is very nicely told.

Avalon is an adventurous 10th century tale of a young Cornish woman named Merewyn who proudly believes she is descended from King Arthur and gets caught up in a Viking raid. She learns a great deal more about her parentage afterwards, and begins a long journey to unknown lands. A love story between Merewyn and a knight named Rumon sets other events into motion.

I love the diversity of Seton’s stories and her wonderful characterization. The Winthrop Woman and The Turquoise are also well worth reading after the ones mentioned in the post.

[Misfit]

"I love the diversity of Seton’s stories and her wonderful characterization."

Well said, I think that's one of the most refreshing things about her books. You're not always in the same century/country - it's always something different. Hearth and Eagle is definitely at the bottom along with Mistletoe and the Sword (first printed as YA in the 50'). Library books I'd call those two.

[Juniper]

I'm not saying this just to be difficult, but I actually really liked Dragonwyck. It was the first Anya Seton book that I ever read, and it spurred me to read others. I admit that Katherine was a really good book though, but I'm not sure that I would say it was my favourite. Perhaps Avalon?

[diamondlil]

I quite liked Dragonwyck as well. I think I have a review somewhere.

[LCW]

Katherine got me back into HF. And I loved Avalon so much. I didn't care for The Winthrop Woman much. I have 3-4 other novels of hers to read here too.

[Eyza]

1lila1:Have you ever read Devil Water ?* I liked that a lot, too.* I've read most of* her books, and I liked that, as well as Katherine and Avalon the best of all her work.Anne G

[LCW]

Devil Water is the next Seton book I plan to read. I'm looking forward to it!

[Spitfire]

Green Darkness, Devil Water and Avalon would be good choices to follow Katherine.

Green Darkness contains several characters linked by reincarnation in two storylines set in the 1960’s and during the reign of the Tudors monarchs, Edward VI and Mary I. The Tudor storyline involves a young woman who recklessly and persistently falls in love with the wrong man as time, fortunes and events pass throughout the religious persecutions of Catholics and then Protestants. Resolutions to the past tragic events come about in the 1960’s.

Devil Water is primarily centered on the life and involvement of the Earl of Derwentwater and his daughter Jenny before and during the Jacobite rebellion of 1715. The settings are Northumberland, London, and the southern colonies of America. The multiple characters in these diverse locations are what I love most about the book. And the love story between Jenny and Rob is very nicely told.

Avalon is an adventurous 10th century tale of a young Cornish woman named Merewyn who proudly believes she is descended from King Arthur and gets caught up in a Viking raid. She learns a great deal more about her parentage afterwards, and begins a long journey to unknown lands. A love story between Merewyn and a knight named Rumon sets other events into motion.

I love the diversity of Seton’s stories and her wonderful characterization. The Winthrop Woman and The Turquoise are also well worth reading after the ones mentioned in the post.
Thanks Leland, I appreciate you giving a synopsis of the books you recommend. I will have to definitely bump AS up the list in my TBR pile! The truth is I usually only have a bout 1hr a day that I can devote to reading. There was a thread about that on the old site wasn't there? Should start it again here!

[Kasthu]

My top Anya Seton books are: Katherine, Green Darkness, and Dragonwyck. There was something so deliciously creepy about the last book that I just couldn't put down. Picked up Katherine because of the name, then loved it because of the story (believe it or not, in her new biography of Katherine Swynford, Alison Weir baically trashes the novel in an appendix at the end!). Green Darkness I read on a seven-hour cross-Pennsylvania train ride. I couldn't quite get into The Winthrop Woman, however.

[Misfit]

Just stumbled across this (http://www.amazon.com/Turquoise-Anya-Seton/dp/1556528035/ref=tag_cdt_np_edpp_ttl) on Amazon, another reprint next year. This was not one of my favorites, I liked the first half in New Mexico better than the second half in New York.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411SyocRkWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Another headless woman photo.

[Misfit]

(believe it or not, in her new biography of Katherine Swynford, Alison Weir baically trashes the novel in an appendix at the end!).

