'Tis easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...

[Richard]

So I was looking online for a contest I could enter my book. I found one for Christian Historical Fiction. Now, by no means do I consider my book to be Christian in the current sense of the word, though it features a very important subject in Christianity. But I clicked anyway. Here are the rules:

The Rules of Christian Fiction:

Prohibited Language- chiefly profanity and familiar expressions that take the Lord's name in vain, other coarse language, other religious expletives, anatomical terms, intimate clothing, and an assortment of other words. A fairly rigorous list of no-no words would include such entries as blimey, breast, butt, crap, damn, devil (except in religious context), fiend, for Heaven's sake, for Pete's sake, geez or jeez, gosh, golly, heck, hell (except in religious context), miracle (unless describing one), pee, priest, poop, passion, sex, shucks, words for undergarments (e.g., bra or panties), and whore.

Prohibited content- explicit sexuality, graphic violence, divorce, and certain behaviors, activities and circumstances that are generally considered to be off-limits in Christian Fiction. These include drinking, dancing, smoking, gambling, bodily functions, nudity, Halloween celebrations, Christian characters lying to each other, and potentially compromising situations (for example, the heroine and hero spending the night together alone in the same house).


Blimey?! Golly?!! PRIEST??!!!1!! Holy s@#[! :eek: Well, I guess my book is disqualified. So, by the way, is the entire Old Testament and much of the New. Now, I personally avoid taking the Lord's name in vain (mere crass profanity is another matter). I also do not slay people in knife-fights or pilfer dead bodies. But I see no reason why I should impose my morality on a bunch of fictional characters! And if the best way that one of them can have some character development is by leading the rest of the crew in a bloody fistfight in a brothel against a bunch of naked fellow customers, well then so be it.

[boswellbaxter]

So I was looking online for a contest I could enter my book. I found one for Christian Historical Fiction. Now, by no means do I consider my book to be Christian in the current sense of the word, though it features a very important subject in Christianity. But I clicked anyway. Here are the rules:
The Rules of Christian Fiction:

Prohibited Language- chiefly profanity and familiar expressions that take the Lord's name in vain, other coarse language, other religious expletives, anatomical terms, intimate clothing, and an assortment of other words. A fairly rigorous list of no-no words would include such entries as blimey, breast, butt, crap, damn, devil (except in religious context), fiend, for Heaven's sake, for Pete's sake, geez or jeez, gosh, golly, heck, hell (except in religious context), miracle (unless describing one), pee, priest, poop, passion, sex, shucks, words for undergarments (e.g., bra or panties), and whore.

Prohibited content- explicit sexuality, graphic violence, divorce, and certain behaviors, activities and circumstances that are generally considered to be off-limits in Christian Fiction. These include drinking, dancing, smoking, gambling, bodily functions, nudity, Halloween celebrations, Christian characters lying to each other, and potentially compromising situations (for example, the heroine and hero spending the night together alone in the same house).


I review some Christian fiction for the Historical Novels Review (and I am by no means a fundamentalist), and I can say that all of the genre is not as restrictive as this contest. I've read Christian historical fiction that breaks all of these rules (except the one about explicit sex). Indeed, the last Christian historical novel I read for review was indistinguishable from a mainstream historical novel--only the imprint (Bethany House) gave it away.

[Volgadon]

Priest? I didn't know priest was a dirty word.
One doesn't have to write the words to convey that the characters were swearing, but the list is ridiculous. As an example, why not write a blaspheming character who gambles, drinks and smokes so the reader can see what that sort of behaviour leads to.

[sweetpotatoboy]

This is amazing. I don't read this genre, but I don't see how you can every character in the book behave absolutely perfectly throughout. How are they supposed to have character development if they're perfect Christians from the outset? Are they not supposed to 'learn' from their errors and be better Christians by the end of their story?

(By the way, I see it's forbidden to have Christian characters lying to each other. Does that mean it's OK for a Christian to lie to a non-Christian??)

[Richard]

To boswellbaxter's point, we have to take this as the rules to one internet contest, and not the published genre. I mean, who would buy a book with nothing in it? I'm sure the published genre has certain standards of decency, which makes sense for the audience. These rules aren't about decency, they're about ignoring reality.

[Misfit]

I'm curious so to who wrote these rules?

I've only read two CF books and both were bought off the Costco bookshelf not realizing they were CF. One was very very bad - cardboard cutout characters and a heroine that could bleed sugar. The other, Measure of a Lady (http://www.amazon.com/Measure-Lady-Novel-Deeanne-Gist/dp/B001CJS6HM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236173593&sr=1-1)was actually quite entertaining and I give the author kudos for taking a risk and writing an edgier novel. There was sexual tension between the two main characters, let alone another ended up as a (horrors!) fallen woman, and it wasn't preachy at all. I wouldn't go searching CF out, but I wouldn't be afraid to try another as long as it was well reviewed.

