Historical Arthur

[rex icelingas]

There isnt really a right answer to this,so its a bit of fun and down to your own opinion

Which Author do you believe has come the closest to a Historical Arthur (In personality rather than Geographical location)

Arthur the most praised Duke of Battles of Nennius and the Triads or the numbskull Tyrant of the various Saints lives?
maybe he is the inspirational Anti-Hero of Bernard Cornwall?
the heavy drinking,Bed Hopping Swordsman of Helen Hollick ?
or the flash in the pan war leader of Alfred Duggan?

[Carla]

Interesting question! I imagine my answer would vary depending on my point of view.

If I'm a peasant and he's requistioning my barley to feed his horses (not to mention my daughter to 'entertain' his warband), I bet I think the Saints' Lives are closest. If I'm an up-and-coming warrior in his warband and we've just won Badon, then I'm in the Nennius camp :-)

[SarahWoodbury]

The one I'm writing, of course! Not that it's published or any of you have read it :)

I suspect, honestly, that if he even existed, he was a battle leader/ruler of some kind who had lived a fairly brutal existence. What kind of person does hacking people to death make you? How does anyone survive that kind of life emotionally intact? It's hard to imagine how introspective a person could actually have been under those circumstances.

So, on one hand, the Arthur of the Triads who won battles, gets my vote. The numbskull? Probably not, simply because he wouldn't have made it as far as he did if that were true, and would not have been remembered.

A womanizer? Probably. Loyal to his men? Probably as well. Maybe Bernard Cornwell gets it most historically right. It's been a while since I read his books, but I just finished Agincourt, and that sounds about right.

[Ash]

I have read just about every Arthur story out there. I also think Cornwell comes the closest to my idea, historically and personality wise.

[Volgadon]

I agree about Cornwell's Arthur.

[chuck]

For me it's a toss up between Cornwell's and Jack Whyte's Arthur....Rosemary Sutcliffe's Arthur should be mentioned in your discussions

[Lauryn]

For me it's a toss up between Cornwell's and Jack Whyte's Arthur....Rosemary Sutcliffe's Arthur should be mentioned in your discussions

I liked the Jack Whyte version of this story - not least because it ran to 8 books (if you include Clothar the Frank & Uther). My only critique about his writing is that he never met a female character he couldn't delegate to the wings quickly.

[Anna Elliott]

I liked the Jack Whyte version of this story - not least because it ran to 8 books (if you include Clothar the Frank & Uther). My only critique about his writing is that he never met a female character he couldn't delegate to the wings quickly.

That is one of the reasons I love Cornwell's version of Arthur--the way he handles the female characters. They're so vivid--believable and yet far from the usual stereotypes. And I think his Arthur is wonderfully done, too, of course. :) I love the quote from Arthur's mistress (don't have the book in front of me, so I'm going to get this slightly wrong, I'm sure) where she says that Arthur's character is like a chariot driven by a team of two horses, one his ambition and one his conscience. Brilliant.

[annis]

I'm probably another in the Bernard Cornwell camp, though I do have a very soft spot for Rosemary Sutcliff's interpretation of Arthur (Artos) in "Sword at Sunset"

Does anyone else remember AA Attanasio (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/a/a-a-attanasio/)? He wrote some interesting historical fantasy round the 1980s/90s. I've still got copies of "Wyvern' and "Hunting the Ghost Dancer" somwhere, probably my favourite Attanasio titles. He also wrote an Arthurian series, heavy on the mythology, but quite intriguing.