Grrrr. I'm interested in reading Weir's bio on Katherine but only if the library picks it up.

[tsjmom]

Well, I'm probably not qualified to really answer this question seeing as I've only read one of her books so far, but I don't see how any of them could come close to 'Katherine'. This is one of the best, most memorable, all encompassing novels ever. Even though it's long it's actually a very fast read, no slow spots in this one. For me 'Katherine' is the pinnacle of HF.

[AuntiePam]

Another headless woman photo.

Nice to know I'm not the only one who's noticed this. It's never done with men. Although actually, I don't often see a man on a cover. When I do, it's from a distance and usually just a shadowy figure.

My favorite Seton is also Katherine. I loved Green Darkness but was disappointed when I tried to re-read it a few years back. I was put off by the all the description of clothes, hair, food, drinks, etc. It didn't quite date the book, but for some stupid reason, I didn't like it. It felt Martha Stewart-y.

[Misfit]

It didn't quite date the book, but for some stupid reason, I didn't like it. It felt Martha Stewart-y.

Definitely don't pick up her Smoldering Fires (or was it embers?) book. Another regression one - the first part set in the 1970's in a high school. Very very dated. Couldn't finish it and that's the only one of Seton's I've not been able to get through.

[Debra]

I agree with pretty much all of you regarding her books. I loved Kathrine and was thrilled to find Green Darkness at a library sale a couple years ago. My Theodosia haunted me in high school-not used to that kind of ending!

[Margaret]

Katherine is a wonderful novel. Moseyer just reviewed it for www.HistoricalNovels.info (http://www.HistoricalNovels.info/Katherine.html). She's read it more recently than I have, and I didn't envy her the task of summing up what makes it so wonderful in 330 words or less, but I think the review does a great job of introducing the novel to readers. Katherine Swynford lived at an amazing time in English history, and Katherine is both an impressive reflection of that time in history and a very personal story of a woman's life.

[Chatterbox]

For me, it's Katherine, My Theodosia, the Winthrop Woman and Devil Water, in that order. Followed by one that has not been mentioned yet, the Hearth and the Eagle.

Katherine was the first I read, and I loved the story, the time frame, etc. (And I later found out that I'm probably descended from a Beaufort!) My Theodosia, because it shed light on a time in US history that I knew nothing about, with great characters. The Winthrop Woman is a great book about some of America's earliest settlers, and the perennial tension between religious idealism and diversity. Devil Water remains a favorite because I'm fascinated with the Jacobite rebellions and the scattering of Scottish/Irish populations that follow. The Hearth and the Eagle came about in response to Seton's own genealogical quest, which I find intriguing. (I'm planning to write something about how/why Americans become so obsessed with genealogy). It's a great story about an inn in Marblehead, Massachussets, with a generational element. But the bulk of it is solidly set in the lead-up to the Civil War.

Avalon, I read early, but didn't love as much. Dragonwyck, I enjoyed a lot as teenager, but it hasn't lasted as well for me. It feels more like a better-written Gothic novel, a la Victoria Holt, than Seton at her best. Though I learned a lot about the Dutch "patroons" of the Hudson River.

Interesting; just looking at this list makes me realize that while most people think of Seton primarily because of Katherine -- a book about England -- while so much of her historical fiction is really about American, from Colonial days to the 19th/20th century. Even in Devil Water, the heroine ends up in the colonies.

[LCW]

Last night I finally finished Devil Water. I loved it!! But I'm even more pissed than ever at Phillipa Gregory's describing the relationship between Jenny and Charles as incestuous. I didn't get that feel at all, even in the prison scenes where she pretends to be his lover in order to see him. Yes, she was the love of his life but I clearly saw it as a father/daughter love.

That woman must have one perverted mind to come up with such baloney!