[MLE]

I'm curious so to who wrote these rules?

I've only read two CF books and both were bought off the Costco bookshelf not realizing they were CF. One was very very bad - cardboard cutout characters and a heroine that could bleed sugar. The other, Measure of a Lady (http://www.amazon.com/Measure-Lady-Novel-Deeanne-Gist/dp/B001CJS6HM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236173593&sr=1-1)was actually quite entertaining and I give the author kudos for taking a risk and writing an edgier novel. There was sexual tension between the two main characters, let alone another ended up as a (horrors!) fallen woman, and it wasn't preachy at all. I wouldn't go searching CF out, but I wouldn't be afraid to try another as long as it was well reviewed.

I read Measure of a Lady on your recommendation, Misfit -- in fact, I hosted it for our church bookgroup -- and while we all thought it was a good read, none of us found it very edgy as far as the Christian Fiction we've been reading lately went. It did sound like the author was channeling Francine River's Redeeming Love (the story of a prostitute in the California gold camps). The thrillers the Christian publishing houses are putting out now (Ted Dekker, Frank Peretti, et al) are pretty much indistiguishable from the 'non Christian' thrillers, except that they tend to refrain from explicit swearing and graphically described sex.

My Muslim friends read Christian fiction because they wish to avoid the graphic sexual content. So do a lot of other non-Christians. If you follow the trade book statistics, you will see that 'Christian fiction' is the most rapidly growing trade-book segment since 2003, probably because the Christian publishers are getting better at providing what the market wants -- and the general publishers are sliding into sleaze that a substantial portion of the market won't buy.

[Misfit]

I read Measure of a Lady on your recommendation, Misfit -- in fact, I hosted it for our church bookgroup -- and while we all thought it was a good read, none of us found it very edgy as far as the Christian Fiction we've been reading lately went.

:):) Well since I've only read two CF and the other was all susy sunshine I didn't have much to compare to. I'll take your word on it.

[LoveHistory]

Priest? I didn't know priest was a dirty word.
One doesn't have to write the words to convey that the characters were swearing, but the list is ridiculous. As an example, why not write a blaspheming character who gambles, drinks and smokes so the reader can see what that sort of behaviour leads to.


My thoughts exactly! How can you possibly tell someone to avoid falling into sin if you don't examine the consequences? The lying, cheating, drinking, gambling, whoring characters are bad guys.

Richard, as to your question about who would buy a book with nothing in it, I have the answer: Jane Austen fans. ;) (I am one, so this shouldn't offend anyone)

[Christina]

My thoughts exactly! How can you possibly tell someone to avoid falling into sin if you don't examine the consequences? The lying, cheating, drinking, gambling, whoring characters are bad guys.



Ah :-), and there lies 'the rub'. Perhaps the consequences are only the results of one person's view of them, which we all took on and began to believe. Now that is absolutely not saying have no morality, but is about questioning the 'agreed upon' morality - the same morality that led to massacres of people of different faiths and the same sugary mentality that led to people believing that suffering is somehow good for us.

Oh! How we have distorted the message of Christ and Christianity and turned it into a million rules, and swamped it with the idea of good guys and bad guys. It's all there in all of us - the whole works of good, bad, beautiful and ugly, isn't it? Maybe the lying, cheating, whoring chararacters were offspring of the overbearing, the hypocritical etc. etc. Nothing is ever quite as it appears, is it? :-)

Take, for example, Bertie, son of Queen Victoria and later King Edward VII. He was a whoring, smoking, drinking sort of fellow but one with a great heart who could not live up to his parents' expectations. His gifts were not appreciated when he was young and he spent the rest of his life compensating for it. Take it back a little further and see his beautiful father, the child of a broken and unhappy marriage, trying to impose a more stable way of life on his son.

If only everything were so simple as 'good guys' 'bad guys', the holy and the sinner, we could all live in boxes and know who we are and feel good or bad about ourselves. The eye of the needle is surely about seeing that these silly notions of whether or not someone can swear or use 'blasphemous' words, or has to be a plaster cast model, just don't hold up to examination.

No one is that simple - thank goodness - and isn't that what the Christ said in touching lepers, mixing with prostitutes and so-called sinners, while the 'holy' looked on askance? :-). So Christian Fiction, if it is really about the message of Christ damned well ought to have swearing and the whole works in it! :-)

[LoveHistory]

The idea that Christians never mess up kind of emphasizes the "fiction" part.

[Michy]

Indeed, the last Christian historical novel I read for review was indistinguishable from a mainstream historical novel--only the imprint (Bethany House) gave it away.

I just stumbled across this thread quite by accident. I know it has been a long time, but.... :) am wondering if you recall the title of the book you mentioned here? Just curious.....