[cat]

As you guys have already pointed out, the debate over who was the 'Real Arthur' has likely been going on since the Middle Ages and I doubt we'll ever learn the true facts in the matter. *laughs* As a young girl, I was enthralled by the stories of knights in shining armour and the great King Arthur and his round table in Camelot. I grew up and figured out that that was only a fairy tale. However, I didn't sink my teeth into researching the facts and origins of those legends until I went to the cinema and watched the 2004 film King Arthur. Now THAT woke me up and ignited a fire in my belly to learn all that I could in regards to Arthur, and yes I know that film is full of historical inaccuracies too. But it showed me a completely different 'Arthur'. I'm still quite the novice on the subject, but after reading numerous texts on the matter, and enjoying quite a few historical novels along the way...I like the idea of the legends growing out of perhaps two or three soldiers/warlords from the Dark Ages.

So the 'Arthur' given to us by the likes of Cornwell, Hollick and Sutcliff get my vote for sure. Personally, I like Lucius Artorius Castus (140-197) as a good contender for the origins of the tales...along with Ambrosius Aurelianus (430-500) as well. But there is evidence that could rule out even Aurelianus if the dates for the battle of Camlann are accurate enough. Castus of course was around much earlier...but I like to think that his deeds probably fed the early tales of a great warlord or 'King' of the Britons during the Dark Ages that later evolved into the tales of the Knights of Camelot.

A womanizer? Most likely *laughs* He would have had to be charming and very charismatic for such long lasting tales about his exploits to still yet endure. I bet he was handsome too. *g*

[Anna Elliott]

Cat, there's also the very interesting theory of equating Arthur and/or Ambrosius with Riothamus, who is mentioned by the chronicler Jordanes as 'king of the Britons.' There are parallels with the Arthur story--like his battle near the Burgundian town of Avallon, which might have been the basis for the Arthurian connection to Avalon.

I suspect no one will ever prove conclusively who the 'real' Arthur was, but it's certainly fun to track down the various threads of evidence and speculate!

[cat]

I had read about Riothamus possibly being one of the candidates for the real Arthur...have you read Mike Ashley's 'The Mammoth Book of King Arthur'? He gives quite a lot of good arguments and information.

What is your favorite source for information on Arthur? I'm hungry to read more! But it is endless isn't it? *laughs*

[annis]

Posted by cat
What is your favorite source for information on Arthur? I'm hungry to read more! But it is endless isn't it? *laughs*

I'd suggest the Britannia History website, which has links to sources both ld and new:
http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html

Personally I think that though it's fun to speculate about the possibilities of a real Arthur, it's almost better that we don't discover him. The magic of Arthur is the mystery. As Gwyna says in Philip Reeve's excellent teenage novel Here Lies Arthur (http://www.historicalnovels.info/Here-Lies-Arthur.html), “It didn’t matter any longer what the truth about Arthur had been. What mattered was the stories.”

Bernard Cornwell's Thomas Hookton had the right idea when he tossed the Grail into the sea :)

[cat]

I have the Britannia History website bookmarked already as one of my main online resources - great site!

As Gwyna says in Philip Reeve's excellent teenage novel Here Lies Arthur, “It didn’t matter any longer what the truth about Arthur had been. What mattered was the stories.”

That is an excellent way to look at it! For me, it is all about what Arthur represents - uniting Britain and protecting her people from threat. I admire what he stood for more than anything else; a true and noble leader that inspired loyalty and faith. The stories gave people hope, didn't they?

[Anna Elliott]

I loved Here Lies Arthur! And that's exactly it, the Arthurian legends are so powerful because they give us an ideal of courage and nobility to strive for. That's what first and always attracts me to the legends. To answer your question, Cat, I enjoyed Pendragon by Steve Blake and Scott Lloyd, Geoffrey Ashe has of course written many excellent Arthur books, The Mammoth Book of King Arthur is definitely good--gosh, too many to count, really! It's a fascinating subject.

And even though I do the vast, vast majority of my research in books, the Early British Kingdoms website (http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/) is an excellent resource for more information on the period.