BTW, how bad is it that I found myself comparing time periods to Jaime and Claire? I found myself thinking, "by this time Jamie and Claire weren't even in the New World yet", etc. Ugh, it's a sickness, I tell you, a sickness! :D

[Misfit]

Last night I finally finished Devil Water. I loved it!! But I'm even more pissed than ever at Phillipa Gregory's describing the relationship between Jenny and Charles as incestuous. I didn't get that feel at all, even in the prison scenes where she pretends to be his lover in order to see him. Yes, she was the love of his life but I clearly saw it as a father/daughter love.


OK, it's not me then. PG totally hacked me off when she did that forward and insinuated that the relationship was incestuous. Grrrrr.... :mad::mad:

[ellenjane]

I just finished Devil Water, and I liked about 80% of it. The final pregnancy storyline did not sit well with me, though. (Trying to be circumspect for those who haven't read it.)

I don't have the new version of the book, so I don't know exactly what PG said about the Jenny-Charles relationship. I thought there were some shades of an inappropriate father-daughter relationship when Jenny was in France with Charles' family, but I wouldn't classify the entire relationship as incestuous. After reading some of PG's early novels, I think that topic is just unusually present in her mind!

[love_uk]

As I have had to buy multiple copies of Katherine & Green Darkness over the years (because I've worn them out), I would have to say they are my favorites.

Katherine has led me to romp my way through multiple Plantagenet castle ruins over the years & I have a sad Green Darkness tale to tell:

In 1974, enthralled by AS's descriptions & a chapter with photos in Great Houses of Great Britain, I attempted to visit Ightham Mote by public transportation. I made it as far as Ivy Hatch but couldn't find a taxi to take me the rest of the way. Had to give up & return to London. Alas, I was too young & scared to drive in the UK in those days. I read something last year about changes they have made there in recent years & no longer have the urge to see it. Anyone been there????

Other favorites are The Winthrop Woman, Devil Water & Avalon.

[Margaret]

How frustrating! I've had similar experiences - it can be especially difficult cobbling together transportation in places where one doesn't speak the language very well. I did, however, succeed in getting to a research site in Britain where they have recreated some houses similar to those in which Celtic people lived in pre-Roman times. Alas, I have never been to Ightham Mote.

[Michy]

This past year I read (in some cases re-read) every one of Anya Seton's books. Here's how they stack up for me:

Top tier: The Turquoise, Dragonwyck and Devil Water
Second tier: Katherine and The Winthrop Woman
Middle tier: Avalon, The Mistletoe and the Sword, My Theodosia, Foxfire
Bottom tier: The Hearth and Eagle, Green Darkness
Very bottom: Smouldering Fires (this was Seton's last work and it was very poorly done)

As for those of you who commented on Philippa Gregory's forwards/afterwards -- I totally agree. It seemed to me that she barely had anything good to say about Seton's work, and in some cases she seemed to be saying, "if I had written this book I would have done a better job." I wondered why Chicago Review Press even included her comments.

[Misfit]

Very bottom: Smouldering Fires (this was Seton's last work and it was very poorly done)

I couldn't even finish this it was so dated. What was it a teacher or something going off alone with one of his students?

[Michy]

Yeah, it was another time regression "gimmick" like she used in Green Darkness. But that's not what bothered me, I actually think it could have been a good story idea. And the dated-ness didn't turn me off, either. It was just so poorly written -- very amateurish and un-Anya Seton-like. It was her last book, so I'm wondering if she had just lost heart, or something.

[EC2]

I haven't read them all by any means, but of those I have read:

top tier - Green Darkness and Avalon.

Middle tier Katherine, The Turquoise, Foxfire.

I haven't experienced any bottom tier ones so far.

[annis]

Neither "Mistletoe and the Sword" or "Smouldering Fires" grabbed me, and I think it's because both were written for the YA market. The stories are quite slight in consequence and have a touch of that patronising tone that authors sometimes can't resist when writing for a younger audience.

[Margaret]

Neither "Mistletoe and the Sword" or "Smouldering Fires" grabbed me, and I think it's because both were written for the YA market. The stories are quite slight in consequence and have a touch of that patronising tone that authors sometimes can't resist when writing for a younger audience.