[boswellbaxter]

I just stumbled across this thread quite by accident. I know it has been a long time, but.... :) am wondering if you recall the title of the book you mentioned here? Just curious.....

A Constant Heart by Siri Mitchell. It's been a while since I've read it, but there was very little talk of religion in it as I recall.

[Michy]

I read that one last year. I thought her story idea was pretty good, but the execution was poor. Beautiful cover, though!

I decided to give her another try and found her second book, Love's Pursuit to be much, much better. So after being pleased with that one I bought her latest, She Walks in Beauty and it was even worse than A Constant Heart. Don't know what happened there.

At any rate, I am through trying her books, except perhaps through the library. Maybe.

[Divia]

I read one last year and while it didn't say God God God, it was heavy on the faith aspect. Far too much for me. Find the light, do good, all that stuff.

The thing that dissapoints me is that there are a lot of Christian novels set during the Victorian Era. Too bad I can't stomach them.

[Michy]

I think it's important for everyone to remember that books published by Christian publishing houses (or the "Christian" imprints of major publishing houses) are targeted to a pretty specific audience for whom these books have a strong appeal. For those authors and readers who don't like them for whatever reason, well, guess what; you've got the whole other 98% of the book market and publishing industry to choose from.

[SarahWoodbury]

By the way--on a totally unrelated note to the thread but relevant to the subject quote about the camel--my kids were taking a Farsi class from a native speaker and he offhand mentioned that the bit about the camel going through the eye of the needle was actually a reference to camels needing to get on their knees to go through the 'eye of the needle' which is a colloquial reference to the defensively small entrance to a caravanserai (an inn of a sort in Palestine/the Middle East). So when the Bible says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven . . . it doesn't mean a sewing needle but that a rich man must get on his knees, just like a camel.

Wow. Learn something new every day.

[Michy]

Yes, I'd heard that same thing years ago. Actually, what I'd heard was that the "eye of the needle" was some sort of specific structure in Jerusalem that camels had to get down on their knees to go through. Don't know if that is true, perhaps the truth is a more general reference to the entrances to caravanseries as you mention.

[MLE]

I read one last year and while it didn't say God God God, it was heavy on the faith aspect. Far too much for me. Find the light, do good, all that stuff.

This is different from Little Women how?

[LoveHistory]

Little Women isn't overt about it.

I've heard the "eye of the needle" point from my mother all my life.

[Michy]

I think Little Women is pretty overt, actually. Early in the book Marmee gives each of her girls a Bible for Christmas. There is throughout the book a running analogy comparing the girls' lives to Pilgrim's Progress. The book largely focuses on each of the girls' journey to becoming more virtuous (Jo battles her temper. Amy battles selfishness. Meg battles vanity.). I find Little Women to be pretty moralistic on the whole, but I like it, anyway.

[Divia]

I think it's important for everyone to remember that books published by Christian publishing houses (or the "Christian" imprints of major publishing houses) are targeted to a pretty specific audience for whom these books have a strong appeal. For those authors and readers who don't like them for whatever reason, well, guess what; you've got the whole other 98% of the book market and publishing industry to choose from.

No one is debating the fact. In fact I never said they should stop writing them. Nor did I say they should sex them up. Pretty sure I said that I couldn't stomach them.

This is different from Little Women how?

Little Women isn't as preachy. And while Alcott would call it "moral pap for the young" its pretty tame compaired to the religious novels I struggled though.

While it is about being good and taming the vices one has(quick temper, being vain, etc.) what else would one expect from a Victorian novel aimed at children? In fact it was pretty cutting edge for the time and the girls were seen as more human that a lot of children in novels that were nearly saintly. Lets also remember that Alcott enforces the idea about the perfect Victorian woman. All the girls had to marry in the end, pop out a few kids, yay happiness.

[Michy]

No one is debating the fact. In fact I never said they should stop writing them. Nor did I say they should sex them up. Pretty sure I said that I couldn't stomach them.


My comments weren't directed just at you, you're just the one who triggered my response, I guess. I was speaking to all the prior posts in this thread, many of which are critical of the Christian/Biblical fiction genre because of its restrictive nature. There is a pretty wide variety within the Christian/Biblical fiction genre, ranging from those that have a heavy spiritual element (what some would call "preachy") to those that have almost no spiritual element at all, but are, in fact, much like what is published by any mainstream publisher. What they do all have in common, though, is a lack of profanity, graphic sex, and other things.

The Christian publishers aren't imposing some sort of censorship on their unwitting customers, they are producing product for a target audience that that target audience wants and values. That there is a viable market for such books should be understood and respected, even if one does not agree with it or wish to read or write such books. As I said, there is the whole, huge mainstream industry out there for the vast majority who are not interested in reading or writing these types of works.