[TonyHays]

Jordanes did indeed mention Riothamus, but nearly as importantly, a poet and one-time son-in-law to a Roman emperor, Sidonius Appollinaris wrote a letter to this Riothamus which still exists. The character traits that he attributes to Riothamus - a sense of justice, honor, fairness - could have come straight from Malory. Geoffrey Ashe stakes a good bit on this letter. His book, The Discovery of King Arthur, was released in an updated edition in 2003 by Sutton. Christopher Snyder, who has written some fine books on the history of the post Roman period, has said that this new edition of Ashe's book is one of the most important books published on the historical Arthur in decades.

[cat]

To answer your question, Cat, I enjoyed Pendragon by Steve Blake and Scott Lloyd, Geoffrey Ashe has of course written many excellent Arthur books...

I was also going to add that I'd found Blake and Lloyd's book very insightful too. I have just picked up one of Ashe's texts but haven't had time to read it yet. Glad to know he's on your list as I'm sure I'll find it helpful if you did too!

And even though I do the vast, vast majority of my research in books, the Early British Kingdoms website (http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/) is an excellent resource for more information on the period.

Ooooh! Thank you for that one too! One can never have enough good sources. *laughs* As you said, it's endless!

And to Tony- thank you for the great recommendation in Ashe's work as well. I need to get reading!!

[TonyHays]

I have to acknowledge that Geoffrey and his wife are friends of mine. When I began my own Arthurian project, I wrote Geoffrey and asked if he would see me and let me pick his brain if I came to Glastonbury. He immediately said yes, and in the nearly six years since then, they have become dear friends. But, I had been a fan of his work for years already.

[chuck]

Regarding Arthur.....I always liked this quote..."When the legend become fact print the legend".....BTW annis...I'm reading Horn's "Here Lies Arthur"....really enjoying it....

[annis]

Hi Chuck - glad you're enjoying Here Lies Arthur. I think it a delectably subversive piece of work, and so well written - when I come across bits like -- "my words took flight upon the music and wheeled about like swifts under the roof-beams", I just go "aahhh"!

[chuck]

Hi Chuck - glad you're enjoying Here Lies Arthur. I think it a delectably subversive piece of work, and so well written - when I come across bits like -- "my words took flight upon the music and wheeled about like swifts under the roof-beams", I just go "aahhh"!

I like the fresh POV, the characters live and breathe....Gwyna and Myrddin are special and I like the dark side of Arthur and his companions.....100 pages in.....Enjoying Myrddin's reenactments/ tales especially the Lady of Lake/ the Green Knight are so plausible to perpetuating the glorious myths of Arthur .... And the Dux Britannia is enjoying the game.......Horn has captured the reality of the Dark Ages....It's going to be a quick read....Curious how the Gender issue will work its way out....Thanks again for the mention...

[Anna Elliott]

I like the fresh POV, the characters live and breathe....Gwyna and Myrddin are special and I like the dark side of Arthur and his companions.....100 pages in.....Enjoying Myrddin's reenactments/ tales especially the Lady of Lake/ the Green Knight are so plausible to perpetuating the glorious myths of Arthur .... And the Dux Britannia is enjoying the game.......Horn has captured the reality of the Dark Ages....It's going to be a quick read....Curious how the Gender issue will work its way out....Thanks again for the mention...

Whole heartedly agree, I read it last year and loved it. Isn't it amazing how even though there are SO many King Arthur retellings, it can somehow always be made fresh and new yet again?

[chuck]

"That once was a spot/for one brief shining moment/that was known as Camelot"...Ye Gads! I'm a hopeless Arthurian Romantic...I still believe Arthur and his Companions lie sleeping somewhere.....

[Ashley]

Hey, Cat just gave me that book for my birthday! Glad to hear it's good - I'm really looking forward to it.

I love the Mike Ashley book too as I use it for background info frequently. I have to admit though (and this is probably not the place to do so) but I really don't like researching at all...I love the history and I love reading about the info, but it's usually when someone has recommended something to me versus me going out and finding the information. Yes, terrible, I know. I love the creating side of writing versus the reading, I guess. To each their own. ;)