Ditto with Avalon, which was so boring I couldn't finish it. It astonishes me that a writer who could produce marvels like Katherine and The Winthrop Woman - some of the best historical fiction ever written - could descend to such depths.

[Elizabeth]

For me, it's Katherine, My Theodosia, the Winthrop Woman and Devil Water, in that order. Followed by one that has not been mentioned yet, the Hearth and the Eagle.

I'm so glad to see someone else mention THE HEARTH & EAGLE. It's one of my favorite Setons. It also employs the dual-time technique, with one central character (Hesper) being a descendant of another (Phebe). The New England Marblehead and seafaring atmosphere never ceases to enthrall me. There's a kind of sideways connection to THE WINTHROP WOMAN as Governor John Winthrop plays a part.

I also love KATHERINE, GREEN DARKNESS and DEVIL WATER. I hadn't even heard of SMOULDERING FIRES. Will have to try to find a copy, just for curiosity's sake.

[Misfit]

Neither "Mistletoe and the Sword" or "Smouldering Fires" grabbed me, and I think it's because both were written for the YA market. The stories are quite slight in consequence and have a touch of that patronising tone that authors sometimes can't resist when writing for a younger audience.

It will be interesting when the new release of Mistletoe comes out this year, will they mention that it was originally YA? It was a so-so read for me, but Roman Britain doesn't always thrill me either.

I thought Hearth and Eagle was well done, but my main problem was that I didn't find myself caring for the main characters very much. I can live with that in say a Forever Amber kind of book but it didn't work well here. Still good.

BTW, everyone knows that Historical Tapestry is planning to feature Anya Seton? I believe it starts on June 1. Could be wrong though.

[Michy]

I actually like The Mistletoe and the Sword. Certainly not Seton's finest, but interesting and well-written. For the Hearth and Eagle, I can't really put my finger on why I didn't like it much; it was just blah and lacked spark.

Elizabeth -- For Smouldering Fires, I really wouldn't waste your time or money (but that's just my opinion :)). If I hadn't already disposed of my copy I would send it to you!

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth -- For Smouldering Fires, I really wouldn't waste your time or money (but that's just my opinion :)). If I hadn't already disposed of my copy I would send it to you!

I've read everything else of hers and thought I should go for the perfect score, but then I came across this cover:

Smouldering Fires (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/anya-seton/smouldering-fires.htm)

Ack. I think I'm scarred for life. I will now take your sage advice and pass on this one. :)

[Misfit]

I've read everything else of hers and thought I should go for the perfect score, but then I came across this cover:

Smouldering Fires (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/anya-seton/smouldering-fires.htm)

Ack. I think I'm scarred for life. I will now take your sage advice and pass on this one. :)

Oh. My. God.

http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n13/n68475.jpg

[Michy]

ha ha The copy I had had a totally different cover -- very sedate and 19th century-ish (or was that 18th century?).

Anyway, this one is much more indicative of the quality of the book (or lack thereof). I'm glad you saw this so you didn't waste your time or money on it! It pains me to say that about an Anya Seton, but it is just true.

[Kate Quinn]

Good lord. That cover would put anybody off Anya Seton for life.

Thanks for all the comments on A.S's other books. I admit I've only read "Katherine," which I adore, and neglected the others because American history never interested me much. But seeing how many of them get top recommendations here, I'll take another look.

[enelya]

Hi guys, I was wondering why you didn't like the Mistetoe and the sword book. Was it just the period it was set in that didn't appeal to you or was it something else?

[annis]

I wouldn't say I didn't like it, but that I was rather disappointed that it was such a slight story. I didn't realise at the time (though it made sense when I discovered later) that it was actually written for the YA market.

[Michy]

I actually really enjoyed The Mistletoe and the Sword. I particularly like that period. I agree that it is not Seton's best work -- it is a short book, not nearly of the scope of her others -- but I found it interesting and well-written. For me, it was a solid 5 stars.

[annis]

I'm particularly fascinated by Roman Britain (love Rosemary Sutcliff's novels set in this period), and i guess I was hoping for something with the breadth of Avalon, which is set in the later post-Roman period, or Pauline Gedge's wonderful Eagle and the Raven. (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/g/pauline-gedge/eagle-and-raven.htm)

[Madeleine]

Oh. My. God.

http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n13/n68475.jpg


A definite contender for the Cheesy Covers poll, methinks!:eek::D

[Michy]

Now, Smouldering Fires, on the other hand, was Seton's worst work IMO! It was so poorly written I don't know why she even bothered. When I reviewed it I gave it 3 stars, but that was being too kind. I really deserved 1 or 2. :eek:

[Misfit]

Found an old MMPB edition of Katherine at the USB and scanned the front and back images. Is she just a pouty face or what?

[SCW]

I've only read two of her novels. Those being Green Darkness and Dragonwyck. I did buy Katherine, but it was a present for someone else. Australian book stores don't seem to sell much Anya Seton.
Am interested to know what people would recommend

[Misfit]

IMHO I think Katherine, The Winthrop Women and Devil Water are the best.

[LoobyG]

Katherine is a must, must read - one of the books I've loved in HF. I also enjoyed My Theodosia but not as much. I've got quite a few of Seton's on Mt.TBR :)

[Michy]

Last year I went on a "mission," and read every one of Seton's books. Some were re-reads, some were first-timers. And all but two were keepers! :) I'm really glad Chicago Review Press re-released her works, made them easy to get and nice covers.

[BrianPK]

I've read most of her books and enjoyed them all but I was really affected by "Avalon" which I've read about 3 times.I thought it outstanding, but then again I've always been a sucker for a good bittersweet romance.:)

[Misfit]

I've read most of her books and enjoyed them all but I was really affected by "Avalon" which I've read about 3 times.I thought it outstanding, but then again I've always been a sucker for a good bittersweet romance.:)

Hi Brian and welcome aboard BTW. I loved Avalon as well, although the ending is a bit of a sad one.

[BrianPK]

Hi Brian and welcome aboard BTW. I loved Avalon as well, although the ending is a bit of a sad one.

Thanks Misfit:)...but that's why I found it so affecting. Why couldn't they just get together at the end?... as I said,that's me ...an unrepentant romantic.:D

[Michy]

I was satisfied with the ending of Avalon; but then, I prefer books with bittersweet endings. It's not that I didn't want Rumon and Merewyn to be together -- I really did. But books that leave an ache in my heart are stronger and more memorable than those that tie up the ends all nice and neat, with everyone riding off into the sunset to live happily ever after. But that's just me. :)

[EC2]

I've read most of her books and enjoyed them all but I was really affected by "Avalon" which I've read about 3 times.I thought it outstanding, but then again I've always been a sucker for a good bittersweet romance.:)

Welcome to the boards Brian. I think Avalon is my favourite Anya Seton. I loved the unfamiliar settings and the way she brought the harsh life in the Viking settlements to life.

[BrianPK]

Thanks EC2:) While a good book is a friend in itself, It's always nice to talk to others who have also derived pleasure and entertainment from the same source.
As regards "Avalon" , I thought that Anya Seton was inspired the way she changed the story and galvanised our interest by adding anxiety and foreboding just as we thought the relationship between Rumon and Merewyn was about to end in a happy reconciliation. Even though the Viking raid delayed that reconciliation,we still believed and hoped that the outcome would end favourably.But then the storm struck off the coast of Ireland and who would have thought that the direction of their lives would change so dramatically as Rumon's pursuing ship was swept helplessly westward and...
What a marvellous story teller Anya Seton was.

[SCW]

I've just ordered Avalon by Anya Seton for my birthday. But when I went back to check it said it was authored by Anya Seton and Philippa Gregory. Is Philippa Gregory re-writing these books?

[MLE]

Nah, Philippa Gregory just wrote forewords for them, and rather condescending ones at that. But putting her name on them means that they show up in more reader's searches, and for that I thank her. She's pretty much single-handedly brought Anya Seton's works back from the Out-of-Print graveyard of forgotten books.

[Misfit]

Nah, Philippa Gregory just wrote forewords for them, and rather condescending ones at that. But putting her name on them means that they show up in more reader's searches, and for that I thank her. She's pretty much single-handedly brought Anya Seton's works back from the Out-of-Print graveyard of forgotten books.

Oh those forwards drove me nuts, especially the one for Avalon IIRC. She was downright insulting and I'm glad they dropped her for My Theodosia. But her *NAME* did help sell so I guess we should be grateful for that.

One thing to point out and for other authors to remember - even someone like Seton has an off *meh* book on occasion - it happens to the best of us.

[BrianPK]

Oh those forwards drove me nuts, especially the one for Avalon IIRC. She was downright insulting

What did she say that you found insulting?

[Misfit]

What did she say that you found insulting?

Brian, it has been a few years, but in general I recall a snootiness towards her writing and stories in general. Most specifically, I recall an inference towards a more *inappropriate* relationship between father and daughter in Devil Water. I don't recall picking up on that, nor to the best of my memory have I seen others mention it either. PG, on the other hand focuses on incest a bit in her novels.

[BrianPK]

Well,Misfit, I read Devil Water years ago and how anyone could construe an unnatural relationship between the father and daughter in that marvellous story is just beyond me.But nothing really surprises me about people and their "imaginings" any more.
Regarding Anya Seton's writing style and stories,well of course they differ from what a more modern author would compose and write. Most of Seton's novels are from the 50s and 60s. In 50 years time most current authors will be regarded as old hat and out of fashion. Only a few will still be remembered but I'm pretty sure that there will always be people who will discover the charm, the(yes) innocence and the sheer delightful entertainment to be garnered from Anya Seton's wonderful stories. :)

[Misfit]

Well,Misfit, I read Devil Water years ago and how anyone could construe an unnatural relationship between the father and daughter in that marvellous story is just beyond me.But nothing really surprises me about people and their "imaginings" any more.
Regarding Anya Seton's writing style and stories,well of course they differ from what a more modern author would compose and write. Most of Seton's novels are from the 50s and 60s. In 50 years time most current authors will be regarded as old hat and out of fashion. Only a few will still be remembered but I'm pretty sure that there will always be people who will discover the charm, the(yes) innocence and the sheer delightful entertainment to be garnered from Anya Seton's wonderful stories. :)

You see why I was scratching my head at her forewards? I know Seton can take some getting used to (as any author *that old*), but she's well worth it IMHO. Honestly, I love the older stuff, and that includes the 70's and 80's. There are plenty of treasures waiting to be discovered and/or rediscovered.

[SCW]

Maybe I'll re-enact the scene from Dead Poet's Society before I read Philippa Gregory's introduction then. ha ha
But its good that she's helped Anya Seton's work be re-published. I've ordered Avalon and Devil Water for my birthday

[Michy]

Well,Misfit, I read Devil Water years ago and how anyone could construe an unnatural relationship between the father and daughter in that marvellous story is just beyond me.But nothing really surprises me about people and their "imaginings" any more.


I didn't like PG's intros, either; I felt that in every one, she implied she could have written the book better, herself. However, in her intro to Devil Water I don't think she was far off in suggesting something a bit unnatural in the relationship between Jenny and her father. I distinctly remember a scene where her father kissed her on the mouth when she was 16 years old? 18? That struck me as a bit unnatural. Also, if you remember, there was a priest that Jenny and her father were close to (it's been over a year since I read it so his name eludes me), who was instrumental in getting her to immigrate to America because he felt like it would be good to separate her from her father. The relationship never became incestuous, but Seton clearly implied that it was heading in that direction -- remember, Jenny's father was only about 16 years older than her, he wasn't around her when she was growing up, and he was a womanizer. So when Jenny re-entered his life as a beautiful young woman who was totally devoted to him, his paternal instincts -- which were weak and sporadic at best -- sometimes were confused with and overtaken by his stronger, more randy instincts.

So -- I have to go out on a limb here and say that I agree with PG's viewpoint on this one. But it was still one of my favorite Seton books, anyway.

[BrianPK]

It's quite a few years since I last read it and I actually forget those incidents.Knowing me,however,I would have been immediately turned off the book if I detected anything unsuitable about the relationship. I would have been very uncomfortable with the story if I sensed anything "dodgy" between father and daughter and instead I thoroughly enjoyed the story. I can say though, that in various books and movies I've read and viewed over the years, a kiss on the lips( not a snogging session) between family members or very close friends had been common enough in previous eras and only seemed to die out in Victorian times where bodily contact was kept to a minimum and open displays of affection were frowned on. A case in point is the wonderful movie Barry Lyndon where Ryan O'Neal's character is holding his mortally wounded older friend during an 18th century battle and his friend asks him to kiss him before he dies. He kisses him on the lips and weeps as he dies and we are given to understand that this was normal affection during those times between close friends.

[annis]

Posted by BrianPK
A case in point is the wonderful movie Barry Lyndon where Ryan O'Neal's character is holding his mortally wounded older friend during an 18th century battle and his friend asks him to kiss him before he dies. He kisses him on the lips and weeps as he dies and we given to understand that this was normal affection during those times between close friends.

Hence Lord Nelson's accurately recorded request when dying, "Kiss me, Hardy", which has occasioned some puzzlement and misunderstanding amongst those of later times.

[Michy]

Perhaps that's why PG stated in her foreward that "modern readers" would find a troubling element in Jenny's relationship with her father; she's acknowledging, at least to some degree, that the discomfort may be due in part to different social customs in our modern times. However, she does state right out that there is an incestuous tone to their relationship, and she goes on to cite several examples, all of which are valid and well-stated. She concludes that the reader's discomfort comes from the fact that this aspect of Jenny's relationship with her father is only partially developed and never fully explained or resolved.

But different social norms notwithstanding, I still agree with her assessment because of the reaction of the priest who was close to Jenny and her father (his name is Father Brown). I actually pulled my copy off the shelf and took another look at the passage I referred to in my earlier post. When Jenny's father is upset about her immigration to America and begging her not to go, Father Brown tells him, "It is better for everyone, and I have seen that for you both there's danger in your feelings for the girl." To me, this shows that it's not just a modern reader's interpretation of social behavior that is no longer an acceptable norm, but this is Seton herself implying that there was something a little more than "fatherly affection" in Charles' feelings for his daughter.

At any rate, I don't feel that these particular comments of PG's were slanderous or in any way demeaning of Seton's work; she was validly pointing out a significant aspect of the plot of Devil Water that might cause trouble for some readers. I happen to agree with her assessment, although I realize everyone doesn't.

[BrianPK]

Perhaps that's why PG stated in her foreward that "modern readers" would find a troubling element in Jenny's relationship with her father; she's acknowledging, at least to some degree, that the discomfort may be due in part to different social customs in our modern times. However, she does state right out that there is an incestuous tone to their relationship, and she goes on to cite several examples, all of which are valid and well-stated. She concludes that the reader's discomfort comes from the fact that this aspect of Jenny's relationship with her father is only partially developed and never fully explained or resolved.

But different social norms notwithstanding, I still agree with her assessment because of the reaction of the priest who was close to Jenny and her father (his name is Father Brown). I actually pulled my copy off the shelf and took another look at the passage I referred to in my earlier post. When Jenny's father is upset about her immigration to America and begging her not to go, Father Brown tells him, "It is better for everyone, and I have seen that for you both there's danger in your feelings for the girl." To me, this shows that it's not just a modern reader's interpretation of social behavior that is no longer an acceptable norm, but this is Seton herself implying that there was something a little more than "fatherly affection" in Charles' feelings for his daughter.

At any rate, I don't feel that these particular comments of PG's were slanderous or in any way demeaning of Seton's work; she was validly pointing out a significant aspect of the plot of Devil Water that might cause trouble for some readers. I happen to agree with her assessment, although I realize everyone doesn't.

Is it possible that the priest is misinterpreting the closeness of the relationship between father and daughter? Or even possibly Anya Seton herself not quite realising how this incident would be interpreted? Most people from "normal" family backgrounds back in the early 60s were remarkably innocent and would possibly never have heard of incest as such. As I say it's years since I read the book and I would need to read it again to get a sense of this passage. But I fail to understand why Anya Seton would deliberately attempt to ruin a good story by introducing a strictly taboo subject to a 1962 readership, most of whom would have been outraged at the thought of incest. But if you are correct and the possibility of an unnatural relationship was hinted at ,then that's another good book ruined forever for a lot of people. However I think, even today, most of us could accept incest in a novel involving unsympathetic characters like Caligula or Nero but not involving characters where the author is inviting us to become emotionally involved in their lives as in this novel.Having read most of her other books in which she has never attempted anything like this I can't see why Anya Seton would suddenly deliberately seek in Devil Water to offend or trick her readership.I think the priest was probably a fool.:)

[Michy]

Father Brown was definitely not a "fool," and there are too many other incidents in the book that all add up to something besides pure fatherly affection in Charles for Jenny. There is the fact that both Jenny's stepmother and her husband dislike her relationship with her father. There is another passage I came across (I was looking for the one where her father had kissed her on the mouth) where Jenny is sitting on his lap (she's about 15), her father has had a bit too much to drink, and he is talking about taking her to France and all the wonderful things they'll do there. As Seton worded it, he was talking to her sensuously, like a lover. Then Jenny suddenly said something that broke the spell, and her father felt like cold water had been dumped on him. Then there is the aforementioned kiss on the mouth, and the fact that it made Jenny feel uncomfortable. I am sure there are other examples I could cite, but as I said, it's been over a year since I've read it.

No incest actually took place; Seton had Jenny immigrate to America and that put an end to it. I suppose that is why it didn't ruin the book for me, and also that I was able to "make sense" of Charles and his conflicting feelings, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Besides the fact that I think Jenny is the best heroine Seton created -- that is why Devil Water is one of my favorite Setons.

It is puzzling to me, though, why Seton chose to put this element in her story. There is very little recorded about Charles Radcliffe and nothing about Jenny (there is no written documentation to prove she even existed). So the field was wide open for Seton to interpret their personalities however she wished. Perhaps she thought this would add another layer of "interest" to her story? Or perhaps there was something in the oral history passed down in her family that hinted this was the nature of Charles' relationship with his daughter (Jenny Snowdon was connected to the Seton family several generations back). PG puts a Freudian spin on it, and suggests that Seton's own adulation for her glamorous father might have had something to do with it. I don't go in much for Freud, but who knows.

Since Anya Seton's no longer alive for us to ask, we'll never know.

[BrianPK]

Maybe I'll re-enact the scene from Dead Poet's Society before I read Philippa Gregory's introduction then. ha ha
But its good that she's helped Anya Seton's work be re-published. I've ordered Avalon and Devil Water for my birthday
Hope you enjoy those books as much as I did.Let us know how you get on. I was recently looking at the Amazon.com site (I normally concentrate on the amazon.co.uk one) and was glancing through the customer reviews of Avalon and was quite surprised at the no of people who were downright upset with Philippa Gregory over her belittling introduction.Ignore her intro. to Avalon seems to be the message from people who loved this book.

[Michy]

I think her foreward to Avalon was the one that irked me the most; I felt she was overly-critical of the way Seton structured the novel. I honestly wondered why the publishers included such a half-hearted endorsement of the book.

But the book itself is really good - I love the time period and the setting and the bittersweetness of the story.

[SCW]

I'm reading Avalon now, but I skipped the PG intro.